Round 2, Vote 8 (2009 update)

[FissionFire]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 15 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 10 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (34):
BM67, Canadiens Fan, cottonking, DaveG, Dennis_Bonvie, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, Jekyll, Jungosi, Kyle McMahon, lextune, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, NOTENOUGHBREWER, overpass, papershoes, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, quoipourquoi, Radovsky, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shirtless Joe, Spitfire11, Sturminator, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGoldenJet, tommygunn, Triffy, ushvinder, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

Click to read more...

 

[FissionFire]

*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 8 will begin now and debates will run through Sunday 9/27. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Sunday 9/27, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots. Please submit all ballots via PM to FissionFire or email them to [email protected]

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 15 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 8 will be for places 71 through 80 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Johnny Bower
Frank Brimsek
Bill Cowley
Anatoli Firsov
Bill Gadsby
Brett Hull
Dave Keon
Elmer Lach
Al MacInnis
Frank Nighbor
Bernie Parent
Borje Salming
Peter Stastny
Scott Stevens
Nels Stewart

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Nighbor is #1 on my list and no argument will dissuade it.

The rest should be interesting.

 

[tommygunn]

Nighbor is #1 on my list and no argument will dissuade it.

Nighbor should be #1 on everyone's list. He should have been up for consideration 5 rounds ago...

 

[MXD]

Nighbor should be #1 on everyone's list. He should have been up for consideration 5 rounds ago...

Sorry, but no.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Nighbor should be #1 on everyone's list. He should have been up for consideration 5 rounds ago...

That's it. Lets stay open-minded.

 

[MXD]

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Johnny Bower
Frank Brimsek
Bill Cowley
Anatoli Firsov
Bill Gadsby
Brett Hull
Dave Keon
Elmer Lach
Al MacInnis
Frank Nighbor
Bernie Parent
Borje Salming
Peter Stastny
Scott Stevens
Nels Stewart

Wow, I think I had like 7 of the newcomers...
- Right away : Bill Cowley is 15th, and will probably remain there until the end of the whole voting process, unless a guy like Bobrov comes up.
- The top placements will be rather goalie-heavy.
- It's right for Elmer Lach to become available for voting at this point, but I think it's a little too early for him. He should get voted in ahead of his former linemate, though.

 

[tommygunn]

That's it. Lets stay open-minded.

I wasn't the first to say it.. and won't be the last. But, obviously we're in the minority..

 

[MXD]

I wasn't the first to say it.. and won't be the last. But, obviously we're in the minority..

It's just that there's a difference between stating that a guy should get voted in (as I did with Seibert and Moore, amongst others) and stating that everybody should have X guy first. It happens that I'm amongst those who won't have Nighbor first.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I don't usually come into a round with my #1 set in stone, but in this case it will indeed be Nighbor without question.

The "Pembroke Peach" was possibly the game's best offensive and defensive forward in his heyday. He was considered a great defensive center, one of the first great playmaking centers, and was also one of the game's best goal scorers.

Nighbor tied for the NHA goal-scoring lead in 1917 with Joe Malone, and had 4th and 7th place finishes as well. He was 3rd in PCHA goals in 1915. In the NHL, Nighbor has three top-five finishes in both goals and points, and five top-three finishes in assists. Well past his prime, Nighbor nonetheless won the league's first Hart Trophy in 1924.

Nighbor was dominant in both the 1915 and 1920 Stanley Cup series, and won five Stanley Cups in all. Along with Benedict and Denneny, both already on the list, Nighbor was crucial to Ottawa becoming the NHL's first dynasty.

As far as comparables, other centers who combined offense and defense to the extent Nighbor did would be Bobby Clarke and Milt Schmidt, long since voted onto the list.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't usually come into a round with my #1 set in stone, but in this case it will indeed be Nighbor without question.

The "Pembroke Peach" was possibly the game's best offensive and defensive forward in his heyday. He was considered a great defensive center, one of the first great playmaking centers, and was also one of the game's best goal scorers.

Nighbor tied for the NHA goal-scoring lead in 1917 with Joe Malone, and had 4th and 7th place finishes as well. He was 3rd in PCHA goals in 1915. In the NHL, Nighbor has three top-five finishes in both goals and points, and five top-three finishes in assists. Well past his prime, Nighbor nonetheless won the league's first Hart Trophy in 1924.

Nighbor was dominant in both the 1915 and 1920 Stanley Cup series, and won five Stanley Cups in all. Along with Benedict and Denneny, both already on the list, Nighbor was crucial to Ottawa becoming the NHL's first dynasty.

As far as comparables, other centers who combined offense and defense to the extent Nighbor did would be Bobby Clarke and Milt Schmidt, long since voted onto the list.

I won't vote Nighbor #1 here, but I'm sure he'll be in my top 10. Sway me.

As for offensively, the numbers say he wasn't as good as Lalonde, Malone, Denneny, Cyclone Taylor or Babe Dye (talk about a snubbed star).

Not sure how they voted back then, but in his Hart Trophy year he was 10th in goals and 8th in scoring, while his linemate Denneny led the league in both. That would lead to some questioning in today's game.

 

[tommygunn]

It's just that there's a difference between stating that a guy should get voted in (as I did with Seibert and Moore, amongst others) and stating that everybody should have X guy first. It happens that I'm amongst those who won't have Nighbor first.

There's no difference at all really. I made my opinion known, you make yours.

If you've been following the other voting rounds, you're aware that a few of us have been chomping at the bit for Nighbor's name to come up. I strongly feel it's an injustice his name hasn't been up for voting until now.

Anyways, I stand by my original comment.. obviously you have a differing opinion.

And having said that.. just what is your opinion of him? Where will you have him in this round? And why?

Others will probably state Nighbor's case more eloquently than I could hope to.. but, I'll try to add things if I see omissions are made.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I won't vote Nighbor #1 here, but I'm sure he'll be in my top 10. Sway me.

As for offensively, the numbers say he wasn't as good as Lalonde, Malone, Denneny, Cyclone Taylor or Babe Dye (talk about a snubbed star).

Not sure how they voted back then, but in his Hart Trophy year he was 10th in goals and 8th in scoring, while his linemate Denneny led the league in both. That would lead to some questioning in today's game.

I got a little ahead of myself. It would have been more accurate to say he was arguably the best offensively in 1917 (when he led the NHA in goals with Malone), and one of the best offensively throughout much of his career.

In The Trail, Coleman writes:

"There is no player in professional hockey who stood higher in the estimation of the experts and fans for general all-round ability combined with clean play and gentlemanly conduct on and off the ice than Frank Nighbor."

He goes on to say:

"Skating backward and waving his stick in wandlike fashion, preparatory for use in his devastating poke check, was also a marvel of coordination. It was hard for his admirers to make up their minds at which he was best, offense or defense."

In terms of forwards in this round, I fail to see how he isn't the top choice. He matches Keon defensively and far exceeds him offensively. He is probably about even with Cowley and Stastny offensively, but easily superior in his own end of the rink. Nels Stewart was a better goal-scorer without question, but by all accounts a huge defensive liability. Brett Hull is similarly a better goal scorer, but well below Nighbor in all other areas. Nighbor was a superior goal scorer to Lach, and I'll assume he was a better all around player as well (not too sure about Lach's defensive ability, somebody can enlighten me).

Firsov is the wild card I suppose. I've heard him called the Russian Bobby Hull. It really depends on how much credit you give the Russian teams of the 60's. He was clearly a great player, but those teams were still losing to Canadian amateurs during his best years. The Soviets seemed to really make huge and sudden strides right around 1970, when the Kharlamov generation supplanted the Firsov generation.

As for Nighbor versus the d-men up for voting right now, none of them were ever seen as contenders for "best-in-the-world" status. Nighbor by all accounts was, and is credited by many as the key cog in the Ottawa team of the 1920's.

That argument can probably be applied to the goaltenders as well, though Parent's two year run was something that may never be equalled by another tender (back to back Smythe's, Cups, 1st AST). But it was just that, a two-year run with some other good seasons thrown into the mix. Nighbor was elite for over a decade.

I see the 1924 Hart as a testamnet to how well-rounded a player he was. Even though Denneny was superior offensively, his teammate viewed as the game's most valuable player. Nighbor was third for the Hart in 1926 as well, when he was approaching retirement. If they had been giving out the award from the get-go, it's not unreasonable to think he may have won a couple others, given how well he fared post-prime.

 

[MXD]

Anyways, I stand by my original comment.. obviously you have a differing opinion.

And having said that.. just what is your opinion of him? Where will you have him in this round? And why?

Others will probably state Nighbor's case more eloquently than I could hope to.. but, I'll try to add things if I see omissions are made.

...Where will you have Johnny Bower in this round? After all, he allegedly led the league in SV% for a huge span of time, with probably the best competition ever at his position... And he fared better than his opposition at G than Nighbor fared against his opposition, as far as offense is concerned obviously.

Now, defensive play pumps Nighbor up (and that's absolutely normal, I'm doing the same thing with Dave Keon in this round...), but hey, it's kindof hard to ask for Johnny Bower to bring some secondary skills aside from stopping pucks, right?

 

[Dark Shadows]

I don't usually come into a round with my #1 set in stone, but in this case it will indeed be Nighbor without question.

The "Pembroke Peach" was possibly the game's best offensive and defensive forward in his heyday. He was considered a great defensive center, one of the first great playmaking centers, and was also one of the game's best goal scorers.

Nighbor tied for the NHA goal-scoring lead in 1917 with Joe Malone, and had 4th and 7th place finishes as well. He was 3rd in PCHA goals in 1915. In the NHL, Nighbor has three top-five finishes in both goals and points, and five top-three finishes in assists. Well past his prime, Nighbor nonetheless won the league's first Hart Trophy in 1924.

Nighbor was dominant in both the 1915 and 1920 Stanley Cup series, and won five Stanley Cups in all. Along with Benedict and Denneny, both already on the list, Nighbor was crucial to Ottawa becoming the NHL's first dynasty.

As far as comparables, other centers who combined offense and defense to the extent Nighbor did would be Bobby Clarke and Milt Schmidt, long since voted onto the list.

I have badly underrated Nighbor and I likely will also be voting him in. I also hope Doug Bentley is up soon, as him and his brother should not be too far apart.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Wow, I think I had like 7 of the newcomers...
- Right away : Bill Cowley is 15th, and will probably remain there until the end of the whole voting process, unless a guy like Bobrov comes up.
- The top placements will be rather goalie-heavy.
- It's right for Elmer Lach to become available for voting at this point, but I think it's a little too early for him. He should get voted in ahead of his former linemate, though.

Why so down on Cowley? I know he had big seasons in the war years, but '40-41 wasn't a war year and he won the Hart Trophy. In '38-39 he led the league in assists and the playoffs in scoring as the Bruins won the Cup.

I'm really having a hard time picking 5 players to keep out this time.

 

[MXD]

Why so down on Cowley? I know he had big seasons in the war years, but '40-41 wasn't a war year and he won the Hart Trophy. In '38-39 he led the league in assists and the playoffs in scoring as the Bruins won the Cup.

I'm really having a hard time picking 5 players to keep out this time.

Because I think everybody that came up for voting is better than he is.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Wow, surprised that Forsberg went and MacInnnis didn't.

Though it does allow us to add Stevens and MacInnis at the same time, which is probably fitting.

Preliminary rankings:

1/2: Frank Nighbor/ Anatoli Firsov. I'll let others pimp Nighbor. Firsov is the last top tier Soviet superstar to come up for voting; many followers of Russian hockey have him a solid #4 behind Kharlamov, Fetisov, and Tretiak. I know there are big Firsov fans in the project and hopefully they'll make the case for him.

3: Scott Stevens: A modern day Tim Horton?

Opposing teams changed their game plan at even strength when facing Stevens - only a few players (Lindros notably) would even try dumping the puck in on Stevens' side of the ice. Gamebreaking at even strength in a way MacInnis never was.

Stevens was argubly the best playoff performer of the dead puck era. He won a Conn Smythe in 2000 as a defensive defenseman and was certainly Smythe-worthy in 1995 (he would have been my pick, but in a 30 team league where it's harder to watch all the games, Claude Lemieux's goals made more highlights). He still matched up against all the top lines in 2003 and did so very well.

I'll probably make a longer argument for Stevens later. But if you care about a player's contribution to winning championships, it's definitely noteworthy that Stevens led a team lacking star power to 4 finals and 3 Cups in a 26-30 team league. Brodeur is his only teammate from any Cup run who will be in the Top 100 - a much lower representation than any other team with comparable success. Were the Devils greater than the sum of their parts like the 60s Canadiens? Of course. But Stevens was their undisputed leader, and he should get points for that, like Beliveau does for the 60s Canadiens.

4. Al MacInnis - gamebreaker on the powerplay and elite at even strength

5. Nels Stewart - one dimensional, but an amazing dimension it was. Ahead of Hull because Hull's goal scoring peak was only 3 year long (and with Oates).

6. Bernie Parent - hard to place. Arguably the best consecutive seasons of all time, but not all that much outside the peak.

7. Frank Brimsek - #3 goalie of his time. Same tier as Parent and Bower in my opinion.

8. Johnny Bower - #4 goalie of his time, but the guys he was behind were all time greats. Very good playoff performer. I used to rank him lower, but at least some weight should be put on the retroactive save %.

9. Brett Hull - like Stewart, one-dimensional, but what a dimension.

10. Peter Stastny - great offensive threat, less decorated than Hull.

11. Bill Cowley - set records, but what was the competition?

12. Elmer Lach - definitely better than his left wing, but most of his best seasons were also during the war years.

13. Bill Gadsby - yes, he was stuck behind Kelly and Harvey. But that isn't enough. Yes, he was always on awful teams. But if he's as good as Stevens and MacInnis, shouldn't he have made them better, at least sometimes? I'm definitely willing to be sold on him.

14. Dave Keon - great all-round player and leader. Probably a round too early.

15. Borje Salming - probably a round too early.

All and all, a great round of adds. Everyone I won't be voting on this round should probably go up next round.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Because I think everybody that came up for voting is better than he is.

"Bill Cowley is 15th, and will probably remain there until the end of the whole voting process, unless a guy like Bobrov comes up."

Actually, I had already ascertained that from your quote.

 

[MXD]

"Bill Cowley is 15th, and will probably remain there until the end of the whole voting process, unless a guy like Bobrov comes up."

Actually, I had already ascertained that from your quote.

Actually, he MIGHT have a shot at the 14th place next round, it's just that there's so many guys more accomplished than him who are available for voting now (14, to be exact) and a pretty good number who are not available yet.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Why so down on Cowley? I know he had big seasons in the war years, but '40-41 wasn't a war year

Uhm, yes it was. Canada entered the war in Sept. 1939.

 

[Leafs Forever]

Uhm, yes it was. Canada entered the war in Sept. 1939.

I'm pretty sure the war didn't have major effects into later years, more specifically when the U.S. started to get involved.

 

[lextune]

5. Nels Stewart - one dimensional, but an amazing dimension it was. Ahead of Hull because Hull's goal scoring peak was only 3 year long (and with Oates).

Brett finished top ten in goals six years in a row, (as well as two other top ten finishes later). I don't see how his peak can be called "only three years".

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm pretty sure the war didn't have major effects into later years, more specifically when the U.S. started to get involved.

It slowly had an effect. In fact, the depression slowly leeched the talent away. At the start of the 30's talent was at an all-time high (At that time.) but by the end there was a clear decline.

 

[lextune]

I'm pretty sure the war didn't have major effects into later years, more specifically when the U.S. started to get involved.

Canada entered the War on September 10th 1939. Within two months they had troops in the UK.

Not really prepared to say how that affected the NHL at this point, but I thought I would throw that fact out there.