Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hardyvan123]

I don't think Lindros should go for another round or 2. Definitely feel like he is here to early

The injuries aside, no one has the most impact over any season stretch on the ice than Eric does, or 8 seasons if one includes the National team Olympic one of 92.

Maybe Feds, if one includes 2 way play and playoffs into the equation.

 

[VanIslander]

The eyeball test puts Oates behind Stastny and Perreault; Lindros has a limited career of dominance but then I compare him to Nels Stewart's equally limited career length of dominance and suddenly I have to pause; Gilmour vs. Keon would be a cool analysis; I have usually thought both Abel and Delvecchio lesser light benefactors of the line-ups they were lucky enough to be part of and to feed off of, not as swizzle sticks who make things happen (hence, misleading stats); Fedorov and Francis are really hard to place.

The waters are beginning to muddy...

 

[MXD]

Would it be fair to say that Stewart wasn't really effected by the (great) teammates he had at some point ?

 

[Hardyvan123]

The eyeball test puts Oates behind Stastny and Perreault; Lindros has a limited career of dominance but then I compare him to Nels Stewart's equally limited career length of dominance and suddenly I have to pause; Gilmour vs. Keon would be a cool analysis; I have usually thought both Abel and Delvecchio lesser light benefactors of the line-ups they were lucky enough to be part of and to feed off of, not as swizzle sticks who make things happen (hence, misleading stats); Fedorov and Francis are really hard to place.

The waters are beginning to muddy...

Yes very muddy indeed and I would take Gilmour over Keon, no doubt Dave will appreciate that eh?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Would it be fair to say that Stewart wasn't really effected by the (great) teammates he had at some point ?

Even if he was to some degree it's hard to not have a guy who was top 10, in any era, in goal scoring for 13 consecutive years not in a top 4 this round, despite his weaknesses.

He and Feds are 2 of my top 4 and like VanIsle says it gets muddy after that a bit.

Francis and Gilmour have good cases and strong resumes as well, including great 2 way play.

Keon's offense is really underwhelming, even more so in an era where the competition level was very low it would be interesting to compare him with Francis and Gilmour.

 

[MXD]

Even if he was to some degree it's hard to not have a guy who was top 10, in any era, in goal scoring for 13 consecutive years not in a top 4 this round, despite his weaknesses.

He and Feds are 2 of my top 4 and like VanIsle says it gets muddy after that a bit.

Francis and Gilmour have good cases and strong resumes as well, including great 2 way play.

Keon's offense is really underwhelming, even more so in an era where the competition level was very low it would be interesting to compare him with Francis and Gilmour.

Keon's competition level was very low !?!?

 

[tony d]

Good to see Perreault is here, such a good centre for a long time in the NHL. As to Lindros; I think he belongs here now. Guy had lots of injuries no doubt but when he was on there was not many more dominant than him.

 

[Sturminator]

Keon's competition level was very low !?!?

I'm not entirely sure Hardy knows who Dave Keon is.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Stewart. Abel, Delvecchio

The eyeball test puts Oates behind Stastny and Perreault; Lindros has a limited career of dominance but then I compare him to Nels Stewart's equally limited career length of dominance and suddenly I have to pause; Gilmour vs. Keon would be a cool analysis; I have usually thought both Abel and Delvecchio lesser light benefactors of the line-ups they were lucky enough to be part of and to feed off of, not as swizzle sticks who make things happen (hence, misleading stats); Fedorov and Francis are really hard to place.

The waters are beginning to muddy...

Nels Stewart. Limited career dominance? Led NHL in goals in his rookie season, age 23 and 1936-37 at age 34(tied with Larry Aurie):

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stewane01.html

Larger rosters starting with the 1929-30 season allowed teams to rotate 2-3 lines. The reduced ice time impacted Nels Stewart the most.

Sid Abel and Alex Delvecchio. Impacted the most by their ability to play two positions especially LW, in the pre expansion era the lowest scoring of the forward positions with the greatest defensive responsibilities.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

The injuries aside, no one has the most impact over any season stretch on the ice than Eric does, or 8 seasons if one includes the National team Olympic one of 92.

Maybe Feds, if one includes 2 way play and playoffs into the equation.

Lindrps was amazing no doubt, but the injuries really hurt him (no pun intended) in rankings like this. If it wasn't for injuries, he would be on the list already, maybe even top 20

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The eyeball test puts Oates behind Stastny and Perreault; Lindros has a limited career of dominance but then I compare him to Nels Stewart's equally limited career length of dominance and suddenly I have to pause; Gilmour vs. Keon would be a cool analysis; I have usually thought both Abel and Delvecchio lesser light benefactors of the line-ups they were lucky enough to be part of and to feed off of, not as swizzle sticks who make things happen (hence, misleading stats); Fedorov and Francis are really hard to place.

The waters are beginning to muddy...

He was top 5 in goals 8 times. 13 times top 10. Two Hart trophies. I believe when he retired he was number 1 in goals scored.

Not sure anyone in the voting now had long stretches of dominance. That said, at this point Stewart & Lindros are my top 2.

 

[thom]

I know it does not mean a lot of you but Scotty Bowman has Dave Keon is his top 20 players of all time and he is in THN top 100 just sayin.Stats are important but you had to seen him and had talked to his teamates and opposing players.I have him in my top 60 and my top 15 centerman

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The eyeball test puts Oates behind Stastny and Perreault;

It's not just your eyeballs; the eyeballs of the people voting on the awards seem to agree.

Lindros has a limited career of dominance but then I compare him to Nels Stewart's equally limited career length of dominance and suddenly I have to pause;

2 differences:

1) even during Lindros' short prime, he routinely missed a fair amount of games in both the regular season and playoffs, and if there was ever a player you could blame for his own injuries, it was Eric Lindros.

2) after Stewart's period of dominance (late 20s, maybe first few years of the 30s), he had almost a decade as a top goal scorer who didn't get anyawards recognition. *Even if Stewart spent most of the 30s as something of a goal scoring compiler, he was still scoring them at a high enough rate to add considerable career value.

Gilmour vs. Keon would be a cool analysis;

Gilmour is a fair amount ahead in regular season stats for whatever that is worth. *

I have usually thought both Abel and Delvecchio lesser light benefactors of the line-ups they were lucky enough to be part of and to feed off of, not as swizzle sticks who make things happen (hence, misleading stats);

The awards voters agree with you about Delvecchio. *Both the Hart voters and the Sport magazine panel disagree with you about Abel - selecting him the most valuable / best Red Wing in both 1948-49 and 1949-50 when Howe and Lindsay were quite young. It's why I generally rank Abel above Delvecchio. *

Overpass showed Delvecchio still scored at a high clip even when he didn't play with Howe, but I think we still need to give some credence to what people who saw them play thought.*

Fedorov and Francis are really hard to place.

The waters are beginning to muddy...

Indeed. *Can we just add Stewart (and maybe Abel) this round and then just bump everyone else to next round? *

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Reposting Sturm's table with current candidates bolded...

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2013):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.1
2 | Phil Esposito | 123.4
3 | Mario Lemieux | 120.4
4 | Jean Beliveau | 108.9
5 | Stan Mikita | 108.1
6| Bill Cowley* | 103.5
7 | Marcel Dionne | 103.2
8 | Howie Morenz | 102.8
9 | Joe Sakic | 97.9
10 | Frank Boucher | 95.4
11 | Elmer Lach* | 95.4
12 | Max Bentley* | 94.9
13 | Steve Yzerman | 93.5
14 | Bryan Trottier | 93.5
15 | Joe Thornton | 93.3
16 | Syl Apps Sr | 93
17 | Peter Forsberg | 90.9
18 | Nels Stewart | 90.5
19 | Sidney Crosby | 90.4
20 | Adam Oates | 90.2
21 | Marty Barry | 89.9
22 | Mark Messier | 89.5
23 | Norm Ullman | 88.7
24 | Jean Ratelle | 88.5
25 | Peter Stastny | 88.3 26 | Sid Abel | 87.8
27 | Bobby Clarke | 87.6
28 | Ron Francis | 87.6
29 | Milt Schmidt | 87.5
30 | Henri Richard | 86.2
31 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
32 | Denis Savard | 85.4
33 | Eric Lindros | 85.4 34 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9 35 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
36 | Darryl Sittler | 84.1
37 | Clint Smith* | 82.6
38 | Mats Sundin | 82.3
39 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3
40 | Pierre Turgeon | 82.3
41 | Mike Modano | 81.7
42 | Henrik Sedin | 81.7
43 | Jeremy Roenick | 81.5
44 | Ted Kennedy | 81.5
45 | Sergei Fedorov | 81
46 | Bernie Nicholls | 80.3
47 | Cooney Weiland | 79.4
48 | Pavel Datsyuk | 78.9
49 | Pat LaFontaine | 78.8
50 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
... | ... | ...
69 | Dave Keon | 73.2

*denotes wartime star
#now updated with 2012-13 data

I don't really understand some of the early support for Gilbert Perreault. By this metric he isn't that impressive offensively, and doesn't bring much else to the table. The only guys behind him in this metric have excellent to elite defensive games and are phenomenal playoff performers. When comparing his AS record to more modern players, one has to wonder what it would look like had Maltsev and Petrov been in the NHL. As of right now, he will not be in my top 8, and may stay there for a while.

Looking forward to a Gilmour/Fedorov/Keon comparison

 

[seventieslord]

Agree on Ullman and it shows that we are a bit of a religious group here as the Lord was behind him eh?

and what was the case against him, exactly?

Lindrps was amazing no doubt, but the injuries really hurt him (no pun intended) in rankings like this. If it wasn't for injuries, he would be on the list already, maybe even top 20

top-20? Try top-10!


ok, let me start by asking this. Can anyone make a strong case for oates or Francis over Gilmour? I personally do not see it.

other preliminary thoughts:
Fedorov = Gilmour > Francis > Oates
Stewart gets in now
Abel > Delvecchio

other than that, what else?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

other preliminary thoughts:
Fedorov = Gilmour > Francis > Oates
Stewart gets in now
Abel > Delvecchio

other than that, what else?

This is about where I am right now also. Having a tough time placing Keon...Right now I have him in the Fedorov/Gilmour tier, but not sure if he's at the top or bottom

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

and what was the case against him, exactly?



top-20? Try top-10!


ok, let me start by asking this. Can anyone make a strong case for oates or Francis over Gilmour? I personally do not see it.

other preliminary thoughts:
Fedorov = Gilmour > Francis > Oates
Stewart gets in now
Abel > Delvecchio

other than that, what else?

At his peak, there is a case for Gilmour being the best of the lot this time. But that's only 2 years in Toronto.

At 18 years of age, Ron Francis rookie season of 59-25-43-68 on a terrible team.
Gilmour breaks in at 20, puts up 80-25-28-53.

At 38, Francis puts up 80-27-50-77 9th in scoring, 4th in assists in the league.
Gilmour never put up 77 points in a season after age 33.

Each player has a Selke, but Francis has 3 Lady Byngs.

Francis is 2nd all-time in assists, 4th in points, 26th in goals, 40th in points per game.
Gilmour is 13th in assists, 18th in points, 56th in goals, 77th in points per game.

Francis was on two Cup winners, Gilmour one.

They are 2 moths apart in age, so they played in exactly the same era.

 

[seventieslord]

At his peak, there is a case for Gilmour being the best of the lot this time. But that's only 2 years in Toronto.

At 18 years of age, Ron Francis rookie season of 59-25-43-68 on a terrible team.
Gilmour breaks in at 20, puts up 80-25-28-53.

At 38, Francis puts up 80-27-50-77 9th in scoring, 4th in assists in the league.
Gilmour never put up 77 points in a season after age 33.

Each player has a Selke, but Francis has 3 Lady Byngs.

Francis is 2nd all-time in assists, 4th in points, 26th in goals, 40th in points per game.
Gilmour is 13th in assists, 18th in points, 56th in goals, 77th in points per game.

Francis was on two Cup winners, Gilmour one.

They are 2 moths apart in age, so they played in exactly the same era.

and if Francis never goes to Pittsburgh and gets his stats bosted by Jagr?

Gilmour had four playoffs better than any Francis ever had. He also had three regular seasons better than Francis ever had.

Think about it, was there ever a time when they were both in their primes that more NHL GMs would have preferred to have Francis over Gilmour?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Conversely

and if Francis never goes to Pittsburgh and gets his stats bosted by Jagr?

Gilmour had four playoffs better than any Francis ever had. He also had three regular seasons better than Francis ever had.

Think about it, was there ever a time when they were both in their primes that more NHL GMs would have preferred to have Francis over Gilmour?

Yet the same GMs were also very quick to move Doug Gilmour for a variety of reasons. True that someone always wanted him but.............

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

and if Francis never goes to Pittsburgh and gets his stats bosted by Jagr?

Gilmour had four playoffs better than any Francis ever had. He also had three regular seasons better than Francis ever had.

Think about it, was there ever a time when they were both in their primes that more NHL GMs would have preferred to have Francis over Gilmour?

Which 3 regular seasons were those?

I'm sure there were GMs that would have preferred Francis at certain points.

In 89-90 Francis outscored Gilmour 101-91 while playing with Hartford while Gilmour was playing for the defending Cup champions in Calgary. And considering who they played for, Francis's +13 was much more impressive than Gilmour's +20.

 

[overpass]

and if Francis never goes to Pittsburgh and gets his stats bosted by Jagr?

Gilmour had four playoffs better than any Francis ever had. He also had three regular seasons better than Francis ever had.

Think about it, was there ever a time when they were both in their primes that more NHL GMs would have preferred to have Francis over Gilmour?

You could argue Francis returned more in trade in 1991 than Gilmour in 1992. Although both were very good deals for the teams that received them.

When they were free agents in 1998, they got pretty similar contracts. 3/18 for Gilmour and 4/20.8 for Francis.

 

[thom]

Just asking why was Francis barely a plus player in career

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Just asking why was Francis barely a plus player in career

He was -71 by the time he was 21 years old.

That's what playing for the Whalers will do for you.

In the playoffs, for his career, Francis was +28, Gilmour +27.

 

[thom]

Thanks for the comparison

 

[seventieslord]

Which 3 regular seasons were those?

the three seasons he was top-5 in hart voting and top-10 in NHL scoring: 1987, 1993, 1994.