Proposal: Rumors & Proposals Thread: Will Holland Hit the Ground Running, or With a Thud?

[Tobias Kahun]

Umm no not everyone can clear the zone under pressure. It’s a skill, and the best dmen make it look effortless.

Off the glass and out isn’t a good way to clear the zone. There’s a reason Russell bleeds shots against and has terrible possession numbers and brings down every teammate. I would hate to play with Russell, a guy who is constantly trying to play goalie and going starfish on the ice taking himself out of the play.

 

[CycloneSweep]

Read through a few pages and I just do not understand why some posters are evaluating Nurse like he is a finished product.
He has played less than 300 NHL games in a less than desirable environment....there is plenty of room for him to grow.
I wouldnt be so quick to give up on a player with his tool set.

He isn't a finished product, has a long way to go though, which is fine.

My whole thing was people shouting how he is already a top pairing defender a d our best defender when he isn't.

He can absolutely be that, but right now he isn't and until he prunes out his bad decision making away from the puck, he will be in hard.

Still don't think we should trade him unless it's in a package for a legit #1 d

 

[guymez]

He isn't a finished product, has a long way to go though, which is fine.

My whole thing was people shouting how he is already a top pairing defender a d our best defender when he isn't.

He can absolutely be that, but right now he isn't and until he prunes out his bad decision making away from the puck, he will be in hard.

Still don't think we should trade him unless it's in a package for a legit #1 d

I agree...he is clearly not a top pairing defender at this point in time. Like you though I see so much room for growth in his game.
I often wonder how much further along Nurse would be if he had a solid vet to mentor him the past few years.

I get that his next contract is going to be a challenge but I look at that this way...I think he had approx 9 -10 points on the PP this season. He is not an answer to the PP IMO. That just isnt a part of his tool set.
So his PP time is going to diminish next season which means his point production is going to drop...that makes his next contract more reasonable.
As a dman that gets 30+ points, can skate (move the puck using his feet), and protects his teammates that makes him a valuable part of this team. Especially when you consider that he is very likely going to get better.

Lastly I would really really like to see this team actually develop a dman and then benefit from that instead of trading him before that happens.

 

[CycloneSweep]

I agree...he is clearly not a top pairing defender at this point in time. Like you though I see so much room for growth in his game.
I often wonder how much further along Nurse would be if he had a solid vet to mentor him the past few years.

I get that his next contract is going to be a challenge but I look at that this way...I think he had approx 9 -10 points on the PP this season. He is not an answer to the PP IMO. That just isnt a part of his tool set.
So his PP time is going to diminish next season which means his point production is going to drop...that makes his next contract more reasonable.
As a dman that gets 30+ points, can skate (move the puck using his feet), and protects his teammates that makes him a valuable part of this team. Especially when you consider that he is very likely going to get better.

My only questioning of his getting better is him.

Last year he was looking solid defensively, contract negotiations clearly didn't go his way as he reportedly wanted the moon, so this year he dropped his defensive game and seemed to focus solely on his offense. This shows he has the ability to have both in his game but it feels like, did he just change his game to try and get more money instead of improving his game for the sake of the team? I know everyone is in some way in it for the money but still.

We will see next year though. Will his offense plummet and this was an outlier year? Will his defense improve?

 

[guymez]

My only questioning of his getting better is him.

Last year he was looking solid defensively, contract negotiations clearly didn't go his way as he reportedly wanted the moon, so this year he dropped his defensive game and seemed to focus solely on his offense. This shows he has the ability to have both in his game but it feels like, did he just change his game to try and get more money instead of improving his game for the sake of the team? I know everyone is in some way in it for the money but still.

We will see next year though. Will his offense plummet and this was an outlier year? Will his defense improve?

This type of thing seemed to be happening with a few of the players. This is a large part of the reason why i want a structure coach like Tippet.
A coach that will clearly define roles for each player that isnt named McDavid or Draisaitl. I am tired of players making unilateral decisions on how they are going to play. Part of that may be that some players are trying to do too much.
In any event clearly defining a role and holding the player accountable is a part of the solution IMO.

 

[CycloneSweep]

This type of thing seemed to be happening with a few of the players. This is a large part of the reason why i want a structure coach like Tippet.
A coach that will clearly define roles for each player that isnt named McDavid or Draisaitl. I am tired of players making unilateral decisions on how they are going to play. Part of that may be that some players are trying to do too much.
In any event clearly defining a role and holding the player accountable is a part of the solution IMO.

That was one idea that I liked with Hitchcock that I hope Tippet can actually implement. "When the player has the puck, they can do what they want, when they don't have it, they do what I want". Promotes offensive creatively while allow a structured system.

 

[guymez]

That was one idea that I liked with Hitchcock that I hope Tippet can actually implement. "When the player has the puck, they can do what they want, when they don't have it, they do what I want". Promotes offensive creatively while allow a structured system.

Totally agree. I really like that phrase.
I think the biggest issue with Hitchcock is that his approach in implementing accountability isnt effective when the team knows that he is very likely a short term solution.

Tippet has a very different approach (from the reports I have heard) but he still stresses accountability. That change in approach (after having to endure Hitchcock) will be embraced IMO.
Especially if Tippet has a 5 year contract...the team knows that he isnt going anywhere for a long while and the accountability is now on them.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

My only questioning of his getting better is him.

Last year he was looking solid defensively, contract negotiations clearly didn't go his way as he reportedly wanted the moon, so this year he dropped his defensive game and seemed to focus solely on his offense. This shows he has the ability to have both in his game but it feels like, did he just change his game to try and get more money instead of improving his game for the sake of the team? I know everyone is in some way in it for the money but still.

We will see next year though. Will his offense plummet and this was an outlier year? Will his defense improve?

I would much rather be settle in to a 30-35 point D who is solid defensively. Especially since most of his points should be coming 5on5 with bouchard coming up in the near future

 

[guymez]

I would much rather be settle in to a 30-35 point D who is solid defensively. Especially since most of his points should be coming 5on5 with bouchard coming up in the near future

100%.
Play Nurse to his strengths...simplify his game. Then I think you will (in due time) see a very solid 2/3 dman.

 

[Spawn]

I’m fed up with “accountability.”

The issue for the oilers hasn’t been coaches not holding players accountable. Or players not holding themselves accountable.

The issue is a crap roster at every position with the exception of Center. And even then we only can only afford to ice 2 real centres in a game.

Dave tippet, ken Hitchcock, Todd McClellan or Todd Nelson. It doesn’t matter who the coach is.

 

[harpoon]

The year we made the playoffs Klefbom was among the top 30 dmen in the league. That’s at the same age as Nurse now. Klefbom has regressed in the last two years if anything. And there’s really no reason to think Nurse is going to be anything more then he is. Tom Gilbert also has his best season early in his career.

My point was the hyperbole man. Nurse is nowhere near the disaster you think he is, and Klefbom isn’t even close to as good as you think he was (is).

 

[SK13]

Klefbom was real good. Top-3o is probably not that big of an exaggeration. If you down the list that far this year you'd probably wind up with Ekholm and Muzzin in that range and that sounds about right for 16-17 Klefbom.

I still like Klefbom more than Nurse tbh, but they're both two prime-aged top-4 defenseman I think fit well short term and long and I would have both in my plans.

 

[Digitalbooya]

My ideal defense core would be:

Klefbom-XXXX
Nurse-XXXX
Jones-Benning

Trade: Larsson, Sekera, Russell, Manning

You trade those guys, that opens up a lot ($15.92m freed or going to better use). Get rid of two extra LD's that are not necessary (yeah, I know Russell *can* play the right side, but still). Trade a black hole offensively (Larsson).

Larsson for Kadri
#8+Sekera for Spurgeon (almost guaranteed to sign with his hometown team, 5yrs $6.5m)
Russell + 4th for Colorado 2019 3rd round pick
Manning --> buried

Net result:

Draisaitl(8.5)-McDavid(12.5)-Kassian(1.95)
RNH(6)-Kadri(4.5)-Pulj(1)
Benson(.808)-Gagner(3.15)-Yamamoto(.894)
Lucic(6)-Brodziak(1.15)-XXXX
Cave(.675)
XXXX

Klefbom(4.17)-Spurgeon (5.2)
Nurse(3.2)-XXXX
Jones(.72)-Benning(1.9)
XXXX

Koskinen(4.5)
XXXX

Cap hit: $66.817m
Cap Ceiling: $83m
Cap Space: $16.183m

Spots to fill: 4th liner (x2), 2nd pair RD (Bouchard? Bear?), depth d (Persson?), starter/backup goalie (Lehner, Mrazek, McElhinney). That's do-able with bonus cap space available. If Bouchard doesn't work for some, then target a guy like Anton Stralman.

Bonus points for finding a taker for Lucic.

Note: Spurgeon trade I foresee people having an issue with. If you see a team that has ample RD or a RD that actually has term left and could use a LD that has a big cap hit and little value then feel free to use that trade instead of mine. Mine is just an example of a trade that *could* work.

 

[harpoon]

^ you have Manning ‘traded’, ‘buried’ and then on your final roster. Which is it?

16-17 Klefbom sure was a stud
How about 17-18 Klefbom?
And 18-19 Klefbom?
Is anyone confident that 19-20 Klefbom is going to be a ‘legit top pair’ guy? I have serious reservations.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

^ you have Manning ‘traded’, ‘buried’ and then on your final roster. Which is it?

16-17 Klefbom sure was a stud
How about 17-18 Klefbom?
And 18-19 Klefbom?
Is anyone confident that 19-20 Klefbom is going to be a ‘legit top pair’ guy? I have serious reservations.

Evaluating by GF% primarily-
in 16/17 the Klef + Larsson duo was very good
in 17/18 the Klef + Larsson duo was terrible, but Larsson was above average when moved away from the bum shoulder Klefbom.
in 18/19 the Klef + Larsson duo was really terrible, but Klefbom put up dominant numbers when he was moved away from Larsson (though the sample size is small)

My opinion is a heatlhy Klefbom with atleast a solid d-partner is a top pairing defender, but with 2 variables that can make for another poor season it's up in the air. Klefbom isn't independently strong enough to carry a top pairing single handedly (few are), he can carry a 2nd pairing with modest help, but the top pairing requires a partner in crime.

 

[Nostradumbass]

Sure that’s why Matt Benning looked like a NHL dman next to Russell and completely lost next to Nurse. As a defenceman, I would hate playing with Nurse who is consistently out of position, reading the play wrong, and giving the puck away in zone, unable to clear. Say what you want about Russell, but the guy can alleviate the in zone pressure. Either by the off the glass and out, or by tipping the puck out of play on a shot.

Nurse - Benning was an extremely reliable 3rd pair in the year we made the playoffs.

 

[Nostradumbass]

My only questioning of his getting better is him.

Last year he was looking solid defensively, contract negotiations clearly didn't go his way as he reportedly wanted the moon, so this year he dropped his defensive game and seemed to focus solely on his offense. This shows he has the ability to have both in his game but it feels like, did he just change his game to try and get more money instead of improving his game for the sake of the team? I know everyone is in some way in it for the money but still.

We will see next year though. Will his offense plummet and this was an outlier year? Will his defense improve?

If I'm a good all-around performer and am told in salary negotiations that I need to improve [x] to get my big raise, guess what I'll be focusing on until I get that raise?

 

[CycloneSweep]

If I'm a good all-around performer and am told in salary negotiations that I need to improve [x] to get my big raise, guess what I'll be focusing on until I get that raise?

Yes but if you put all your effort into that one thing but let everything else fall apart in your work....you ain't getting the raise either

 

[Oilers in NS]

anyone know anything on this fella

Joakim Nygard

Joakim Nygard Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

 

[booyakasha]

go to post #869, and #871 on page 35 of this thread.

 

[Llamamoto]

anyone know anything on this fella

Joakim Nygard

Joakim Nygard Hockey Stats and Profile at hockeydb.com

Fast winger, who's good defensively with nice hands. Could become a solid 3rd line winger. NHL comparable would be Carl Hagelin.

 

[ConnorMcMullet]

Fast winger, who's good defensively with nice hands. Could become a solid 3rd line winger. NHL comparable would be Carl Hagelin.

..or Tobias Rieder.

 

[oilynutz]

Umm no not everyone can clear the zone under pressure. It’s a skill, and the best dmen make it look effortless.

Edit: To put how critical this skill is into perspective. Think about how beneficial it would be if a team could never set up the cycle against you. That’s what being able to clear the zone effectively does. It reduces high percentage scoring chances.

No. Leaving the zone with possession limits high percentage scoring chances. Flipping the puck of the boards is playing on your heels. Good dmen don't use that "skill". Russell also allows zone entry easier then any other dman. Is that a skill?

 

[McDoused]

Nurse - Benning was an extremely reliable 3rd pair in the year we made the playoffs.

Nurse needs to play in the top 4 at some point. It's a waste having him on the 3rd pairing.

I like Benning as a number 6 when their are no injuries but it seems like we always have injuries and hes relied on harder minutes being a number 4 or 5 at times which he cant handle. Either way I dont expect a lot out of a number 6 dman.

Russell right now is a guy that can play anywhere in your defence but is overpaid as a number 5 and relied on as a number 4. Which wouldnt be the worst thing but once again injuries happen. I remember Russell-Sekera being a solid second pairing in the past though.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Yes, because Nurse didn’t make his partners worse when he was on the ice. The guy can’t play defence and piggy backed points off being fed minutes with Mcdavid and Draisaitl. Most overrated Oiler in the history of the Franchise. Even worse then the guys who compared RNH to Gretzky.

About six years ago, from the moment Nurse was drafted you declared that the Oilers “drafted the biggest bust in the draft”.

You’ve hated the player from the get go. At least you’re consistent but people should know that there’s some irrational hate that you have for Nurse.

The fact that you’re lauding Russell, mr Star fish himself, over Nurse makes me question your ability to assess talent.