Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Defensemen)

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 19, 2011

Mark Howe and Rod Langway

Since we're talking about them now, here is the time period during which they were considered top 6 defensemen in the league.

All 1st, 2nd, and "3rd" All Star Teams for Rod Langway and Mark Howe included.

Again, 3rd Teams are from HO's study.

I'm repeating the 1979-80 season from the above table to take into account Mark Howe's 3rd Team.

Mark Howe was an NHL defenseman from 1979-80 to 1994-95. He played in the WHA from 1973-74 to 1978-79 as a LW.
Rod Langway was an NHL defenseman from 1978-79 to 1992-93 after 1 season in the WHA.

While Langway won the 82-83 Norris over Howe (180-155 points), Howe actually had more votes for the All Star Teams (262-228). Definitely a split decision.
Langway was 1st in both Norris and All Star votes in 83-84.
Howe was 2nd in both Norris and All Star votes in both 85-86 and 86-87
The above table does not include playoff performances. Howe was a key player on a team that lost in the finals twice (1985, 1987) to Edmonton. Langway won a Cup as a role player in Montreal, but his Capitals are generally considered a playoff disappointment, though that is not necessarily Langway's fault.
Mark Howe was still recovering from being impaled on the net net in 1981 and 1982, which is why he didn't receive any recognition in those years.
Mark Howe played in 4 NHL All Star Games = 1981, 1983, 1986, and 1988.
Rod Langway played in 6 straight All Star Games = 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, and 1986. It would seem that he had a shorter but more consistent prime than Mark Howe.
For comparison, Guy Lapointe and Serge Savard both played in 4 All Star games.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 19, 2011

overpass said:
Mark Howe was traded to the Philadelphia Flyers before the 1982-83 season. He became the face of the Flyers' transition from a team based on toughness to a more disciplined, faster team. In his first season with the Flyers, the team improved by 19 points and allowed 73 fewer goals. Howe was a close second to Rod Langway for the Norris trophy and led all d-men in postseason all-star voting.

You made a good case for Howe otherwise, but I hate the use of this stat for two reasons.

1) You are comparing Howe's first season to an outlier bad year.

Flyers Goals Against:
1979-80: 254
1980-81: 249
1981-82: 313
1982-83: 240

This isn't like the Washington Capitals, who were a doormat for their entire existence until Langway (and others) arrived.

2) Howe wasn't the only key.addition in 1982-83.

Brad McCrimmon and Pelle Lindbergh also joined the Flyers that season.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 19, 2011

I think Mark Howe is definitely the best even strength defenseman left on a per game basis, but he's missing two things:

1) durability - he can't help his team win when he's injured. Edit: I don't think this is a huge issue for Howe, but it's definitely there and is a factor in why he has a somewhat unimpressive Norris record compared to other available guys.

2) special teams - if Howe is he best post expansion even strength defenseman available, he is also probably the worst post expansion special teams defenseman available.

I'm having a hard time figuring out if I prefer Howe or Lapointe to be honest

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 19, 2011

Pronovost, Laperriere, and Tremblay

Marcel Pronovost played in the 1950 playoffs before he ever played a regular season game. He became a fulltime player in 1951-52. His last full season was 1967-68, but he played some games until 1969-70. He has Cups in 1950, 1952, 1954, and 1955 with Detroit and 1967 in Toronto.

Jacques Laperriere became a full time player in 1963-64. His final season was 1973-74. He only played 6 of his team's 13 games in the 1965 playoffs (likely due to injury), but they won the Cup for the 1st time in 5 years. He didn't play at all in the 1966 playoffs (due to injury), but the team repeated as Cup winner. He played every game for his team in the playoffs for the 1968, 69, and 71 Cup wins. He only played 10 of 17 games in 1973 as he won his 6th Cup. So out of 6 Cups, he played every game 3 times, missed significant time twice, and missed the whole playoffs once.

JC Tremblay becamse a full time player in 1961-62 and played in the NHL until 1971-72. He then played in the WHA from 1972-73 to 1978-79 and is generally considered the best defenseman in WHA history - though the WHA was a very offense-friendly league. He won 5 Cups with Montreal - 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, and 1971. Some people consider Tremblay something of a "missing piece" from Montreal between the late 50s and late 60s dynasties - the first good transition defenseman they had since Harvey. His regular season numbers weren't always impressive, but his playoff numbers are spectacular:

1965: 4th in team scoring, 1st among team defensemen with 10 points in 13 games. 2nd among team defensemen had 5 points.
1966: 1st in team scoring among all players. Tremblay led the Cup winners in scoring this season with 11 points in 10 games, but somehow the losing goalie won the Smythe. Jean Beliveau was second in team scoring with 10 points. Tremblay famously threw a fit after Crozier was selected the Smythe winner - which led to some to think that he put himself over team. 2nd among team defensemen had 5 points.
1968: 5th in team scoring, 1st among team defensemen with 9 points in 13 games. 2nd among team defensemen had 4 points.
1969: 11th in team scoring, 2nd in team defensemen with 5 points in 13 games. The Conn Smythe winner, Serge Savard had 10 points in 13 games.
1971: 5th in team scoring, 1st among team defensemen with 17 points in 20 games. 2nd among team defensemen had 13 points.

The season after Tremblay bolted to the WHA (1973), the Canadiens won the Cup anyway. Laperriere wasn't much of a factor either, as he was hampered with injuries and would soon retire. Larry Robinson was still a raw rookie. At this point, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe were the best defensemen on the team.

Here is a table showing the competition for all star spots during this time frame. All NHL Postseason All Stars for the 3 men are included.

I think it's interesting that All-Star consideration for Laperriere dropped off right after the team won 2 Cups in a row, once with him playing a minor role in the playoffs, and once with him playing no role. On the other hand, maybe he just wasn't quite as good anymore as injuries were piling up. Thoughts?
Pronovost won a lot of Cups, but none were when he was an All-Star defenseman.
Tremblay has the weakest (NHL) All-Star record of the three, but his playoff performances are very enticing. I think I prefer him to Laperriere, both for his importance to the team in the playoffs and his superior durability and longevity.
Tremblay left for the WHA in 1972-73, but was not an All-Star the previous season.

"Third Team" All Stars

Tremblay was 5th in All Star voting in 1965 and 1967.
Laperriere was 6th in All Star voting in 1968 and 5th in 1973.
Pronovost was 6th in All Star voting in 1957, 6th in 1963, 5th in 1965.

Dennis Bonvie · Dec 19, 2011

I think it should be noted that:

Mark Howe had 28 career short-handed goals, an NHL record for Dmen. The closest to him is Coffey with 20. One reason may be that Howe had as good a wrist shot as any Dman ever.

Once again, only 11 Dmen have won multiple Norris trophies and Langway seems to be getting little support so far to be in the top 30.

Still don't see why Savard is consider top 5 here ahead of Laperriere, Lapointe and even Pronovost. Seems because he was only a 2nd team all-star once, suddenly 3rd team all-star finishes came into play. His own teammates (Lapointe & Laperriere) managed post season all-star recognition 4 times each.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 19, 2011

Dennis Bonvie said:
I think it should be noted that:

Mark Howe had 28 career short-handed goals, an NHL record for Dmen. The closest to him is Coffey with 20. One reason may be that Howe had as good a wrist shot as any Dman ever.

I know Howe occasionally killed penalties as a forward even in the NHL. Does anyone know what years those were and how many of his SHGs were as a forward on the PK?

via overpass's past ATD profile of Howe:

Sports Illustrated said:
Since Nov. 21, when Philadelphia penalty killers were the second worst in the league with 22 goals allowed in 80 shorthanded situations, the Flyers have moved to first place in that department, giving up 11 goals in 127 chances. More impressive, over a 22-game span, from Dec. 26 through Feb. 13, the Flyers allowed only seven goals in man-down situations while scoring eight shorthanded goals. In other words, their penalty-killing unit was plus one.
"The key is Mark Howe," says [Flyers’ coach] of his top defenseman. "In late November, Howe came to me and said that when he was with the Whalers he sometimes killed penalties as a forward and he thought he could help us doing that. I moved him up with Bobby Clarke. With Clarkie's puck-handling ability and Howe's breakaway speed, they not only kill penalties but they actually give us a scoring threat." At week's end Howe had five shorthanded goals, which tied him for the league lead.

Dennis Bonvie said:
Once again, only 11 Dmen have won multiple Norris trophies and Langway seems to be getting little support so far to be in the top 30.

He has the two Norrises, true. The problem with Langway is that everything he did of note happened in a 6 year period. (Whereas Quackenbush has the equivalent of 2 Norrises, but had more seasons as an impact player. And yes, I realize competition in the late 40s wasn't the best, but Quack was also second to Red Kelly once in the early 50s, and it's not like competition was all that strong when Langway won his pair of Norrises - Potvin was oft-injured, Fetisov was in Europe, and Bourque hadn't completely matured defensively).

Honest question - why should Langway be ranked higher than Niedermayer? I'm not sure which one I prefer right now, to be honest.

Langway is one of the hardest players for me to rank this round.

Dennis Bonvie said:
Still don't see why Savard is consider top 5 here ahead of Laperriere, Lapointe and even Pronovost. Seems because he was only a 2nd team all-star once, suddenly 3rd team all-star finishes came into play. His own teammates (Lapointe & Laperriere) managed post season all-star recognition 4 times each.

I don't understand the issue the issue with unofficial "3rd Team All Star" votes. All they do is recognize when a defenseman finished 5th or 6th in All-Star voting, no different than official 2nd Team All Stars, which just mean the defenseman finished 3rd or 4th in voting. Each writer lists more names when voting for All Star teams - the ballot isn't just limited to top 3 choices like the Norris - so there is always a much larger sample of votes for 5th and 6th place than there is for the Norris. For that reason, I think "3rd Team All Stars" are probably more accurate view of how the defenseman was viewed in that season than 5th and 6th place finishes for the Norris.

I can see the case for Lapointe over Savard. Possibly Pronovost. Personally, I can't see the case for Laperriere over Savard.

overpass · Dec 19, 2011

TheDevilMadeMe said:
I know Howe occasionally killed penalties as a forward even in the NHL. Does anyone know what years those were and how many of his SHGs were as a forward on the PK?

Howe played exclusively at defence from at least 84-85 on.

I've looked at the sum of team PPGA and the % by defencemen to estimate which teams had defencemen playing forward on the PK. League average is about 52%, because of 5-on-3's. A higher number means that either lots of 5-on-3 goals were allowed or a d-man was playing forward on the PK.

In Hartford

1979-80 - 57% of PPGA by d-men
1980-81 - 53% of PPGA by d-men
1981-82 - 54% of PPGA by d-men

McCammon's quote says Howe killed penalties as a forward sometimes in Hartford. Looks like he did at least in 1979-80, and maybe occasionally in the following 2 seasons.

In Philadelphia

1982-83 - 57% (McCammon's quote about Howe playing forward on the PK is from this year)
1983-84 - 54%
1984-85 - 51%
1985-86 - 51%
1986-87 - 52%
1987-88 - 50%

Looks like he played forward on the PK in 1982-83, and maybe a bit in 1983-84. From 1984-85 on he stayed back on defence (co-inciding with his pairing with McCrimmon.)

12 of Howe's 28 SHG came in seasons in which we suspect he played some forward on the penalty kill. But for his top SHG season - 7 in 1985-86 - he played exclusively on defence. That leaves at least 16 SHG from the defence position.

Edit: Here are the PPGA for Howe at forward, followed by his total PPGA, assuming that all extra PPGA going to defence above a league-average split were because Howe played forward. So this is basically the maximum of his PK time spent at forward.

1979-80: 14 at forward, 29 total, 49% at forward
1980-81: 5 at forward, 29 total, 17% at forward
1981-82: 9 at forward, 25 total, 36% at forward
1982-83: 12 at forward, 17 total, 71% at forward
1983-84: 7 at forward, 26 total, 27% at forward

It's very likely that some of his 12 SHG from those seasons came from the blueline.

Dennis Bonvie · Dec 19, 2011

TheDevilMadeMe said:
I know Howe occasionally killed penalties as a forward even in the NHL. Does anyone know what years those were and how many of his SHGs were as a forward on the PK?

via overpass's past ATD profile of Howe:

He has the two Norrises, true. The problem with Langway is that everything he did of note happened in a 6 year period. (Whereas Quackenbush has the equivalent of 2 Norrises, but had more seasons as an impact player. And yes, I realize competition in the late 40s wasn't the best, but Quack was also second to Red Kelly once in the early 50s, and it's not like competition was all that strong when Langway won his pair of Norrises - Potvin was oft-injured, Fetisov was in Europe, and Bourque hadn't completely matured defensively).

Honest question - why should Langway be ranked higher than Niedermayer? I'm not sure which one I prefer right now, to be honest.

Langway is one of the hardest players for me to rank this round.

I don't understand the issue the issue with unofficial "3rd Team All Star" votes. All they do is recognize when a defenseman finished 5th or 6th in All-Star voting, no different than official 2nd Team All Stars, which just mean the defenseman finished 3rd or 4th in voting. Each writer lists more names when voting for All Star teams - the ballot isn't just limited to top 3 choices like the Norris - so there is always a much larger sample of votes for 5th and 6th place than there is for the Norris. For that reason, I think "3rd Team All Stars" are probably more accurate view of how the defenseman was viewed in that season than 5th and 6th place finishes for the Norris.

I can see the case for Lapointe over Savard. Possibly Pronovost. Personally, I can't see the case for Laperriere over Savard.

My only issue with the 3rd team all-star is that I don't recall it being used as an argument for anyone until Savard comes up.

How can you not see a case for Laperriere over Savard? He has a Norris, he's an all-star 4 times (2 first 2 second) to Savard's one. In the time their careers overlap, playing on the same team, Laperriere has a slight edge in scoring. Savard played long, but accomplished less as an individual in terms of recognition. Savard also played primarily in the expansion years while Laperriere had his greatest accomplishment in the peak of the original 6. He has to at least have a case.

MXD · Dec 19, 2011

TheDevilMadeMe said:
[*]Pronovost won a lot of Cups, but none were when he was an All-Star defenseman.

Just so it doesn't sound like something against Pronovost...

He was behind Red Kelly and Tim Horton on the depth chart when he won Cups.

No guys in this round would have been the no.1 D-Men on those teams.

overpass · Dec 19, 2011

Here's an interesting article on Jacques Laperriere from his second season in the league. Too much to type up and quote, but it has a lot of detail on his play in his Calder-winning rookie season and second season.

A quote from Laperriere's final season. Montreal Gazette, Mar 15, 1974:

The future of Jacques Laperriere, dean of the Canadiens blueline corps and often described as the best defensive defenceman in the game, remains more cloudy than ever.

Here's an article from Laperriere's final season about the feud between him and Scotty Bowman. Bowman wasn't happy with Laperriere's play, and Laperriere didn't want to come back for another season if Bowman was there. It turned out to be Laperriere's final season, but not entirely by choice. His season was ended by a knee injury, and after trying and failing to come back for the following season he was forced to retire.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 19, 2011

In 2005, Red Fisher celebrated 50 years of reporting on the Montreal Canadiens by ranking his top 10 (non-goalie) Canadiens from that half century. This is his list:

1. Jean Beliveau
2. Maurice Richard
3. Guy Lafleur
4. Doug Harvey
5. Henri Richard
6. Larry Robinson
7. Bernard Geoffrion
8. Bob Gainey
9. Dickie Moore
10. Serge Savard

Here is a link to an old hfboards thread on the topic.

Here is a direct link to the article on Serge Savard.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 20, 2011

Dennis Bonvie said:
My only issue with the 3rd team all-star is that I don't recall it being used as an argument for anyone until Savard comes up.

How can you not see a case for Laperriere over Savard? He has a Norris, he's an all-star 4 times (2 first 2 second) to Savard's one. In the time their careers overlap, playing on the same team, Laperriere has a slight edge in scoring. Savard played long, but accomplished less as an individual in terms of recognition. Savard also played primarily in the expansion years while Laperriere had his greatest accomplishment in the peak of the original 6. He has to at least have a case.

Yeah, that's a case. I don't agree with it, but it's a case.

I just see Savard as being so much more important to the Cups the Canadiens won than Laperriere was, plus his large advantages in longevity and durability. Are a few seasons of slightly better regular season play really that determinative?

Also keep in mind that Laperriere's recognition was before expansion, when it was much easier for defensive defensemen to get their due, because everyone played every other team 14 times.

tarheelhockey · Dec 20, 2011

Bringing a bit of info to the table about Pronovost.

A clip of a somewhat editorial game recap that provides a sense of what it was like to watch Pronovost in his younger, more offensively-agressive stage:

The Windsor Daily Star 4/17/1954 said:
There was a fellow named Marcel Pronovost. As far as this department is concerned he was the outstanding individual performer of the evening. In the first period, B.T.V. (before television), he could have, with any luck, have won the game single-handed. In the first five minutes he made a rush down the left wing side and around Doug Harvey to blast the rubber into McNeil's pads from the short side. Eight minutes later he came up with the finest solo play of the game when he bulleted his way down the centre of the ice and looked as if he would try to split the Montreal defence of Harvey and St. Laurent. The Hab defenders were so sure of what he was going to do that they rammed together like a couple of runaway freight trains and went down in a heap -- while the free-wheeling ex-Windsor Spitfire cut to the right side of Harvey to go right in on the Montreal goal.

By the sounds of this and other articles, Pronovost was as potent offensively as anyone on this list when he had the green light to put his skills to use. Descriptions of his weaving through defensive formations are quite common in the early stage of his career, and he had a good but not overpowering shot that tended to sneak through screens. He was very, very fast.

The following article, 7 years later, suggests that Pronovost had developed a more balanced approach. His speed is still evident, but he was using it effectively in both directions.

Lloyd Percival of the Montreal Gazette 11/21/1961 said:
Whenever I watch Marcel Pronovost, the star defenceman of the Detroit Red Wings, I am impressed by one specific phase of his play -- his ability to break up the ice quickly, or to retreat quickly and in perfect balance before a fast approaching puck carrier. Pronovost, along with Doug Harvey, seems to have developed this skill far beyond average efficiency.

From a recent thread (link):

Killion said:
As per Rabbins comments above, a high flying high scoring center in Junior converted to defence. He was literally "stolen" by Red Wings Scout Marcel Cote' from under the noses of the Hab's while playing minor hockey in Shawinigan. He was initially assigned to the minors by Detroit but called up during (I think) the 50 or 51 playoffs' to fill in for Red Kelly who was moved to forward to fill an injury, and helped the Wings to the Cup that year.

He was eventually traded to Toronto where I remember him well as part of the "Over the Hill Gang" of defenders (and forwards really) in the mid-60's, helping the Leafs win their last Cup in 67. The Pronovost of later years wasnt the same as the earlier version of course, playing a more economical, "safe" role, staying back. But apparently in his younger days in Detroit, a speedster opportunist who wasnt averse to head long rushes. Honestly I dont know who you'd compare him to today; maybe a Willie Mitchell type?.

Canadiens1958 said:
Marcel Pronovost was called-up in the 1950 semi finals when Gordie Howe suffered a fractured skull and Kelly moved to forward.

For a former center he was not a strong passer for a dman. J.C. Tremblay, also a converted center was a much better passer. But Pronovost was much more solid defensively, drawing the top lines. He was an excellent hitter, mixed his angles very well. At times he would catch a forward with a forward's angle as opposed to a dman's angle. One of the few to catch Henri Richard - end of the 1961-62 season resulting in Richard breaking his arm and missing the playoffs.

In 1967 his opportunist skills produced a key goal, SH unassisted, in game 5 of the finals, nice finishing move.

He also coached in the Q - Hull and Windsor in the OHL. Modern day comparables - probably Konstantinov would be the closest or a more mobile, better offensive than Adam Foote.

Peter9 said:
Marcel Pronovost began to get the recognition he deserved only when teammate Red Kelly no longer was selected to the all-star team on defense. During Kelly's last two years with the Wings, Pronovost was selected on the second all-star team. And, after Kelly was traded to the Leafs, Pronovost was named to two successive first all-star teams.

My recollection is that it wasn't that Pronovost suddenly improved his play. Rather, he had played in the shadow of Kelly's often spectacular rushing game and very high goals and assists totals, and his value simply had not been given proper recognition

Pronovost was quite mobile for a defenseman of that era (although not as mobile as Kelly), and for that he had to be a fairly good skater. While he was not a stay-at-home defenseman during his mid-career all-star years, he was always an extremely capable defender and, unlike Kelly, played a physical game and could become rough and tough when required. He was an extremely good body-checker, as Canadiens1958 and Killion have said.

Canadiens fans of the time regarded him as one of the few Quebec natives who got away. We admired him immensely and wished he played for our team.

From the site "Greatest Hockey Legends" (link):

Joe Pelletier said:
He was a strong skater and puck carrier, often compared to Kenny Reardon before him or, for more modern audiences, a Ed Jovanovski after him. Often he would make a spectacular rush from one end to another. Sometimes these rushes would end up in an equally spectacular crash - into the boards, into another player, or into the goalie. But they were fun to witness.

Defensively Marcel was never considered to be a hard rock defenseman, though he sure tried to be. He would attempt to hit anything in sight with reckless abandon. He was one of the best stick and poke checkers the game has ever seen.

It's worth noting this little blurb, buried in a Wings recap:

Reading Eagle 11/24/1965 said:
Manager-Coach Sid Abel admitted when he traded Marcel Pronovost to Toronto earlier this year to get Bathgate that the move created a problem at defense.

Apparently Pronovost was even more of a cornerstone to that Detroit defense than had been anticipated at the time. Observers later in the season agreed that the Wings defense fell apart without him. Bear in mind that an aging Bill Gadsby was part of that unit.

Scanning old newspaper articles, I see numerous reports of Pronovost knocking players out of action -- Orr, Richard, Nesterenko, big names. He took out some teammates, too, including Gordie Howe.

The downside of Pronovost was his recklessness. He seems to have been responsible for quite a few GA as a result of taking penalties (though perhaps that trend could in part be chalked up to having Pronovost himself off the ice during the PK). He was frequently injured as a result of cannonballing around the rink, colliding with sticks and goalies. And it would appear from game recaps that he was beaten 1-on-1 a bit more than a Langway or Savard.

He's an interesting case, perhaps a bit reminiscent of Stevens in some aspects. His offensive skillset was a little different, but he certainly had that same physical presence on the ice -- not just a hitter, but a hospital visit waiting to happen at any time or place on the ice. He was less restrained than Stevens, but made a similar transition toward a conservative and responsible style as a veteran. And he was intelligent enough to pursue a coaching career, not just some lug running around looking for collisions. He certainly seems to fit with the group on this list.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 20, 2011

Good post, tarheel.

Even though Pronovost and Laperriere have similar all-star records (2 1st, 2 2nd), I think there is good reason to believe that Pronovost was slightly underrated by his record and Laperriere slightly overrated.

Awards voting is simply a snapshot of how that player was perceived that season. And it seems likely that Pronovost wasn't getting quite the recognition he deserved, playing under the shadow of Red Kelly. While Laperriere perhaps got a bit too much recognition - I just can't get over how his awards voting dropped off after his team won 2 Cups in a row with him injured in the playoffs.

I don't think the gap is all that big, but as of now, I plan to rank Pronovost ahead of Laperriere.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 20, 2011

I asked this before, but I think it got lost in the shuffle. This is mostly a question for older posters who watched Langway play and were impressed. And it's a question I don't know the answer to.

Why should Langway be ranked over Niedermayer?

Edit: According to overpass's stats, Langway has a slightly better prime R-on and his prime lasts twice as long. And he played minutes that were at least as tough as prime Niedermayer. So there is that...

overpass · Dec 20, 2011

TheDevilMadeMe said:
Good post, tarheel.

Even though Pronovost and Laperriere have similar all-star records (2 1st, 2 2nd), I think there is good reason to believe that Pronovost was slightly underrated by his record and Laperriere slightly overrated.

Awards voting is simply a snapshot of how that player was perceived that season. And it seems likely that Pronovost wasn't getting quite the recognition he deserved, playing under the shadow of Red Kelly. While Laperriere perhaps got a bit too much recognition - I just can't get over how his awards voting dropped off after his team won 2 Cups in a row with him injured in the playoffs.

I don't think the gap is all that big, but as of now, I plan to rank Pronovost ahead of Laperriere.

Laperrierr also had an unusual situation where he won the Norris trophy although he missed the last 13 games of the season, primarily on the strength of his first half voting. When Pierre Pilote and Doug Barkley, the next two d-men in first half voting, also went down to injury, it was nearly impossible for anyone to catch Laperriere in the final total. He may not have won the award under a different voting system.

overpass · Dec 20, 2011

Just copying forward my post on Eddie Gerard in the preliminary discussion round. No new info presented here...

Gerard's stat line doesn't describe his value very well, and there were no seasonal awards given out during his career, so we need to go to the opinion of his contemporaries.

For your convenience, an excerpt from his Legends of Hockey profile:

Rarely in hockey history has a defenseman exhibited as high a level of play and gentlemanly conduct as Eddie Gerard. While playing a position that constantly required physical confrontation, he performed with superior efficiency but in sportsmanlike fashion. Gerard was a fine skater with superior puckhandling capabilities who was a fair match for any adversary at either end of the ice, while his leadership skills made him the ideal captain for the Stanley Cup-winning Ottawa Senators and a fine coach with the Cup champion Montreal Maroons in 1926.

Gerard first signed with hockey's Ottawa Senators in 1913-14, a transaction that reaped many benefits for the club. He began as a forward, playing on a line with Jack Darragh and Skene Ronan, and didn't switch to defense for another three years. Following this positional shift, Gerard established himself as a tower of strength on his squad's defense while serving as the team's inspirational heart. He formed an outstanding defensive partnership with George Boucher and was the natural choice for team captain.

Gerard captained the version of the Senators that was dubbed the "Super Six" as a tribute to their winning three Stanley Cups in four years between 1920 and 1923. During the 1920 Stanley Cup series against the Seattle Metropolitans, Gerard formed an impenetrable defensive wall with Sprague Cleghorn in his own zone and scored on a dramatic end-to-end rush in the deciding game. The Senators retained the Cup the following year in an emotionally charged series versus the PCHA champion Vancouver Millionaires. In one of the most keenly watched Stanley Cup encounters of the 1920s, Ottawa triumphed in the fifth and deciding game with a 2-1 score.

King Clancy thought extremely highly of Eddie Gerard. From Clancy's autobiography:

Before I'm finished with this narrative, maybe you'll be thinking that far too often I say this player was great and that player was great; that I build too many pedestals for these stars of the past to stand on. But there's no question about Gerard being a fabulous hockey player. They talk about Doug Harvey and Eddie Shore and one or two other legendary defencemen. Gerard was in that class--a brilliant skater and a fine team man.

Several other hockey men also considered Gerard to be among the best of his time.

Cyclone Taylor (Hockey Pictorial, February 1956)

The second "dream team" dates from the start of the modern era to 1944. Tiny Thompson, goal. Eddie Shore and Eddie Gerard, defense. Howie Morenz, Syl Apps and Bill Cook, his forward line.

Cyclone picked two centers in Morenz and Apps but explained that by commenting "They would have been just as great playing wing as they were at center."

Red Dutton

Red Dutton...selects an all-star, all-time team, all-time only in the respect that he deals with players who have come and gone under the big toll of the NHL since he began to play. Dutton's team: Sprague Cleghorn, right defense; Eddie Gerard, left defense; Eddie Shore, No 2 right defense; Herb Gardiner, No 2 left defense...

Shorty Green

Goal: Georges Vezina
Defence: Sprague Cleghorn
Defence: Eddie Gerard
Centre: Frank Nighbor
Right wing: Bill Cook
Left wing: Aurel Joliat

Gerard and Cleghorn he regards as top defenceman for their ice generalship and thumping rearguard play.

Foster Hewitt:

Goal: Charlie Gardiner, Chicago Black Hawks in the early thirties. "A colorful holler guy. If somebody threw a hat on the ice, Gardiner'd wear it the whole game."
Defence: Eddie Shore, Boston Bruins 25 years ago. "Colorful, high-handed and hotheaded. A bull moose when you got his goat."
Defence: Eddie Gerard: "Great ice-leader and traffic director."
Centre: Howie Morenz, Montreal Canadians circa 1930. "Reeked with color. He'd electrify a crowd the minute he got the puck. A regular sputnik on skates."
Left Wing: Ted Lindsay, lately of Chicago and Detroit. "He scored, checked, and needled. Play with him and you play with dynamite."
Right Wing: Rocket Richard, Montreal immortal. "Put people in the rink and pucks in the net. He was the Babe Ruth, the home-run hitter of hockey."

Jim Coleman - 10 best players of all time:

Howie Morenz
Eddie Shore
Gordon Howe
Maurice Richard
Bobby Orr
Bobby Hull
Jean Beliveau
Milt Schmidt
Dit Clapper
Eddie Gerard - One must defer to the opinion of King Clancy and hockey historian Charles L. Coleman who insist that Gerard was the best. On Wednesday of this week, Clancy said "You can put Gerard's name at the very top of your list."

Quotes from Gerard's lengthy obituary in the Ottawa Citizen
Tommy Gorman on Gerard:

I admired Eddie Gerard more than any athlete I ever handled. He always gave all he had, was a great organizer, an exceptional team captain, and a fine sport. He was courageous and possessed a fighting-spirit that was hard to beat. He was the spark-plug of the famous Super-Six, which I consider the greatest team of all time. Eddie Gerard and Sprague Cleghorn, were in my opinion, the greatest defence in hockey.

Sprague Cleghorn on Gerard:

In my estimation, there was none better. You can have all your Shores and Conachers, and the others, but Eddie Gerard was in a class by himself. He knew just what to do and no one ever needed to coach him.

At the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926.

D: Harry Cameron, Sprague Cleghorn, Eddie Gerard, and Ernie Johnson

He selected Sprague Cleghorn and Ernie Johnson.

Gerard was also among the inaugural class of 12 players inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1945.

Taking a critical eye to the opinions above:

I'd put the least weight on Dutton's opinion. He was a very good friend of Gerard and gave the eulogy at Gerard's funeral.

The great hockey writer Jim Coleman admits he didn't see Gerard play, he's taking the word of Clancy and historian Charles Coleman. It probably means something that he bought what they were saying.

Cyclone Taylor, Shorty Green, and Foster Hewitt would all be independent sources who saw Gerard play.

Gorman and Cleghorn were being quoted just after Gerard's death, so take that into consideration.

Finally, it's also worth emphasizing Gerard's experience in the 1922 Stanley Cup Final, when Toronto was given the choice of any defenseman in hockey to replace the injured Harry Cameron in Game 4, and chose Gerard. Gerard played so well that Vancouver refused to allow him to play in Game 5.

Dennis Bonvie · Dec 20, 2011

TheDevilMadeMe said:
I asked this before, but I think it got lost in the shuffle. This is mostly a question for older posters who watched Langway play and were impressed. And it's a question I don't know the answer to.

Why should Langway be ranked over Niedermayer?

Edit: According to overpass's stats, Langway has a slightly better prime R-on and his prime lasts twice as long. And he played minutes that were at least as tough as prime Niedermayer. So there is that...

Because Langway was a more dominant player in his prime.

He seemed to have a much bigger effect on the game than Niedermayer did.

For that matter, at his peak Langway had a bigger effect on the game than anyone in this voting group, from what I saw.

It should also be noted that I probably place less value on longevity than any of the other voters, hence my high ranking of Langway.

Hardyvan123 · Dec 20, 2011

overpass said:
Just copying forward my post on Eddie Gerard in the preliminary discussion round. No new info presented here...

Gerard's stat line doesn't describe his value very well, and there were no seasonal awards given out during his career, so we need to go to the opinion of his contemporaries.

For your convenience, an excerpt from his Legends of Hockey profile:

King Clancy thought extremely highly of Eddie Gerard. From Clancy's autobiography:

Several other hockey men also considered Gerard to be among the best of his time.

Cyclone Taylor (Hockey Pictorial, February 1956)

Red Dutton

Shorty Green

Foster Hewitt:

Jim Coleman - 10 best players of all time:

Quotes from Gerard's lengthy obituary in the Ottawa Citizen
Tommy Gorman on Gerard:

Sprague Cleghorn on Gerard:

At the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926.

D: Harry Cameron, Sprague Cleghorn, Eddie Gerard, and Ernie Johnson

He selected Sprague Cleghorn and Ernie Johnson.

Gerard was also among the inaugural class of 12 players inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1945.

Taking a critical eye to the opinions above:

I'd put the least weight on Dutton's opinion. He was a very good friend of Gerard and gave the eulogy at Gerard's funeral.

The great hockey writer Jim Coleman admits he didn't see Gerard play, he's taking the word of Clancy and historian Charles Coleman. It probably means something that he bought what they were saying.

Cyclone Taylor, Shorty Green, and Foster Hewitt would all be independent sources who saw Gerard play.

Gorman and Cleghorn were being quoted just after Gerard's death, so take that into consideration.

Finally, it's also worth emphasizing Gerard's experience in the 1922 Stanley Cup Final, when Toronto was given the choice of any defenseman in hockey to replace the injured Harry Cameron in Game 4, and chose Gerard. Gerard played so well that Vancouver refused to allow him to play in Game 5.

Interesting comments but once again we need to take Jim Coleman's top 10 with a grain of salt as Doug Harvey isn't on that list and both Gerard and maybe even Clapper are overrated (on this particular list).

Hardyvan123 · Dec 20, 2011

Dennis Bonvie said:
Because Langway was a more dominant player in his prime.

He seemed to have a much bigger effect on the game than Niedermayer did.

For that matter, at his peak Langway had a bigger effect on the game than anyone in this voting group, from what I saw.

It should also be noted that I probably place less value on longevity than any of the other voters, hence my high ranking of Langway.

Not entirely sure that I agree with Langway have a much bigger impact on the game. Perhaps he had greater impact on his team, Washington that is, but that has alot to do with how lousy Washington was at the time before Langway as well. As was noted in the last round we might not view him the same way if he had remained a Hab.

I am a longevity guy and Nieds beats Langway there and definitely in the playoff department.

seventieslord · Dec 21, 2011

Don't think it's been mentioned yet, but Mark Howe was on the WHA's 2nd all-star team in 1977 as a defenseman. It's typically said that he was a forward in the WHA, but he was a defenseman for at least that season. I checked the 1978 scouting report and it corroborates this.

seventieslord · Dec 21, 2011

TheDevilMadeMe said:
[*]Mark Howe played in 4 NHL All Star Games = 1981, 1983, 1986, and 1988.
[*]Rod Langway played in 6 straight All Star Games = 1981, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, and 1986. It would seem that he had a shorter but more consistent prime than Mark Howe.

I wouldn't use that to make that conclusion. It can mean a lot of things.

Hardyvan123 said:
I am a longevity guy and Nieds beats Langway there

Not in longevity as an elite player.

Also, relative to era, you could say Langway had the better longevity when using the term in the "classic" sense. His last full time season, he was 34. 18 skaters were 34 or older. When Niedermayer played his last season at 36, 43 players were 36 or older.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 21, 2011

I was using post season all stars more than all star games for that conclusion - Langway was a factor for several seasons in a row then never again. Howe's were more spread out. The ASGs just supported that. I sure wrote it in a confusing way though. Good catch with Howe's 2nd team in the WHA as a defenseman. In still not ranking him over Quackenbush, but he's definitely near the top of my list.

seventieslord · Dec 21, 2011

TheDevilMadeMe said:
I was using post season all stars more than all star games for that conclusion - Langway was a factor for several seasons in a row then never again. Howe's were more spread out. The ASGs just supported that. I sure wrote it in a confusing way though. Good catch with Howe's 2nd team in the WHA as a defenseman. In still not ranking him over Quackenbush, but he's definitely near the top of my list.

I think I am looking at a 1-2 of Quack/Howe myself.

TheDevilMadeMe · Dec 21, 2011

The only thing that might prevent me from ranking Gerard in my top 5 is that I'm not 100% sure that he's the second best defenseman of his generation.

I am sure that he's the second best defenseman of his generation in the NHA/NHL after Cleghorn. Or more specifically, he was as good as Cleghorn but not for nearly as long.

But as many of you know, at the time, the NHA/NHL had only half the best players in the world. It was analogous to the current Eastern Conference with the PCHA and WHL analogous to the western conference. The big difference is that the competing leagues didn't play regular games against each other - only the champions from the two leagues would meet for the Cup.

So all those people who picked Gerard as one of the two best defenseman of the era (with Cleghorn) rarely if ever saw the best defenseman in PCHA history - Moose Johnson. Granted, the NHA/NHL is know for generally having better defenseman while the PCHA funneled the best players towards the rover position. But I would like to compare Eddie Gerard to Moose Johnson ideally.

On the other hand, the lack of availability of Johnson shouldn't prevent us from voting for Gerard. I said earlier that I'm certain Gerard was thought of more highly than Conacher. I also think Gerard might compare favorably with other short prime guys (Langway and Niedermayer).

Thoughts?

Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Defensemen)

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