Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Centers)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the centers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 centers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
bigbuffalo313; BillyShoe1721; Canadiens1958; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; hardyvan123; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jigglysquishy; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; reckoning; Rob Scuderi; seventieslord; Sturminator; tarheelhockey; ted1971; the edler; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Vote 8 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, Jan 4 at 10PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Friday, Jan 3.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should either resubmit it or contact the person collecting ballots to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Vote 8 will be for places 28 through 32 (5 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 11 eligible candidates for Vote 8. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Sid Abel
Alex Delvecchio
Sergei Fedorov
Ron Francis
Doug Gilmour
Dave Keon
Eric Lindros
Adam Oates
Gilbert Perreault
Nels Stewart
Peter Stastny

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

NHL All-Star Teams (1st, 2nd, and 3rd) 1930-31 to 2012-13

Third Team All Stars are unofficial, but derived from the same voting that gives us the First and Second Team All Stars. I was able to award a 3rd Team All Star in every year but 1941, 1952, 1953, and 1958

Note on Sid Abel = he was a LW in the NHL before the War, and was converted to C shortly after coming back. For him, the second numbers are his totals including his 2nd Team AS as a LW.

Note on Alex Delvecchio = he spent 2 years as a LW with Ullman and Howe before moving back to C. For him, the second numbers are his totals including his 2nd Team AS as a LW.

Player | First | Second | Third | Total
Wayne Gretzky | 8 | 7 | 1 | 16
Jean Beliveau | 6 | 4 | 1 | 11
Mario Lemieux | 5 | 4 | 0 | 9
Stan Mikita | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Phil Esposito | 6 | 2 | 0 | 8
Bobby Clarke | 2 | 2 | 3 | 7
Bill Cowley | 4 | 1 | 1 | 6
Syl Apps | 2 | 3 | 1 | 6
Milt Schmidt | 3 | 1 | 2 | 6
Henri Richard | 1 | 3 | 2 | 6
Norm Ullman | 1 | 1 | 4 | 6
Ted Kennedy | 0 | 3 | 3 | 6
Elmer Lach | 3 | 2 | 0 | 5
Joe Sakic | 3 | 0 | 2 | 5
Marcel Dionne | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Bryan Trottier | 2 | 2 | 1 | 5
Sidney Crosby | 2 | 1 | 2 | 5
Joe Thornton | 1 | 2 | 2 | 5
Gilbert Perreault | 0 | 2 | 3 | 5
Peter Forsberg | 3 | 0 | 1 | 4
Frank Boucher* | 3 | 1 | 0 | 4
Hooley Smith* | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Max Bentley | 1 | 1 | 2 | 4
Dave Keon | 0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Steven Stamkos |0 | 2 | 2 | 4
Sid Abel |2|1(2)|0|3(4)
Evgeni Malkin | 3 | 0 | 0 | 3
Howie Morenz* | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3
Mark Messier | 2(4) | 0(1) | 1 | 3(6)
Eric Lindros | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Steve Yzerman | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3
Neil Colville | 0 | 2(3) | 1 | 3(4)
Peter Stastny | 0 |0 | 3 | 3
Ron Francis | 0 |0 | 3 | 3
...
Doug Gilmour |0|0|2|2
Alex Delvecchio |0|1(2)|0|1(2)
Sergei Fedorov |1|0|0|1
Adam Oates |0|1|0|1

Nels Stewart won 2 Hart Trophies before 1930-31. The highest he finished in All-Star voting was 4th in 1930-31 (when he was also 5th in Hart voting).

Note on Sergei Fedorov = The only time Fedorov finished top 3 in All-Star voting was when he won the Hart in 1993-94. 1995-96 did have insane competition for center, however, and Fedorov was 5th in Hart voting that year. I believe that Fedorov spent part of 1995-96 as RW on the Russian Five unit.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hart voting Records

We have Hart voting for every year of the careers of every player here

As before, a number below listed in italics indicates a voting points total of less than 10% of the leader.

*indicates a year before 1926-27 when there was still a large amount of talent in the Western leagues (Stewart) or one of the two worst War years (1943-44 and 1944-45 for Lach and Cowley).

Players are listed in rough chronological order

Nels Stewart: 1, 1*, 5

Sid Abel: 1, 4

Alex Delvecchio: 9, 13
Dave Keon: 4, 6

Gilbert Perreault: 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 13

Peter Stastny: 4, 7, 7, 11, 11
Ron Francis: 6, 15
Adam Oates: 4, 12
Doug Gilmour: 2, 4, 5

Sergei Fedorov: 1, 5, 9
Eric Lindros 1, 3, 6, 9

Alex Delvecchio never received more than a handful of Hart votes. Francis' one season of Hart recognition (where he barely crossed the 10% threshold required to have his number bolded) was actually his age 38 season in 2002 in Carolina. Oate's one season of significant Hart recognition was during his career season in 1992-93, also the only season Oates finished top 3 in All-Star voting.

 

[MXD]

I like Oates and Gilmour as newcomers. Can't tell where they'll end up, but I'll say they absolutely have a chance at being part of my top8.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Maltsev ??

carryover from an earlier draft. properly deleted now.

I have a draft version of that post with like 20 names on it now and I delete the ones who aren't available yet. Missed that one.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

I don't think Lindros should go for another round or 2. Definitely feel like he is here to early

 

[MXD]

carryover from an earlier draft. properly deleted now.

I have a draft version of that post with like 20 names on it now and I delete the ones who aren't available yet. Missed that one.

Okay, NP.

I was in pretty sure it was such kind of mistake, but I really wanted to make sure there was nobody missing on the "candidates" list.

Speaking of which -- were looks ng to get 5guys un again ?

 

[Appleyard]

Did Lindros not get 5 Hart top 10's?

1993: 9th
1995: 1st
1996: 3rd
1997: 9th
1999: 6th

Though I get why 93 would be excluded!

Although Stastney got only 1 vote more than Lindros in both 81 and 84 and his two 11th places are included, as Crosby was with his 17th place and Perrault in 71 and 72. Is it simply only multiple Hart votes count in these lists?

Understandable if so.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Did Lindros not get 5 Hart top 10's?

1993: 9th
1995: 1st
1996: 3rd
1997: 9th
1999: 6th

Though I get why 93 would be excluded!

Although Stastney got only 1 vote more than Lindros in both 81 and 84 and his two 11th places are included, as Crosby was with his 17th place and Perrault in 71 and 72. Is it simply only multiple Hart votes count in these lists?

Understandable if so.

I never count a single vote for any award that is voted on by the writers - it is likely to just be a homer vote. Excluding a year when a player received a single vote is common practice here.

Okay, NP.

I was in pretty sure it was such kind of mistake, but I really wanted to make sure there was nobody missing on the "candidates" list.

Speaking of which -- were looks ng to get 5guys un again ?

Yes, we need to add 5 guys one of these rounds to catch up to where we are supposed to be.

 

[MXD]

I never count a single vote for any award that is voted on by the writers - it is likely to just be a homer vote.



Yes, we need to add 5 guys one of these rounds to catch up to where we are supposed to be.

As long as we don't reach to get to 5, that's fine with me.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Personal preliminary thoughts -

I had Nels Stewart the highest of these remaining guys last time, and he starts this round my #1 this time. As last time, I will be open to good arguments to rank other players above the big slug.

On my preliminary list, I had Abel, Ullman, Fedorov, and Gilmour back to back. I saw that I was underrating Ullman, but as of now, is there any real big difference between Abel, Fedorov, and Gilmour? The three of them have a good shot at my top 5 in that order.

After those 4, the All-Star record of Perreault and the combination of Keon's All-Star record and playoffs start to look appealing. As does the scoring record and year to year consistency of Alex Delvecchio, who apparently was able to do it without Howe at times. Last time, I had Keon in my 8th spot over Delvecchio because of a better awards record, but it was an awfully tough decision.

A shame that Thornton isn't available yet - he has arguably both the most impressive Hart record and All-Star record of anyone available. Currently, I have him, Perreault, and Stastny all in the same tier. I also wish the great Soviet Maltsev were available, especially considering how close he was to Top 100 players Valeri Kharlamov and Boris Mikhailov. But enough about those guys.

Lindros should be a controversial subject. For me, his prime was just so short that combined with a somewhat disappointing playoff resume, that I struggle to see why he is better than Malkin (who is unavailable).

I think it's a little too early for Oates. Great statistics, great year-to-year consistency, and he knew how to make his wingers better. But I just see him as lacking the star power of some others - 2nd Team All-Star in his career season but didn't receive serious awards consideration in other other season, never picked for a best-on-best tournament. I see Hawerchuk as perhaps a good comparable for Oates.

 

[MXD]

I admit I somewhat praised Oates, but his Hart voting results is indeed awfully thin. I don't bother that much with the fact that he wasn't chosen for best on best competition. This is 30-to-40 material, he's Canadian and Canada sometimes has a tendency to go with supporting specialists.

Perreault is also showing a wee bit better than expected at first glance.

This said, something has to be said about the fact he put up these numbers in what was possibly NHL's weakest few years and that he didn't do much outside of these.

 

[ted2019]

Should be interesting to see on where Big E sits with the voters.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There is a grand total of 17 players who have multiple Hart trophies. Nels Stewart is one of them. But he's not in the top 27 centers.

No Malkin or Maltsev even up for a vote yet. But Norm Ullman is a top 25 center? Very disappointing.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Personal preliminary thoughts -

I had Nels Stewart the highest of these remaining guys last time, and he starts this round my #1 this time. As last time, I will be open to good arguments to rank other players above the big slug.

On my preliminary list, I had Abel, Ullman, Fedorov, and Gilmour back to back. I saw that I was underrating Ullman, but as of now, is there any real big difference between Abel, Fedorov, and Gilmour? The three of them have a good shot at my top 5 in that order.

After those 4, the All-Star record of Perreault and the combination of Keon's All-Star record and playoffs start to look appealing. As does the scoring record and year to year consistency of Alex Delvecchio, who apparently was able to do it without Howe at times. Last time, I had Keon in my 8th spot over Delvecchio because of a better awards record, but it was an awfully tough decision.

A shame that Thornton isn't available yet - he has arguably both the most impressive Hart record and All-Star record of anyone available. Currently, I have him, Perreault, and Stastny all in the same tier. I also wish the great Soviet Maltsev were available, especially considering how close he was to Top 100 players Valeri Kharlamov and Boris Mikhailov. But enough about those guys.

Lindros should be a controversial subject. For me, his prime was just so short that combined with a somewhat disappointing playoff resume, that I struggle to see why he is better than Malkin (who is unavailable).

I think it's a little too early for Oates. Great statistics, great year-to-year consistency, and he knew how to make his wingers better. But I just see him as lacking the star power of some others - 2nd Team All-Star in his career season but didn't receive serious awards consideration in other other season, never picked for a best-on-best tournament. I see Hawerchuk as perhaps a good comparable for Oates.

Can't say the same for Francis?

When Joe Thornton comes up, I can see we will do battle over his placement.

 

[goeb]

I like Francis and Oates, but I will admit I have more of a recency bias there.

 

[amnesiac]

I know were not supposed to mention others, but I guess I was way off thinking Mickey MacKay was in the 15-20 range! After reading about him I thought he was the best player of his time/league.

 

[Appleyard]

I never count a single vote for any award that is voted on by the writers - it is likely to just be a homer vote. Excluding a year when a player received a single vote is common practice here.



Yes, we need to add 5 guys one of these rounds to catch up to where we are supposed to be.

Makes sense! I thought it would be along those lines.

 

[pluppe]

I I think it is weird that Malkin is not available yet. In my eyes he would be close to a lock this round and even though I agree Crosby is a step above the separation is soon to be indefensible. I also agree with tdmm that he would compare very favorable to Lindros.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I I think it is weird that Malkin is not available yet. In my eyes he would be close to a lock this round and even though I agree Crosby is a step above the separation is soon to be indefensible. I also agree with tdmm that he would compare very favorable to Lindros.

In my eyes Malkin should have been a lock last round.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Let's try to focus on the guys available this round (I realize that I'm one of the first ones to complain about lack of certain names, so there is a little leeway here obviously).

I will say that there will be a lot of posters (myself included) who will be very happy with the names who appear NEXT round. But for now, let's try to get through the current crop, allright?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Here are the career spans of the top 27 guys

pre-1904: none
1904: one
1905-09: two
1910-11: three
1912-20: four
1921-22: five
1923: six
1924: five
1925-27: four
1928-30: three
1931-33: two
1934-35: three
1936-37: five
1938: four
1939: three
1940-41: four
1942-47: six
1948: five
1949: four
1950-55: five
1956-62: four
1963-68: five
1969-70: six
1971: seven
1972-74: six
1975-77: six
1978-80: seven
1981: six
1982: five
1983: six
1984: seven
1985-87: six
1988-89: seven
1990-1993: six
1994: seven
1995-1999: six
2000-2006: five
2007-09: three
2010-11: two
2012-13: one

We definitely had a lot of 70s, 80s, and 90s players in our top 20, but after adding 7 more names, it seems to have evened out much more. The 1969-1999 era is still the most represented, but only by a little bit, and no more than can be explained by the expanding talent pool.

I'm bolding periods of four or fewer guys for more than 1 consecutive year. The early years (weaker talent pool) and later years (still active players without full careers) are easy to explain. 1938-1941 is considered a fairly weak time. 1956-62 was a strong era, but perhaps it was very wing-heavy. IF we are underrepresenting any era, it would appear to be the late 20s/early 30s (the era of Morenz, Boucher, Nels Stewart, and Hooley Smith).

 

[MXD]

38-42 = guys who ended up being good in that period saw the war cut their prime.

 

[Hardyvan123]

There is a grand total of 17 players who have multiple Hart trophies. Nels Stewart is one of them. But he's not in the top 27 centers.

No Malkin or Maltsev even up for a vote yet. But Norm Ullman is a top 25 center? Very disappointing.

Agree on Ullman and it shows that we are a bit of a religious group here as the Lord was behind him eh?

Stewart is a tough case, I had him in my top 8 and will probably have him in my top 4 but outside of being a really good scorer was he really much else?

Malkin would have been interesting this round and should probably be up before Malstev but who knows.

And Eric is a tough case, guys with probably the highest pure peak, in terms of impact of all candidates this round but a divisive guy if there ever was one.

Gilbert as well, some great offensive numbers but in a weak era, hard to place him in the group.

I won't even bother commenting on feds as guys have pretty much relegated him as far as he will drop....right?

Maybe not who knows.