You need to learn more about this era before you come in here spouting this kind of stuff.
This counterpoint will not be limited to the NHL but will look briefly at his NHA effort, specifically the 1915 Stanley Cup Final vs Vancouver. Played in Vancouver. Ottawa had 5 HHOFers inc Clint Benedict yet lost three straight: 6-2,8-3,12-3. Clint Benedict had a 8.66 GAA, hardly Stanley Cup Final quality goaltending - more on a par with the goalies from Maritime League finalists or Dawson City.
Benedict was 22 and hadn't hit his prime. The Westerners caught them by surprise big-time. And Vancouver had 7 HHOFers - Hugh Lehman, Frank Patrick, Cyclone Taylor, Mickey MacKay, Frank Nighbor, Barney Stanley, and Si Griffis. It was quite possibly the most awesome collection of talent ever assembed in the entire pre-merger era.
Ottawa was very green, too. Broadbent was 22. Darragh was 24. Gerard was 25. The only truly great player in his prime was 29-year old Art Ross.
Of course, the Trail Of the Stanley cup outlines how Nighbor had the Ottawa forwards dumbfounded with his awesome combination of offense and defense, and how tying up Cyclone Taylor and Mickey macKay was Ottawa's primary focus, and they focused on it so hard in game 3, that they allowed Stanley to come out and score 4 goals. Vancouver had so many weapons that there was really little anyone could do.
But yeah, go ahead and put all the blame at Benedict's feet since it suits your agenda. And when picking out info from The Trail, don't forget to omit the part about him being selected as the best goalie of the 1893-1926 period. And of course, Taylor was nowhere near as good as we ended up ranking him, right? And you'll doubt forget how good Nighbor was in the 1915 finals when it comes time to rank him too. Hell, everyone sucked back then!
For someone who owns The Trail, your appreciation of this era of hockey is nothing short of
brutal.
Clint Benedict was a member of the dynasty Ottawa Senators 1920-1923, three Stanley Cup Championships in four seasons. In those days teams played with 10 man rosters. A typical Senators roster featured seven HHOFers including Clint Benedict supported by up to three HHOF quality defensemen from Cleghorn,Gerard, Boucher, Clancy and HHOF defensive forwards like Darragh, Cy Dennenny, Frank Nighbour. In terms of a HHOF supporting cast Clint Benedict had a better supporting cast than Terry Sawchuk, Jacques Plante, Billy Smith, Grant Fuhr or Turk Broda.
that's a slanted view.
At any point throughout history there has been roughly a constant number of hall of famers in the league at one time. But not always the same number of teams. So in 1923 when there were only four teams, OBVIOUSLY there is likely to be a lot on one team. For example, in 1923, Ottawa had 8 HHOFers including Benedict. the other teams had 5, 4, and 1. Relative to the strength of the league, Benedict's supporting cast, particularly on defense, was right at the level guys like Dryden, Bower, and Brodeur enjoyed.
Oh, and I have something to say about Cy Denneny and Jack Darragh being "defensive forwards"... here it is............
HO has posted some interesting data but let's look at the details.
Between 1920-23 the NHL played a 24 game regular season Initially divided into first half / second half, 12 game segments. Let's look at Clint Benedict's performance.
1919-20: first half 23 GA, second half 41 GA
1920-21: first half 23 GA, second half 52 GA
1921-22: first half 32 GA, second half 52 GA
1922-23: first half 27 GA, second half 27 GA
significant drop in performance as the season progressed.For a dynasty team and a quality goalie the expectation would be the opposite. This lack of consistency is very revealing.Source, Trail of the Stanley Cup VolI.
Revealing of what?
- In 1920 scoring rose in the second half of the season, across the board. There were 26 more goals scored in the second half so every team should have allowed an average of 5-6 more goals each. Benedict's senators allowed 18 more. Not sure why. But their W/L record got better even though they only scored 3 more goals.
- When were you planning on telling everyone that the first "half" of the 1921 season was 10 games long and the second "half" was 14 games long:
Talk about deceptive! Of course, Benedict's GAA went up from 2.3 in the first section to 3.7 in the second. It's just not the ridiculous collapse you're making it out to be.
What you of course failed to mention is that:
- In three of those four seasons Benedict ultimately ended up as the win leader, as well as leading the NHL in GAA by an average of 20% over the next best goalie each year. So what does it matter that he allowed more goals in the second half?
- Benedict's GAA dropped considerably in the playoffs in each of those four seasons, by 0.46, 1.09, 0.34, and 1.18.
By your logic, this is even more important. The later it is in the season, the more important the games, right? Well, if his GAA rises in the second half of the season you must credit him for dropping it considerably in the playoffs. You might say "significant drop in GAA as the season progressed into the playoffs.For a dynasty team and a quality goalie the expectation would be exactly this. This clutch play is very revealing."
The 1926 Montreal Maroons Stanley Cup team featured five HHOFers including Clint Benedict. They were an interesting team as three of the forwards used to play defense as did Nels Stewart. Not exactly an expansion team.
That is not true.
Siebert ended up on defense much later in his career but had never played defense before.
Stewart had never played forward before, he only played D in the playoffs after Munro got injured. Those 7 games were the only games he ever played on D.
Noble started playing defense that season but had only been one briefly for a part of the 1919 season prior to that.
So which three players who played forward on the 1926 Maroons used to play defense? And supposing that there were three such players, what would your point be?
Another telling aspect of Benedict's career is his last season, 1929-30. Forward passing was introduced in the offensive zone and goals increased. Clint Benedict did not adapt well - evidenced by his GAA even though he was on a first place team. Quickly he was replaced by Flat Walsh:
Benedict was 37 years old and was hit in the face by shots from Dit Clapper and then Howie Morenz. He was out for a while and then tried coming back with a mask. He didn't like it, and retired. Surely you know this story... But no, make it sound like he got replaced by some scrub we never heard of, because he sucked!
At face value the numbers look attractive but upon scrutiny we see an extremely weak SC final-1915, a lack of consistency despite extremely strong HHOF caliber teammates, especially defensemen and an inability to adapt to new rules despite playing on a first place team. Sorry, not the stuff of an elite goalie.
Yes, good for you, you have managed to point out that:
A) Benedict and the whole Ottawa team had a brutal 1915 SCF,
B) Benedict's GAA during his prime went up during the second half of three seasons and he still led the league in wins and GAA each time, and
C) He was not at his best at age 37, then got hit in the head in successive games and retired.
Wow! What a bum he was!!!
Every single goalie has had his bad moments. The only one who was immune was Dryden. Plante was being booed in Montreal and looked awfully human in New York. Hasek would seem to be injured longer than you would think he should be, and of course he lost his job to Chris Osgood in 2008. Roy had these awful long goals, a couple stinkers of semifinals, and of course the Statue of Liberty gaffe. Brodeur has done nothing since losing his elite defense, making everyone else wonder what some of us have all along. Hall couldn't get it done in the playoffs. Sawchuk drank and quit on his team. And so on. The only goalie with a perfectly sparkling resume played only 8 years. EVERY great goalie has minor blemishes on their record! And none of them get to go out on top. Roy didn't. Hall didn't. Sawchuk didn't. Hasek didn't. Plante didn't. At this rate, Brodeur won't. This is nothing new.
