Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Defensemen)

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
And with his single 2nd team all-star selection, how is Savard better?

Laperriere had a Norris, two 1st team and 2 second team all-star selections playing in the original 6 era, certainly more demanding than the expansion era where Savard played most of his career.

Certainly more demanding than the late 70s when the stacked teams skated around expansion teams like pylons. But certainly less competition for All Stars.

Savard has 1 2nd Team and 5 "3rd Teams" where he was 5th or 6th in voting. In many other eras, he could have had a 1st Team and 5 2nd Teams!

the downside to Laperriere I think is that he was injured in the playoffs an the team won anyway. This should be examined in more detail.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,675
18,237
Connecticut
Certainly more demanding than the late 70s when the stacked teams skated around expansion teams like pylons. But certainly less competition for All Stars.

Savard has 1 2nd Team and 5 "3rd Teams" where he was 5th or 6th in voting. In many other eras, he could have had a 1st Team and 5 2nd Teams!

the downside to Laperriere I think is that he was injured in the playoffs an the team won anyway. This should be examined in more detail.

Laperriere won the Norris Trophy that year.

Canadiens beat 3rd place Toronto 4-0 and 4th place Detroit 4-2 in the playoffs. They didn't have to face 2nd place Chicago, who was upset by Detroit.

Clearly Montreal was good enough to win even without their best defensman. Probably the case for most Montreal championship teams post-Harvey.

Besides, hard to make a case that Laperriere played on better teams than Savard did.
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
Vote 6 will begin now. Votes must be submitted between 9PM EST on Wednesday 12/21 and 9PM EST on Friday 12/23. Votes received outside this time frame will not be accepted unless you make prior arrangements with me via PM. Voting will run until the deadline or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

Please PM me your votes during the above timeframe.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 10 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 6 will be for places 26 through 30 on the Top 60 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Emile "Butch" Bouchard
Lionel Conacher
Eddie Gerard
Mark Howe
Rod Langway
Jacques Laperriere
Guy Lapointe
Scott Niedermayer
Marcel Pronovost
Bill Quackenbush
Serge Savard
Jack Stewart
J.C. Tremblay

Please note that you are voting for your top 10 of the 13 available candidates.

I'm wondering how the others are separating the purely defensive guys versus the all around performers?

Savard is the best "defensive " only guy IMO, but others might disagree and he is in my top 5 but not sure if any others are.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,781
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Offense

I guess there is no one on the boards with more first hand knowledge of this comparison.

Though I notice that when Savard and Laperriere overlapping seasons are compared, Laperriere seems to have a very slight edge in offensive numbers, though you say he lacked the offensive of the others.

And clearly Lapointe was better offensively than Savard. Was he that much better defensively than Lapointe to rank him higher?[/QUOTE]

Initially the differential reflects veteran vs rookie minutes and responsibilities. Laperriere was not a rushing defenseman, while Savard and Lapointe were. Savard also played some forward. Laperrierre never did. Post first leg fracture Savard played a very understated offensive game.

Savard`s defense allowed Robinson and Lapointe to take chances on offense.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,781
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Longevity

And with his single 2nd team all-star selection, how is Savard better?

Laperriere had a Norris, two 1st team and 2 second team all-star selections playing in the original 6 era, certainly more demanding than the expansion era where Savard played most of his career.

Savard has the longevity edge especially games played.By the time expansion happened, injuries had started taking their toll on Laperriere.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,781
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Injuries

Certainly more demanding than the late 70s when the stacked teams skated around expansion teams like pylons. But certainly less competition for All Stars.

Savard has 1 2nd Team and 5 "3rd Teams" where he was 5th or 6th in voting. In many other eras, he could have had a 1st Team and 5 2nd Teams!

the downside to Laperriere I think is that he was injured in the playoffs an the team won anyway. This should be examined in more detail.

Laperriere played thru injuries in the playoffs as well. 1973 from memory.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,836
16,567
Thoughts at this point

+ Oddity : While this was probably to be expected, 4 guys out of 15 in this round got their name on the Stanley Cup.... in 1970-71. (I'd be surprised if Savard's name doesn't appear)

+ Somebody said that this was the round were we could see more guys who weren't the best players of their team. Many players can't really be blamed for that (Pronovost being behind Red Kelly bears absolutely no impact on his ranking, because he proved he could play hockey at a really high level for a very long time and because many players would have been behind Kelly on a depth chart).

+ Speaking of Pronovost, the fact he was, for a while, behind Stewart on the Detroit depth chart means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things : not many guys played in the NHL at 19 years old.

+ Back to the "not Top-D" -- Bouchard fits the bill.

+ Conacher? Anybody has something on his playoffs performance? I mean... 4 points in 35 games, for a guy like Conacher, certainly raises questions. Also, do anything have something regarding 34-35? I don't think he should be considered has having "led" the Maroons to the Cup.

+ My questions regarding Gerard would be much more appropriate if George Boucher was available for voting -- as they'd basically give answers on Gerard. When (and how?) Boucher played forward?
 

RabbinsDuck

Registered User
Feb 1, 2008
4,761
12
Brighton, MI
Does anyone not have Savard in the top 5? The only reason I can think of is based on Norris voting, but as a defense-first player he was probably penalized in the actual results, when I feel he should have benefitted.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,836
16,567
Does anyone not have Savard in the top 5? The only reason I can think of is based on Norris voting, but as a defense-first player he was probably penalized in the actual results, when I feel he should have benefitted.

Probably.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
Does anyone not have Savard in the top 5? The only reason I can think of is based on Norris voting, but as a defense-first player he was probably penalized in the actual results, when I feel he should have benefitted.

Savard was never in the conversation for best defenseman in the world at any point in time. Bill Quackenbush, Jack Stewart, and Eddie Gerard were.

A lot has been posted about Quack and Black Jack, but from what I've read about Gerard, for about 5 years, he was just as good as Cleghorn. I'm sure more will be posted about Gerard before Wednesday. Gerard was excellent defensively, good offensively and won 4 Cups in a row, 3 as captain of the dynasty Senators, 1 as an injury sub where the injury ravaged finalist could pick any defenseman from the East. They picked Gerard over prime Cleghorn and Gerard was so good in his first game that he wasn't allowed to play in the final game (which his temporary team then won).

Not sure if I'll rank Gerard in my top 5 (he's a bit lacking in longevity though players did tend to play shorter careers then). But I'm leaning towards it.

And while I'm leaning towards Savard as the best post-expansion guy available, I'm not entirely convinced yet.
 

RabbinsDuck

Registered User
Feb 1, 2008
4,761
12
Brighton, MI
Savard was never in the conversation for best defenseman in the world at any point in time. Bill Quackenbush, Jack Stewart, and Eddie Gerard were.

A lot has been posted about Quack and Black Jack, but from what I've read about Gerard, for about 5 years, he was just as good as Cleghorn. I'm sure more will be posted about Gerard before Wednesday. Gerard was excellent defensively, good offensively and won 4 Cups in a row, 3 as captain of the dynasty Senators, 1 as an injury sub where the injury ravaged finalist could pick any defenseman from the East. They picked Gerard over prime Cleghorn and Gerard was so good in his first game that he wasn't allowed to play in the final game (which his temporary team then won).

Not sure if I'll rank Gerard in my top 5 (he's a bit lacking in longevity though players did tend to play shorter careers then). But I'm leaning towards it.

And while I'm leaning towards Savard as the best post-expansion guy available, I'm not entirely convinced yet.

I discount Gerard just like I did Cleghorn. Savard is a top defensive player post-expansion - I give that more weight than a top defensive player Pre-O6.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
I think Mark Howe should finish first in the voting this round.

Briefly stated, he was a very good two-way defenseman, and he was the best player on an excellent team.

Howe was neither a dominant defensive presence or a dominant offensive player. Rather, he excelled in transition first and foremost. He was a great skater and passer who could move the puck very effectively and drove his team's possession and territorial game while he was on the ice. The result of his game was his record of +400 in the NHL regular season and +54 in the NHL playoffs, a superb number for a player who didn't play on a dynasty.

Recapping his career:

The forward years

Howe had an extremely promising start to his career. At age 16, he played on the US Olympic team. At age 17, he dominated the Memorial Cup with a great performance that left NHL scouts drooling. At age 18, he decided to jump to the WHA to play pro with his dad instead of waiting until age 20 to join the NHL. He won the rookie of the year award and was a 2nd team all-star at LW, and his team won the AVCO Cup. At age 19 he led Houston in playoff scoring as they won the AVCO Cup again.

At the time, he was on pace to compile a winning record that would put Scott Niedermayer to shame.

But Howe couldn't maintain that meteoric pace. He surpassed his dad to become the team's top forward, and his all-around game and scoring totals increased, but he never really became a dominant forward in the WHA. When he joined the NHL with Hartford in 1979 at age 24, his career didn't look like a future HOFer.

The Hartford years

Howe's time in Hartford can be divided into two time periods - before and after the injury.

In his fourth regular season NHL game, Howe was moved back to defence. His coach wanted to give him more ice time and more scope to impact the game with his tremendous skating skills.

Howe thrived in his new position. He scored 80 points in 74 games in 1979-80, leading all defencemen, and he finished 5th in Norris voting. In the following season, Howe scored 44 points in his team's first 36 games, sitting tied for 10th in scoring among all players. In later years, Howe compared his play during those seasons as being in the style of Paul Coffey, always rushing the puck.

William Houston, Globe and Mail, May 25, 1985:
"I was never as good offensively after the accident," Howe said this week between games of the Stanley Cup final. "I used to rush the puck all the time, the way Paul Coffey does now. I haven't been able to do that since then. And my statistics are down." That might be so, but he still ranks among the best four or five defencemen in the National Hockey League.

But then Howe's career was almost ended by the gruesome injury in which he was impaled on the centre post of the net.

Amazingly, Howe returned to the ice in only six weeks. But he had dropped from 190 pounds to 168 pounds, and he struggled during the rest of the season. Hartford fell apart after Howe's injury and never recovered. Howe's struggles continued into the following season, as he was still not completely recovered. In fact, it wasn't until 4 years after his injury that he got back up to 190 pounds. (Houston, 1985)

The Philadelphia years - peak

Mark Howe was traded to the Philadelphia Flyers before the 1982-83 season. He became the face of the Flyers' transition from a team based on toughness to a more disciplined, faster team. In his first season with the Flyers, the team improved by 19 points and allowed 73 fewer goals. Howe was a close second to Rod Langway for the Norris trophy and led all d-men in postseason all-star voting.

Neil Campbell, Globe and Mail, Feb 8, 1983:
One of the problems is that there are many definitions of the phrase "most valuable." Those who vote simply for the player who has had the best season might stick with Gretzky.

But if one prefers to cast one's ballot for the player most important to his team, one might consider Boston Bruins' Pete Peeters, New Jersey Devils' Chico Resch or Philadelphia Flyers' Mark Howe.

Howe is the chief difference for the Flyers, who have the best chance to overtake the Bruins in the over-all standing down the stretch. The first really mobile defenceman the Flyers have had, he set the tone for the team's switch in emphasis from intimidation to finesse.

During his first five seasons in Philadelphia, the team was the second best regular season in the NHL, and went to two Stanley Cup finals. Mark Howe was their best player. Unfortunately for Howe and co., the Edmonton Oilers were the best team in the world at the time, and beat them in both Finals.

Howe's game matured at this time. He was no longer able to rush the puck as he had before his injury, but he improved his defensive game. And he was still a great player in transition, moving the puck and driving the play like few others could. In 1985-86, he had a great season, scoring 82 points and posting an unbelievable +85 (together with partner Brad McCrimmon.) That might be the best season by any player up for voting, although it failed to beat Paul Coffey's 138 points for the Norris trophy.

Howe posted a +11 in the 1985 playoffs and a +14 in the 1987 playoffs, leading the Flyers both times.

E.M. Swift, Sports Illustrated, May 27, 1985:
One of Gretzky's favorite ploys is to pull up as he crosses the blue line, letting the pursuit pass by him and the defense sag goalward—in effect creating open ice within which to work his wonders. When he does this, the Flyer defense must stay up and force Gretzky wide. That requires quickness, and the only Flyer defenseman who has the speed to match Gretzky's is Mark Howe. His performance—and Howe has been spectacular in the playoffs—will be the key to keeping Gretzky off a spree.

Howe, along with Edmonton's Paul Coffey, is probably the finest skating defenseman in the NHL. Unlike Coffey, he seldom gets so involved in his team's offensive thrusts that he is out of position defensively.
That should make it difficult for the Oilers to spring Gretzky on breakaways. Howe is also accustomed to an inordinate amount of ice time, especially now that Brad McCrimmon is out for the duration with a separated left shoulder. Look for Keenan to have Howe on the ice whenever Gretzky's there; and for Edmonton coach Glen Sather to counteract by getting his team to throw the puck into Howe's corner time and again in an effort to tire him out. How well Howe holds up may determine the outcome of the series.

William Houston, Globe and Mail, May 27, 1985:
Although his offensive totals were greater when he was young, Howe believes he is a much more complete player now. "The first time I was taught anything about defence was last year," he said. "Ed Van Impe (the former Flyer defenceman) helped me a lot and the new coaches have shown me little things like positioning myself in our zone and how to defend against against certain players. I can't rush the puck as much, but I think I'm a better all- round defenceman now."
Bill Lyon, Philadelphia Inquirer, Feb 26, 1986:
To appreciate the impact and the influence of Mark Howe on a hockey game requires videotape, because what he does is so subtle that it often goes unnoticed in the passions and the collisions of the moment. For the purist, for the connoisseur of the sport’s intricacies, Howe is to be savored at leisure.

You want to settle back, wind the tape, let the play unfold in slow motion, and watch his true worth emerge; the 2-on-1 break that is casually defused, the quick, precise pass that generates the bust-out from your own end, the calm control of the puck while setting the proper power-play alignment, the anticipation and the interception while killing a penalty. Textbook stuff, all of it, clinical, complete.

For the last decade or so, it has been widely agreed that the best way to observe how one player can dictate the outcome of a basketball game while never dominating the ball is to watch Bobby Jones of the Philadelphia 76ers. Mark Howe of the Philadelphia Flyers is hockey’s version of this phenomenon. No wasted motion. No frills. No French pastry. No curlicues and flourishes. No flamboyance. No flair.

His game is clean, crisp, economical. It does not call attention to itself. Neither does he. His game face is always sternly in place, eyes squinting in study, face puckered in concentration, He is quiet, introspective.

If he threw off more rooster tail sprays of ice and trash-talk, maybe he finally would get some of the things that should be coming to him, like, for starters, the Norris Trophy as hockey’s most accomplished defenseman.

The problem is, Howe is not a specialist. He does everything well. And in an understated manner. A Paul Coffey, a Ray Bourque may have better offensive numbers, and a Rod Langway may be regarded as the prototypical defensive defenseman, but Howe is the more complete player, the all-round contributor. He can stem a rush with one flick of his stick, can accelerate himself end-to-end and turn a steal into a goal, can handle most any position on the power play, can kill off penalties adroitly, shrewdly.

That doesn’t leave much else.

But he remains one of those players whose stats forever sneak up on people.

Craig Wolff, New York Times, Apr 21, 1987:
From where Mark Howe sees it in the deep end of the ice where he smoothly gathers up the puck, bodies are usually flying around in front of him, someone is usually falling over someone else, and maybe, someone is throwing a punch. Then he starts out.

If the opening is there, he will take the puck all the way in. If it is there for someone else, he will thread a pass. If there is no opening, he will perhaps circle, hang back, wait.

It is a patient game the non-star defenseman of the Philadelphia Flyers plays, a stop-see and do-whatever-is-called-for style. It is his style that is really the foundation of the Flyers. But unless you are tuned to it, you might only notice the more extravagant parts of the Flyers game – Tim Kerr knocking in pucks, the gritty center Dave Poulin weaving in, the goalie, Ron Hextall, clanging his stick on the goal pipes, or Dave Brown knocking over bodies.

Meanwhile, Howe is out there, moving in one of his several different speeds, and quietly. That’s why he’s the non-star, the players the Flyers trust will never break down.

“It is a very comforting feeling” said his coach, Mike Keenan, “that when I start writing down my lineup, I can start with Mark.”

“He really never does anything wrong,” said his general manager, Bobby Clarke, a former teammate. “And I’ve never seen a player who can bring his game to so many different levels. He’s like a base-stealer who steals only when it will help his team.”

Robert Fachet, Montreal Gazette, May 6, 1987:
The Flyers scored three equal-strength goals in their 4-3 victory and Howe was on the ice for all of them. Not surprisingly, he watched Montreal's two equal-strength scores from the bench.

The plus-three night lifted Howe to plus-19, tops for the playoffs; his closest pursuers are partner Brad McCrimmon and Canadiens defenceman Rick Green, both plus-13.

Howe led the NHL a year ago with a remarkable plus-85 rating. This season, forced to sit out 11 games because of the sore back, he slipped to plus-57. Only Edmonton's Wayne Gretzky (plus-70) was better.

Is Howe that good, or do the statistics lie? McCrimmon, who has benefited from three years at Howe's side, believes he is that good.

"He can do everything," McCrimmon said. "He's got all the skills and he gets the job done every night. The big thing is he stays within the team concept. As a team, we work, we try to keep the puck out of our own end and our net. It's a team-style philosophy, all five men on the ice working together, not an individual style. Mark may have more talent than the rest of us, but he never breaks things down by trying to do too much."

Asked to define defence, Howe responds in similar fashion: "Defence is all five guys working patiently, waiting for the breaks.

"I've changed my style since my two years in Hartford, where my job was to get more involved in the offence. Here my job is to get the puck out of our end. I get involved when I can, but this is a more defensive-minded team."

Of his closely meshed partnership with McCrimmon, Howe said, "We've been paired for three full years and we've been roommates the whole time. When you play with the same people, you kind of develop a natural instinct and we have that.

"I can throw blind passes and I know he'll be there. Somebody else, I'll throw a blind pass and, when the guy isn't there, I'll wonder, 'Now why isn't he there?'

Injury struggles

Howe sustained a knee injury from a Mark Messier hit in Game 1 of the 1987 Stanley Cup finals, and knee and back problems plagued him during the late 80s and early 90s. Philadelphia fell off from being a Cup contender to struggling to make the playoffs. Part of this was because players like McCrimmon and Propp were traded away. Part was because Mark Howe couldn't stay on the ice. He played only 101 regular season games in a three year stretch where the Flyers narrowly missed the playoffs in a tough Patrick division three times in a row.

Final chapter

Howe moved on to Detroit for the final three seasons of his career in an effort to win the Stanley Cup that had eluded him. He was one of the oldest players in the league at this point, and played in a bottom pairing role. After Detroit lost to New Jersey in the 1995 Cup Finals, Howe hung up his skates at the age of 40.
 
Last edited:

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
Does anyone not have Savard in the top 5? The only reason I can think of is based on Norris voting, but as a defense-first player he was probably penalized in the actual results, when I feel he should have benefitted.

IMO Savard should be in the top 5 but I also believe that Nieds should be as well.

Savard was never in the conversation for best defenseman in the world at any point in time. Bill Quackenbush, Jack Stewart, and Eddie Gerard were.

While this is true what does it really mean?

Were any of those 3 guys better than Orr, Robinson and Potvin in the years being compared?

I highly doubt it otherwise they would have come up higher for voting. and let's not confuse MVP voting from the time period to now either as it was much more common for Dmen to be considered.

It is widely accepted that Bill and Jack played in a pretty weak era (when they were considered for the title) and for Gerard hockey was still a very evolving game with leagues and players moving all over the place, it's really hard to get a handle on how good he was and how good his competition was as well.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
Not sure if I'll rank Gerard in my top 5 (he's a bit lacking in longevity though players did tend to play shorter careers then). But I'm leaning towards it.

Gerard only played 5 seasons at defence, I believe. But what a 5 year stretch!

Not sure if I've seen it written explicitly, but the high placement of Gerard and Cleghorn on all-time teams that old-timers named suggests that the Gerard-Cleghorn pairing on Ottawa was considered the greatest of all time at one point.

FWIW, his career didn't end because of ineffectiveness, or even on-ice injury. It was because he had a growth in his throat that prevented him from breathing properly, and his doctor told him his playing days were over. As a former player-coach and a great on-ice leader, he was in great demand as a coach immediately after his retirement and he went on to become a successful NHL coach.

His career was shortened, but after leading three Stanley Cup winners and playing for another one, it was hardly a disappointing career.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
I remember Niedermayer in the mix with Pronger for the best defenseman in the league not named Lidstrom. I don't remember him in the mix with Lidstrom over any decent length of time.

That does bring an interesting argument though - in a European-less NHL, does Niedermayer win 3 straight Norris trophies?

Niedermayer won the Norris in 2003-04, of course.

Niedermayer was in the conversation with Lidstrom for much of 2005-06. He got a lot of buzz for turning Anaheim around. Lidstrom ended up with the better season, but it wasn't a slam dunk.

And during the 2006-07 season, most of the discussion had Lidstrom/Pronger/Niedermayer as a "big three." Pronger and Niedermayer were getting more buzz earlier in the season. Before Pronger was injured, he was an early Norris favourite. And it was Niedermayer who led the all-star voting for defencemen, and Lidstrom who edged out Rory Fitzpatrick for the second starting spot.
 

RabbinsDuck

Registered User
Feb 1, 2008
4,761
12
Brighton, MI
Gerard only played 5 seasons at defence, I believe. But what a 5 year stretch!

Not sure if I've seen it written explicitly, but the high placement of Gerard and Cleghorn on all-time teams that old-timers named suggests that the Gerard-Cleghorn pairing on Ottawa was considered the greatest of all time at one point.

5 years makes it awfully hard to see him this early, for me. The defensemen at this point in the voting do not have 5 'Norris Caliber' seasons, but all of them have far more than 5 years as a top-pairing, valuable to their team, defensemen.
 

tony d

New poll series coming from me on June 3
Jun 23, 2007
76,599
4,556
Behind A Tree
Back to the Savard discussion, the guy was a pretty good defensive defenseman, perhaps one of the best of his era, I fully expect him to be in the top 5 this time.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
5 years makes it awfully hard to see him this early, for me. The defensemen at this point in the voting do not have 5 'Norris Caliber' seasons, but all of them have far more than 5 years as a top-pairing, valuable to their team, defensemen.

Gerard was a highly sought after amateur hockey player, who did not turn professional until the age of 23 despite receiving numerous offers, not an uncommon practice in the day. After he turned pro, he had a 10 year career as an impact player, 4 years at forward in the NHA, then 6 years as a superstar defenseman in the NHL (which was basically the NHA under a different name). He retired at the age of 33 (a fairly typical age to retire back then) from a condition that would have been easily treatable with modern medicine.

Gerard was one of the first 12 inductees into the HHOF (being dead at the time sure helped but the Hall didn't induct every dead star right away). He was definitely thought of more highly as a hockey player than Lionel Conacher.

Edit: in Gerard's last season, he led the NHL (the eastern league) in assists among all players in the regular season, then went on to win his 4th Cup in a row as a "ringer" brought in by Toronto when they could have picked any defenseman from the eastern league. So I think it's clear he could have continued as a star player if it weren't for the growth on his throat
 
Last edited:

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,982
Brooklyn
Niedermayer won the Norris in 2003-04, of course.

Niedermayer was in the conversation with Lidstrom for much of 2005-06. He got a lot of buzz for turning Anaheim around. Lidstrom ended up with the better season, but it wasn't a slam dunk.

And during the 2006-07 season, most of the discussion had Lidstrom/Pronger/Niedermayer as a "big three." Pronger and Niedermayer were getting more buzz earlier in the season. Before Pronger was injured, he was an early Norris favourite. And it was Niedermayer who led the all-star voting for defencemen, and Lidstrom who edged out Rory Fitzpatrick for the second starting spot.

Niedermayer got a lot of hype both seasons, but in the end, Lidstrom tripled his first place votes fr the Norris in 2006 and doubled his first place votes for the Norris in 2007. And it shouldn't have even been that close IMO - Lidstrom scored more points and was better defensively. Nieds was much flashier. In weaker seasons (such as 2010 or 2011), Nieds level of play could have easily been Norris worthy though.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,836
16,567
I think Mark Howe should finish first in the voting this round.

Briefly stated, he was a very good two-way defenseman, and he was the best player on an excellent team.

Howe was neither a dominant defensive presence or a dominant offensive player. Rather, he excelled in transition first and foremost. He was a great skater and passer who could move the puck very effectively and drove his team's possession and territorial game while he was on the ice. The result of his game was his record of +400 in the NHL regular season and +54 in the NHL playoffs, a superb number for a player who didn't play on a dynasty.

Recapping his career:

The forward years

Howe had an extremely promising start to his career. At age 16, he played on the US Olympic team. At age 17, he dominated the Memorial Cup with a great performance that left NHL scouts drooling. At age 18, he decided to jump to the WHA to play pro with his dad instead of waiting until age 20 to join the NHL. He won the rookie of the year award and was a 2nd team all-star at LW, and his team won the AVCO Cup. At age 19 he led Houston in playoff scoring as they won the AVCO Cup again.

At the time, he was on pace to compile a winning record that would put Scott Niedermayer to shame.

But Howe couldn't maintain that meteoric pace. He surpassed his dad to become the team's top forward, and his all-around game and scoring totals increased, but he never really became a dominant forward in the WHA. When he joined the NHL with Hartford in 1979 at age 24, his career didn't look like a future HOFer.

The Hartford years

Howe's time in Hartford can be divided into two time periods - before and after the injury.

In his fourth regular season NHL game, Howe was moved back to defence. His coach wanted to give him more ice time and more scope to impact the game with his tremendous skating skills.

Howe thrived in his new position. He scored 80 points in 74 games in 1979-80, leading all defencemen, and he finished 5th in Norris voting. In the following season, Howe scored 44 points in his team's first 36 games, sitting tied for 10th in scoring among all players. In later years, Howe compared his play during those seasons as being in the style of Paul Coffey, always rushing the puck.

William Houston, Globe and Mail, May 25, 1985:

But then Howe's career was almost ended by the gruesome injury in which he was impaled on the centre post of the net.

Amazingly, Howe returned to the ice in only six weeks. But he had dropped from 190 pounds to 168 pounds, and he struggled during the rest of the season. Hartford fell apart after Howe's injury and never recovered. Howe's struggles continued into the following season, as he was still not completely recovered. In fact, it wasn't until 4 years after his injury that he got back up to 190 pounds. (Houston, 1985)

The Philadelphia years - peak

Mark Howe was traded to the Philadelphia Flyers before the 1982-83 season. He became the face of the Flyers' transition from a team based on toughness to a more disciplined, faster team. In his first season with the Flyers, the team improved by 19 points and allowed 73 fewer goals. Howe was a close second to Rod Langway for the Norris trophy and led all d-men in postseason all-star voting.

Neil Campbell, Globe and Mail, Feb 8, 1983:


During his first five seasons in Philadelphia, the team was the second best regular season in the NHL, and went to two Stanley Cup finals. Mark Howe was their best player. Unfortunately for Howe and co., the Edmonton Oilers were the best team in the world at the time, and beat them in both Finals.

Howe's game matured at this time. He was no longer able to rush the puck as he had before his injury, but he improved his defensive game. And he was still a great player in transition, moving the puck and driving the play like few others could. In 1985-86, he had a great season, scoring 82 points and posting an unbelievable +85 (together with partner Brad McCrimmon.) That might be the best season by any player up for voting, although it failed to beat Paul Coffey's 138 points for the Norris trophy.

Howe posted a +11 in the 1985 playoffs and a +14 in the 1987 playoffs, leading the Flyers both times.

E.M. Swift, Sports Illustrated, May 27, 1985:

William Houston, Globe and Mail, May 27, 1985:
Bill Lyon, Philadelphia Inquirer, Feb 26, 1986:

Craig Wolff, New York Times, Apr 21, 1987:

Robert Fachet, Montreal Gazette, May 6, 1987:

Injury struggles

Howe sustained a knee injury from a Mark Messier hit in Game 1 of the 1987 Stanley Cup finals, and knee and back problems plagued him during the late 80s and early 90s. Philadelphia fell off from being a Cup contender to struggling to make the playoffs. Part of this was because players like McCrimmon and Propp were traded away. Part was because Mark Howe couldn't stay on the ice. He played only 101 regular season games in a three year stretch where the Flyers narrowly missed the playoffs in a tough Patrick division three times in a row.

Final chapter

Howe moved on to Detroit for the final three seasons of his career in an effort to win the Stanley Cup that had eluded him. He was one of the oldest players in the league at this point, and played in a bottom pairing role. After Detroit lost to New Jersey in the 1995 Cup Finals, Howe hung up his skates at the age of 40.

Back to the Savard discussion, the guy was a pretty good defensive defenseman, perhaps one of the best of his era, I fully expect him to be in the top 5 this time.

Gerard was a highly sought after amateur hockey player, who did not turn professional until the age of 23 despite receiving numerous offers, not an uncommon practice in the day. After he turned pro, he had a 10 year career as an impact player, 4 years at forward in the NHA, then 6 years as a superstar defenseman in the NHL (which was basically the NHA under a different name). He retired at the age of 33 (a fairly typical age to retire back then) from a condition that would have been easily treatable with modern medicine.

Gerard was one of the first 12 inductees into the HHOF (being dead at the time sure helped but the Hall didn't induct every dead star right away). He was definitely thought of more highly as a hockey player than Lionel Conacher.

Edit: in Gerard's last season, he led the NHL (the eastern league) in assists among all players in the regular season, then went on to win his 4th Cup in a row as a "ringer" brought in by Toronto when they could have picked any defenseman from the eastern league. So I think it's clear he could have continued as a star player if it weren't for the growth on his throat

I concur with everything quoted.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,836
16,567
Oh, and about Nieds :

If we say that Lidstrom had "bad competition" and that Pronger, and to a certain extent Stevens and MacInnis (due to not being in their prime), are already in...

It totally make sense for Nieds to be not voted in yet.

My final ranking isn't established, but Nieds isn't likely to end up Top-5, and I wouldn't qualify him as a Top-10 lock either. Amongst new entries, Gerard, Pronovost are ahead of him. Lapointe, Savard, Quackenbush and Howe are also definitely ahead of him.

(everything IMO)
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad