Round 2, Vote 8 (2009 update)

[Leafs Forever]

Canada entered the War on September 10th 1939. Within two months they had troops in the UK.

Not really prepared to say how that affected the NHL at this point, but I thought I would throw that fact out there.

I noted this before I was told differently by folk more hockey-knowledgeable than I.

Of course, if someone would care to show notable names that left for war in 1939, 1940, 1941, and I believe 1942, (and specific on year) we would have our answer.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I think Cowley's getting a bit of a raw deal over the war years. Prior to 1941-42, when the effect of the war really began to hit hard, Cowley had posted four top-5 finishes in the points race, a scoring title, two assist titles, a Hart, two 1st AST, and led a Cup-winner in playoff scoring. He did this while splitting ice time with Milt Schmidt's line on the talent-laden Bruins. A couple more 1st AST and another Hart during the war years may not be as impressive as normal years, but its still an accomplishment, it can't simply be ignored.

MXD, you've stated Cowley will be your 15th choice in this round, and probably next round as well. But you believe this is the right time for Lach. What makes Lach clearly better than Cowley? Both enjoyed war time success, and at first glace Cowley looks to have the slight edge in non-war time accomplishments.

 

[MXD]

MXD, you've stated Cowley will be your 15th choice in this round, and probably next round as well. But you believe this is the right time for Lach. What makes Lach clearly better than Cowley? Both enjoyed war time success, and at first glace Cowley looks to have the slight edge in non-war time accomplishments.

Both have two 1st AST berth in completely non-war years.
However, one had the benefit of playing "behind" Milt Schmidt while the other played ahead of Billy Reay; one was, by all account, a floater, while the other is considered a 2-way center. Lach was also sorta better in the playoffs.

It's the right time for Lach to be available for voting, but as I said slightly later, I doubt he'll be in my top-10.

 

[overpass]

Here are my numbers and analysis for the players who played since the 1967 expansion. They rest on the idea that there are three separate phases of the game of hockey - even-strength play, power play, and penalty killing - and these should be evaluated separately.

These don't include playoffs or intangibles and can't be taken as the final word, but can hopefully provide some information in certain areas.

Stat Glossary:

$ESGF/G - even-strength goals for per game, adjusted for scoring level. Higher is better.
$ESGA/G - even-strength goals against per game, adjusted for scoring level. Lower is better.
R-ON - Player's even-strength on-ice goal ratio (ESGF/ESGA). Should be higher than R-OFF.
R-OFF - Player's even-strength off-ice goal ratio (ESGF/ESGA).
XEV+/- - Players expected EV+/-, based on off-ice results.
EV+/- - Even-strength plus-minus, adjusted for scoring level.
AEV+/- - Adjusted even-strength plus-minus. =(EV+/-) - (XEV+/-). If you look at just one number, make it this one.
/82 - Adjusted even-strength plus-minus per season.
SH% - . Percentage of team's PPGA the player was on the ice for. Measures a players role in killing penalties, but not effectiveness.
PP% - Percentage of team's PPGF the player was on the ice for. Measures a players role on the power play, but not effectiveness.
$PPP - Scoring-adjusted power play points per game.
$ESP - Scoring-adjusted even-strength points per game.

Borje Salming

Player | Year | Seasons | $ESGF/G | $ESGA/G | R-ON | R-OFF | XEV+/- | EV+/- | AEV+/- | /82 | SH% | PP% | $PPP/G | $ESP/G
Borje Salming | 74-75 | 1.72 | 1.15 | 0.85 | 1.35 | 0.97 | -3 | 42 | 45 | 26 | 57% | 46% | 0.18 | 0.38
Borje Salming | 76-82 | 6.59 | 1.31 | 1.03 | 1.27 | 0.83 | -81 | 152 | 233 | 35 | 58% | 81% | 0.38 | 0.50
Borje Salming | 83-86 | 3.14 | 0.93 | 1.18 | 0.79 | 0.74 | -57 | -65 | -7 | -2 | 57% | 58% | 0.23 | 0.33
Borje Salming | 87-90 | 2.93 | 1.10 | 0.93 | 1.19 | 0.79 | -41 | 42 | 83 | 28 | 39% | 25% | 0.06 | 0.23
Borje Salming | 74-90 | 14.37 | 1.17 | 1.02 | 1.14 | 0.82 | -181 | 172 | 353 | 25 | 54% | 62% | 0.26 | 0.40

Salming was an even strength difference maker from the time he came to the NHL. He went on to have a really excellent seven-year peak from 1975-76 to 1981-82. During this time the Leafs went from being very bad to very good when he was on the ice at even strength, and he was also a productive power play quarterback and their best penalty killer.

His offensive contributions and overall impact dropped off later in his career, but he was an important player for Toronto right to the end.

Dave Keon

Player | Year | Seasons | $ESGF/G | $ESGA/G | R-ON | R-OFF | XEV+/- | EV+/- | AEV+/- | /82 | SH% | PP% | $PPP/G | $ESP/G
Dave Keon | 68-71 | 3.81 | 0.85 | 0.73 | 1.17 | 1.05 | 9 | 38 | 29 | 8 | 37% | 50% | 0.25 | 0.64
Dave Keon | 72-75 | 3.82 | 0.70 | 0.61 | 1.15 | 0.99 | -2 | 29 | 31 | 8 | 38% | 57% | 0.28 | 0.52
Dave Keon | 80-82 | 2.93 | 0.53 | 0.82 | 0.64 | 0.95 | -5 | -70 | -65 | -22 | 31% | 23% | 0.07 | 0.41
Dave Keon | 68-82 | 10.56 | 0.71 | 0.71 | 0.99 | 1.00 | 1 | -3 | -5 | 0 | 36% | 47% | 0.21 | 0.53

Keon's numbers for this time period are good for the first few years post-expansion, but not terribly impressive. He was a contributor on the power play, but not a major one. He was a positive force at even strength, but not to the degree that his reputation suggests. Sergei Fedorov, to name another defensively strong centre who isn't up for voting yet, had much better even strength results. He did contribute to a very good Toronto penalty kill while scoring a ton of shorthanded goals, and that's probably his best selling point according to the numbers.

He was overmatched in his final NHL stint with Hartford, so his career averages dropped misleadingly.

That said, these numbers don't cover most of his prime years, so that limits the conclusions we can draw from them.

Scott Stevens

Player | Year | Seasons | $ESGF/G | $ESGA/G | R-ON | R-OFF | XEV+/- | EV+/- | AEV+/- | /82 | SH% | PP% | $PPP/G | $ESP/G
Scott Stevens | 83-84 | 1.94 | 1.01 | 0.77 | 1.31 | 1.09 | 9 | 38 | 30 | 15 | 25% | 22% | 0.10 | 0.29
Scott Stevens | 85-90 | 5.58 | 1.11 | 0.96 | 1.15 | 1.15 | 45 | 66 | 21 | 4 | 47% | 64% | 0.31 | 0.41
Scott Stevens | 91-95 | 4.78 | 1.22 | 0.88 | 1.40 | 1.24 | 61 | 136 | 75 | 16 | 54% | 54% | 0.23 | 0.48
Scott Stevens | 96-01 | 5.79 | 1.11 | 0.77 | 1.45 | 1.20 | 56 | 163 | 107 | 18 | 71% | 20% | 0.07 | 0.34
Scott Stevens | 02-04 | 2.45 | 1.09 | 0.89 | 1.22 | 1.25 | 31 | 39 | 8 | 3 | 71% | 18% | 0.02 | 0.28
Scott Stevens | 83-04 | 20.53 | 1.13 | 0.86 | 1.31 | 1.19 | 202 | 443 | 241 | 12 | 56% | 40% | 0.17 | 0.38

Scott Stevens famously made the transition from being an offensive defenceman to a defensive defenceman, and this shows up in the stats. Earlier in his career he was not really an even strength difference maker, although he was productive on the power play and played a major role on the penalty kill. In the 90s he became a better even strength defencemen, cutting down on his goals against.

Later in his career his power play role declined, but he took on an even larger role on the penalty kill. In fact, there isn't a single player for whom we have data (post-1967) who was on the ice for as large a share of his team's penalty kill as Scott Stevens was. Some of that may be because the Devils were famously disciplined and spent less time on the PK, but he still deserves a ton of credit for the Devils' fine penalty kill.

The Devil Made Me said that Scott Stevens was more of an even strength difference maker than Al MacInnis. I can't agree with that. During their primes, MacInnis had a better on-ice goal ratio than Stevens, and less support from his teammates (particularly in goal). Stevens likely played a slightly more defensive role than MacInnis, making it more difficult to put up a good plus-minus, but they were both big minute #1 defencemen, so the difference there can't be too big. Add in MacInnis's massive advantage on the power play, and I don't think Stevens' edge as a penalty killer can make up the difference.

Al MacInnis

Player | Year | Seasons | $ESGF/G | $ESGA/G | R-ON | R-OFF | XEV+/- | EV+/- | AEV+/- | /82 | SH% | PP% | $PPP/G | $ESP/G
Al MacInnis | 82-85 | 1.68 | 0.80 | 0.61 | 1.31 | 1.15 | 10 | 26 | 17 | 10 | 3% | 90% | 0.50 | 0.28
Al MacInnis | 86-90 | 4.93 | 1.08 | 0.74 | 1.46 | 1.30 | 66 | 137 | 71 | 14 | 39% | 82% | 0.47 | 0.39
Al MacInnis | 91-96 | 5.03 | 1.12 | 0.72 | 1.54 | 1.02 | 6 | 162 | 155 | 31 | 42% | 88% | 0.56 | 0.44
Al MacInnis | 97-03 | 6.05 | 1.19 | 0.90 | 1.32 | 1.07 | 23 | 142 | 119 | 20 | 46% | 87% | 0.47 | 0.40
Al MacInnis | 82-03 | 17.68 | 1.10 | 0.78 | 1.41 | 1.12 | 106 | 468 | 362 | 20 | 39% | 86% | 0.50 | 0.40

I'm surprised MacInnis wasn't voted in last time. He was far more than just his shot. He was a very good even-strength defenceman and an all-time great power play quarterback for a long time. He didn't get as many all-star spots as he could have in the 90s because he missed 10-20 games in a few years, but he was still providing a ton of value in those years. Few defencemen were elite for as long as he was.

Brett Hull

Player | Year | Seasons | $ESGF/G | $ESGA/G | R-ON | R-OFF | XEV+/- | EV+/- | AEV+/- | /82 | SH% | PP% | $PPP/G | $ESP/G
Brett Hull | 87-89 | 1.85 | 0.78 | 0.72 | 1.08 | 1.14 | 11 | 9 | -1 | -1 | 0% | 61% | 0.32 | 0.60
Brett Hull | 90-92 | 2.89 | 1.22 | 1.01 | 1.21 | 1.05 | 8 | 51 | 42 | 15 | 3% | 86% | 0.51 | 0.94
Brett Hull | 93-98 | 5.51 | 0.95 | 0.94 | 1.00 | 1.07 | 19 | 2 | -17 | -3 | 29% | 78% | 0.46 | 0.73
Brett Hull | 99-06 | 5.71 | 0.90 | 0.77 | 1.16 | 1.26 | 64 | 58 | -5 | -1 | 14% | 59% | 0.40 | 0.69
Brett Hull | 87-06 | 15.96 | 0.96 | 0.87 | 1.11 | 1.13 | 102 | 120 | 18 | 1 | 16% | 72% | 0.43 | 0.76

Hull had a great three year peak. Outside of that, he was basically not a difference-maker at even strength - his goals just made up for his shortcomings in other areas. He was a very good power play scorer for a very long time, that's probably the best thing he has going for him.

Peter Stastny

Player | Year | Seasons | $ESGF/G | $ESGA/G | R-ON | R-OFF | XEV+/- | EV+/- | AEV+/- | /82 | SH% | PP% | $PPP/G | $ESP/G
Peter Stastny | 81-88 | 7.54 | 1.07 | 0.91 | 1.18 | 1.02 | 8 | 101 | 93 | 12 | 9% | 73% | 0.47 | 0.83
Peter Stastny | 89-92 | 3.61 | 0.77 | 0.89 | 0.87 | 0.84 | -31 | -34 | -3 | -1 | 7% | 69% | 0.37 | 0.53
Peter Stastny | 93-95 | 1.07 | 0.56 | 0.51 | 1.11 | 1.10 | 3 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 5% | 55% | 0.25 | 0.39
Peter Stastny | 81-95 | 12.22 | 0.94 | 0.87 | 1.08 | 0.97 | -20 | 71 | 91 | 7 | 8% | 71% | 0.42 | 0.70

Stastny was an excellent offensive player in North America for about 8 years - and he didn't get started until he was 24. On the other hand, his goals against are poor, and the Nordiques were an average team with him off the ice, so this isn't a situation where a terrible defense was dragging him down. He didn't kill penalties either, making him a fairly one-dimensional player.

Overall, he was a positive force at even strength, if not dominant, while also a very good power play scorer.

Others
Nighbor is near the top of my list. I hope seventieslord can post those early 70s save percentages soon, as I'm interested to see Bernie Parent's numbers. I believe his save percentages were actually very good for his first stint in Philadelphia.

 

[seventieslord]

I haven't done this in any of the rounds, but I felt like it this time. Here's where I stand right now:

1. Frank Nighbor. Easily. Best offensive player this round, and best defensive player too. Frank Selke, who was already in hockey management during Nighbor's prime, raved in his book about his defensive ability. He pwnd the 1915 finals with his offense and his defense that The Trail said "befuddled the Ottawa forwards" - he won the Hart without being a top-end elite offensive player. And Ottawa completely fell apart without him, letting Lalonde and Pitre go to town, in the 1919 NHL Final. He was an integral part of FIVE Stanley Cup champions.

2. Peter Stastny. Already went over what his resume would look like in the absence of Gretzky and Lemieux.

3. Elmer Lach. Match up his offensive finishes and hart voting to Milt Schmidt. They're neck and neck. He was great defensively and tough too. Doesn't have Schmidt's legendary leadership though. With that being the biggest difference between the two, should they be 40 spots apart?

4. Nels Stewart. Let's not drag him too far through the mud, now. Dude was an awesome goal scorer.

5. Brett Hull. Same as Stewart.

6. Johnny Bower. I love sv%. He got the job done in the regular season and the playoffs. I strongly believe he should be ahead of both Parent and Brimsek. And Durnan, for that matter.

7. Anatoli Firsov. Makarov and Mikhailov are in. So I have no problem voting in Firsov highly now.

8. Al MacInnis. Last time around I definitely learned a lot about MacInnis and how others regard him. I thought he wouldn't even come up for discussion back then. I was wrong; macInnis should be at the very least a top-80 player.

9. Bill Cowley. One dimensional. Slow? Depends who you ask. i think he was slow after his knee injury. Profited heavily in the war years, but most of his best accomplishments were before the war years. (based on NHL stars actually leaving the war, I consider the 1943, 1944, and 1945 seasons the war years, with the year before and after being somewhat suspect)

10. Borje Salming. I'm big on Salming. Great offensively. Superb defensively. Huge resiliency. Tough. Questionable leadership. the guy's +/- compared to his Leaf teammates some seasons was just unreal. Still, can't see him being higher than 80th.

11. Bill Gadsby. boy, did we underrate this guy last time. Stuck behind Red Kelly and then Doug Harvey.

12. Scott Stevens. I don't think it's quite time yet, but I don't want to see him get too far away from horton.

13. Frank Brimsek. He should get his turn next round. I just see a gap between Bower and the next guys.

14. Dave Keon. Out of this world defense, not enough offense to be voted in yet. I see him as a "90-something" guy.

15. Bernie Parent. Two great regular seasons, two great playoffs. Both in the same seasons. A well-above average goalie aside from that. Remove even one of those seasons and is his body of work more impressive than Tony Esposito's? Is it now?

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I noted this before I was told differently by folk more hockey-knowledgeable than I.

Of course, if someone would care to show notable names that left for war in 1939, 1940, 1941, and I believe 1942, (and specific on year) we would have our answer.

The outside question is, who didn't join the NHL. Laprade is the best example of this, but I'm sure there are others.

 

[nik jr]

It slowly had an effect. In fact, the depression slowly leeched the talent away. At the start of the 30's talent was at an all-time high (At that time.) but by the end there was a clear decline.

i read recently that syl apps was hesitant to be a pro athlete, but decided to play for TML b/c jobs were relatively hard to find, and wages offered by TML were better than for other jobs.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Here's a quick comparison of all four defensemen.

Norris trophy voting

Player | First | Second | Third | Fourth | Fifth | TOP FIVE
Bill Gadsby* | 0 | 3 | 2 | 2* | 1 | 8*
Borje Salming | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 7
Scott Stevens | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 7
Al MacInnis | 1 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 6

It's remarkably close. All four defensemen played in eras with tough competition (Gadsby faced slightly less depth in competition, but had to face Harvey and Kelly throughout most of his prime). Although MacInnis has the fewest total selections, he only has one fewer top-two selection than Gadbsy, Salming and Stevens have combined! Overall I think this is too close to call.

* Note: I'm giving Gadsby credit for one 4th place finish in 1953 (the year before the Norris trophy was first awarded). He was a second-team all-star that year.

Hart trophy voting

Player | First | Second | Third | Fourth | Fifth | TOP FIVE
Bill Gadsby | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
Borje Salming | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1
Scott Stevens | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0
Al MacInnis | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0

None of these guys were ever seriously considered the best player in the league.

Offense - comparison of ten best years
1. Gadsby - 16th in league scoring; finished 9th, 16th and 19th in best single seasons
2. MacInnis - 18th in league scoring; finished 9th, 24th and 28th in best single seasons
3. Salming - 28th in league scoring; finished 20th, 21st and 28th in best single seasons
4. Stevens - 41st in league scoring; never in top forty in scoring in a single season

Defense
1. Stevens - generally accepted as one of the greatest defensive defensemen ever. Only negative is that he wasn't great defensively early in his career.
2. Salming - very underrated defensively. Named one of the three best defensive defensemen in the league in 1974 and 1979. (Source).
3/4. MacInnis / Gadbsy - both were above average but I'd have a hard time saying one was demonstrably better than the other

Playoffs
1. Stevens - Conn Smythe; #1 defenseman on two Stanley Cup winning teams and #2 defenseman on another; NJ has had minimal playoff success since his retirement
2. MacInnis - Conn Smythe; best player on a deep & underrated Flames team; 12th in playoff scoring during span of his career
3. Salming - second only to Sittler in playoff scoring as a Leaf (source)
4. Gadsby - essentially an incomplete resume

Other factors
1. Salming - outstanding international career; underrated toughness
2. Stevens - one of the toughest and most intimidating players in NHL history
3. Gadsby - very tough; allegedly received more than 600 stitches to his face (source)
4. MacInnis - also pretty tough but probably less so than the other three; perhaps had the greatest slapshot in NHL history

After this analysis I'm still not sure how to rank these defensemen. They should all be pretty close in the final ranking.

 

[BM67]

The best Soviet player of the 60s and possibly of all-time

Anatoli Firsov

Firsov is one of only 4 players to have his number retired in Soviet hockey (Bobrov, Tretiak and Kharlamov being the others). Firsov was perhaps faster than Kharlamov, who of course wowed Canadian audiences with awesome speed. It was Firsov's scoring exploits that helped establish the Soviet Union's dominance of the international hockey scene.

Firsov's finest moment came in the 1968 Olympics in Grenoble France. Firsov led all scorers with 12 goals and 16 points as the Soviets won every game to become the Gold Medal champs.

Anatoli Firsov never had the chance to prove to the world that he could play and excel against North American professionals. That's a shame because that means only a precious few saw perhaps the greatest Russian hockey player ever.

- 1972 Summit Series Bio

Anatoli Firsov, in my opinion, is not only the best forward in our country, but compares well with the best of forwards in the world.

His speed is amazing. First of all, the speed of his thoughts. At times I believe that his game is a continuous succession of brilliant thoughts: in a tough spot, he can find the most unusual and correct decision. Then comes his speed in performing one or the other technique, pass, stick handling. And thirdly, his speed of skating. He thinks when he plays, and acts synchronously in search of the correct decision.

Firsov is always eager to accept a challenge to play power hockey. He has the necessary qualities for it: average height, sinewy; outwardly, he does not in the least look a giant that tends to demonstrate his strength in all cases. He has a good understanding of the laws of the development of hockey and perfect timing.

Anatoli Firsov was awarded two titles in Vienna – best forward and best all-around player.

This forward is one of the biggest stars in the history of Soviet hockey. Physically, Firsov is very strong, fast, sharp and capable of unbelievable spurts. His agility and stamina is something to envy.

– Road To Olympus by Anatoli Tarasov

 

[God Bless Canada]

I believe the players on Boston's Kraut Line (Schmidt, Bauer and Dumart) were among the first, if not the first, prominent players to leave the show and join the war effort in 1941-42. Beyond them, the top players to leave were in 42-43 and 43-44. So I think it would be foolish to hold that against him.

I don't hold Cowley's physical dimension or his defensive abilities in high regard. But there's no question in my mind that he's the class of offensive players up for voting in this round, and the class for playmakers. He lapped the field offensively in 40-41. He had more assists than points. He had 18 more points than the five guys who finished tied for second. Subtract the three war years, though, and you have a guy with two first-team all-star births (against stiff competition from Apps and Schmidt), two assists titles and four top five finishes in points.

I think Lach's the better hockey player. He's not as good offensively as Cowley, although he is a better goal-scorer. Certainly not in Cowley's class as a playmaker. What separates Lach from Cowley is his all-round game. Lach was a very, very good defensive forward. He played a gritty game. I believe that what Lach brings to the table gives him an edge over Cowley, despite Cowley's skill and natural offensive ability advantage. And Lach's a Saskatchewan boy. You can't beat that.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Brett finished top ten in goals six years in a row, (as well as two other top ten finishes later). I don't see how his peak can be called "only three years".

I won't be voting for Hull this round (or probably next round, for that matter, since there are about 12-15 players not eligible for this round who I have have ahead of Hull), but I will note this: in 1993-94, after Oates was gone, Hull finished second in goals. And before anyone says "He was playing with Craig Janney," remember that Hull and Janney did not mesh well. Janney played with Brendan Shanahan. Hull had a revolving door of centres.

Did Hull benefit from playing with Oates? Yes. Oates' mental toughness, face-off skills and two-way game, coupled with his playmaking savvy, made him the perfect centre for Hull. But Hull was the perfect linemate for Oates, too - a lethal goal-scorer whose shot was almost unstoppable.

 

[VMBM]

Firsov is the wild card I suppose. I've heard him called the Russian Bobby Hull. It really depends on how much credit you give the Russian teams of the 60's. He was clearly a great player, but those teams were still losing to Canadian amateurs during his best years. The Soviets seemed to really make huge and sudden strides right around 1970, when the Kharlamov generation supplanted the Firsov generation.

Bolded. Well, EXCUSE ME, but that is a bit like saying that the 1976-77 Habs were losing to other NHL teams - yeah, it did happen occasionally, but not very often. Here is the proof (if you got some better proof, I'd like to see it):

http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_country.asp?country=ca

From 1964 to 1969, it's like the Soviets won 6 in a row, then lost 1, then tied, then won 5, then lost 1, then won 6 etc. They won FAR MORE than they lost. And Firsov scored 26 goals in 35 games against them, so he clearly 'pulled his weight' vs. the Canadian amateurs.

As far as Kharlamov generation replacing the Firsov one, well; Firsov and Mikhailov, Petrov, and Kharlamov played 3 WCs together (1969, '70, '71) and Firsov outscored all of them in every tournament (not to mention, an all star in '69 and '70 and was named the best forward in '71). It was only in the 1972 Winter Olympics when Kharlamov was clearly overtaking Firsov as the best forward on his team.

Sorry if I'm a bit longwinded with this, but there's no reason to hang any "question marks" over Firsov, there really isn't.

Dark Shadows, please, say something!

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

I believe that eight players out of my top 10 will be Brimsek, Firsov, Hull, MacInnis, Nighbor, Salming, Stastny and Stewart. Nothing is set in stone, though, and I need to remind myself what all these players accomplishments are.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

Here's a quick comparison of all four defensemen.

Norris trophy voting

Player | First | Second | Third | Fourth | Fifth | TOP FIVE
Bill Gadsby* | 0 | 3 | 2 | 2* | 1 | 8*
Borje Salming | 0 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 7
Scott Stevens | 0 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 7
Al MacInnis | 1 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 6

* Note: I'm giving Gadsby credit for one 4th place finish in 1953 (the year before the Norris trophy was first awarded). He was a second-team all-star that year.

Expanding on this, a look at who their competition were:

All-star team selections prior to the Norris Trophy

Season |1st AST |1st AST |2nd AST |2nd AST
1952-53 |Doug Harvey |Red Kelly | Bill Gadsby |Bill Quackenbush

Norris Trophy voting

Season |1st |2nd |3rd |4th |5th
1953-54 |Red Kelly |Doug Harvey | Bill Gadsby
1955-56 |Doug Harvey | Bill Gadsby |Red Kelly |Tom Johnson |Fern Flaman
1956-57 |Doug Harvey |Red Kelly |Fern Flaman | Bill Gadsby |Doug Mohns
1957-58 |Doug Harvey | Bill Gadsby |Fern Flaman |Ron Stewart |Marcel Pronovost
1958-59 |Tom Johnson | Bill Gadsby |Marcel Pronovost |Doug Harvey |Fern Flaman
1962-63 |Pierre Pilote |Carl Brewer |Tim Horton |Elmer Vasko | Bill Gadsby
1964-65 |Pierre Pilote |Jacques Laperriere | Bill Gadsby |Tim Horton |Marcel Pronovost
1973-74 |Bobby Orr |Brad Park |Bill White |Barry Ashbee | Börje Salming
1974-75 |Bobby Orr |Denis Potvin |Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming |Serge Savard
1975-76 |Denis Potvin |Brad Park | Börje Salming |Guy Lapointe |Serge Savard
1976-77 |Larry Robinson | Börje Salming |Denis Potvin |Guy Lapointe |Serge Savard
1977-78 |Denis Potvin |Brad Park |Larry Robinson | Börje Salming |Guy Lapointe
1978-79 |Denis Potvin |Larry Robinson | Börje Salming |Serge Savard |Guy Lapointe
1979-80 |Larry Robinson | Börje Salming |Jim Schoenfeld |Ray Bourque |Mark Howe
1984-85 |Paul Coffey |Ray Bourque |Rod Langway |Doug Wilson | Scott Stevens
1987-88 |Ray Bourque | Scott Stevens |Gary Suter |Brad McCrimmon |Kevin Lowe
1988-89 |Chris Chelios |Paul Coffey | Al MacInnis |Ray Bourque |Steve Duchesne
1989-90 |Ray Bourque | Al MacInnis |Doug Wilson |Paul Coffey |Phil Housley
1990-91 |Ray Bourque | Al MacInnis |Chris Chelios |Brian Leetch |Paul Coffey
1991-92 |Brian Leetch |Ray Bourque |Phil Housley | Scott Stevens |Larry Murphy
1993-94 |Ray Bourque | Scott Stevens | Al MacInnis |Sergei Zubov |Brian Leetch
1996-97 |Brian Leetch |Vladimir Konstantinov |Sandis Ozolinsh |Chris Chelios | Scott Stevens
1997-98 |Rob Blake |Nicklas Lidström |Chris Pronger | Scott Stevens |Scott Niedermayer
1998-99 | Al MacInnis |Nicklas Lidström |Ray Bourque |Chris Pronger |Eric Desjardins
2000-01 |Nicklas Lidström |Ray Bourque | Scott Stevens |Rob Blake |Brian Leetch
2002-03 |Nicklas Lidström | Al MacInnis |Kevin Hatcher |Sergei Gonchar |Rob Blake

 

[DaveG]

since I didn't like the initial list I submitted for this project this year. First look at this list has this as my initial thought:

1 - Neighbor, just hard to deny him this spot here with everything he reportedly brought to the table
2 - Firsov, wild card pick, and it sticks with my typical voting record of favoring a lot of the Russian greats. Drew comparisons to Bobby Hull in the Russian leagues.

after that it's wide open for me.

not sure what to think on Stevens, no Norris wins but a Conn Smythe, 2 first team all-stars (88, 94) and 3 second team all-stars (92, 97, 01). Not to mention that New Jersey hasn't been nearly the same team since his retirement even with Brodeur still on the team and playing quite well. All 4 of Gadsby, Salming, MacInnis and Stevens should be close in this vote for me. I'm leaning towards favoring Stevens because of the playoff performances.

 

[canucks4ever]

I think Bernie Parent has more than just his two seasons. In 1977 and 1978 he was easily a top 3-4 goalie in the league. From 1968-1972, his save% was always among the best. So he has like 7 other good seasons to go along with his two year peak.

The Hockey News ranked Parent above Dryden recently, and if Parent had the big 3 defencemen standing right infront of him, he would have numerous vezina trophies. Dryden is a bit overrated.

 

[nik jr]

I think Bernie Parent has more than just his two seasons. In 1977 and 1978 he was easily a top 3-4 goalie in the league. From 1968-1972, his save% was always among the best. So he has like 7 other good seasons to go along with his two year peak.

The Hockey News ranked Parent above Dryden recently, and if Parent had the big 3 defencemen standing right infront of him, he would have numerous vezina trophies. Dryden is a bit overrated.

dryden also was among the leaders in sv% in every or almost every season and playoff.

i think parent had a higher peak than dryden. from the few games i have seen from the '74 playoffs, his peak was like hasek's. then again, judging on 1 playoff, giguere was among the best ever. and i have not seen dryden from the '71 playoffs.

if he had been healthy, the flyers may have had the dynasty instead of the habs.

 

[MXD]

dryden also was among the leaders in sv% in every or almost every season and playoff.

i think parent had a higher peak than dryden. from the few games i have seen from the '74 playoffs, his peak was like hasek's. then again, judging on 1 playoff, giguere was among the best ever. and i have not seen dryden from the '71 playoffs.

if he had been healthy, the flyers may have had the dynasty instead of the habs.

They really, really lacked offense from the blueline, though.

 

[seventieslord]

The Hockey News ranked Parent above Dryden recently,

Yeah, I was that last week. I laughed.

Like nik said, Dryden was among the sv% leaders in the regular season and playoffs every single season.

Parent's all-star voting record (because all-star voting mattered more than the vezina at that point): 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5. Dryden: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4.

hart records: Dryden: 2, 4, 4, 10. Parent: 2, 4.

 

[canucks4ever]

Yeah, I was that last week. I laughed.

Like nik said, Dryden was among the sv% leaders in the regular season and playoffs every single season.

Parent's all-star voting record (because all-star voting mattered more than the vezina at that point): 1, 1, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5. Dryden: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 4.

hart records: Dryden: 2, 4, 4, 10. Parent: 2, 4.

Yeah but you cant take those at face value, Dryden had 3 hall of fame defencemen playing on his blueline and 2 excellent defensive forwards. The flyers were pretty much bobby clarke, bill barber, macleish and parent. The teams dont compare when it comes to depth.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Bolded. Well, EXCUSE ME, but that is a bit like saying that the 1976-77 Habs were losing to other NHL teams - yeah, it did happen occasionally, but not very often. Here is the proof (if you got some better proof, I'd like to see it):

http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_country.asp?country=ca

From 1964 to 1969, it's like the Soviets won 6 in a row, then lost 1, then tied, then won 5, then lost 1, then won 6 etc. They won FAR MORE than they lost. And Firsov scored 26 goals in 35 games against them, so he clearly 'pulled his weight' vs. the Canadian amateurs.

As far as Kharlamov generation replacing the Firsov one, well; Firsov and Mikhailov, Petrov, and Kharlamov played 3 WCs together (1969, '70, '71) and Firsov outscored all of them in every tournament (not to mention, an all star in '69 and '70 and was named the best forward in '71). It was only in the 1972 Winter Olympics when Kharlamov was clearly overtaking Firsov as the best forward on his team.

Sorry if I'm a bit longwinded with this, but there's no reason to hang any "question marks" over Firsov, there really isn't.

Dark Shadows, please, say something!

Hold on their partner, that comment wasn't intended to degarde Firsov. He may very well be my number two choice behind Nighbor in this round. My intention was to point out that "the USSR's best was competitive with Canada's best" argument can't really be applied to Firsov like it can be to those who came after him. It makes him harder to judge.

Bolded: This is important to take note of. It seems to indicate that a declining Firsov was at least as good as or better than young versions of Kharlamov and Mikhailov. This isn't the most revealing observation, but it's still helpful to Firsov's case.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Yeah but you cant take those at face value, Dryden had 3 hall of fame defencemen playing on his blueline and 2 excellent defensive forwards. The flyers were pretty much bobby clarke, bill barber, macleish and parent. The teams dont compare when it comes to depth.

So if anything, Parent should have the better Hart record as he would be better able to stand out as the MVP of his team.

 

[Dark Shadows]

#1 Anatoli Firsov
#2 Peter Stastny
#3 Bill Gadsby
#4 Frank Nighbor
#5 Al MacInnis
#6 Nels Stewart
#7 Frank Brimsek
#8 Borje Salming
#9 Bill Cowley
#10 Dave Keon
#11 Johnny Bower
#12 Bernie Parent
#13 Elmer Lach
#14 Scott Stevens
#15 Brett Hull

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah but you cant take those at face value, Dryden had 3 hall of fame defencemen playing on his blueline and 2 excellent defensive forwards. The flyers were pretty much bobby clarke, bill barber, macleish and parent. The teams dont compare when it comes to depth.

When voting on the best goalie in the past 40 years, it doesn't appear that the voters have often been fooled into just taking the guy with the lowest GAA (i.e. best team) - it appears they try to isolate the goalie's performance from his team's. Based on Dryden's individual numbers I don't see any reason that they should have voted differently.

 

[pitseleh]

When voting on the best goalie in the past 40 years, it doesn't appear that the voters have often been fooled into just taking the guy with the lowest GAA (i.e. best team) - it appears they try to isolate the goalie's performance from his team's. Based on Dryden's individual numbers I don't see any reason that they should have voted differently.

From 1935 to 1970, there is a very simple algorithm to determine the First Team All-Star goalie. Look at all the goalies who played in at least 75% of their team's games, rank them by goals against average, and take the guy at the top of the list. That's the First Team All-Star. That solution worked in 30 out of 36 seasons, all of them except for 1957, 1958, 1960, 1964, 1968 and 1969.

...

The voters still, whether consciously or subconscously, voted in the GAA leaders. In every season from 1971 to 1979 the same goalie won the Vezina (which under the old definition went to the starting goalie on the team that allowed the fewest goals) and was named the First Team All-Star.

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/09/dont-always-believe-your-lying-eyes.html