Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Defensemen)

VanIslander

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A strong case could be made that Paul Coffey never had top-10 defensive ability.

Offense vs. defense vs. both.

Should an offensive defenseman count more than a defensive defenseman? Of course, a well-rounded two-way force is ideal, but how important is a balance of abilities when compared to an exceptional skill?

Guys like Pronger and Stevens showed us dominance at both ends of the ice. We are past those guys and into guys whose all around game was great but not fantastic, or who had fantastic but incomplete skillsets or resumes.
 

Canadiens1958

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Team Needs

A strong case could be made that Paul Coffey never had top-10 defensive ability.

Offense vs. defense vs. both.

Should an offensive defenseman count more than a defensive defenseman? Of course, a well-rounded two-way force is ideal, but how important is a balance of abilities when compared to an exceptional skill?

Guys like Pronger and Stevens showed us dominance at both ends of the ice. We are past those guys and into guys whose all around game was great but not fantastic, or who had fantastic but incomplete skillsets or resumes.

Regardless it comes down to team needs at a specific time. Certain players have the ability to get in sync with team needs - Scott Stevens, Doug Harvey being prime examples as well as Rod Langway in Washington. Others do not. Paul Coffey being a prime example. Great talent, Multiple Norris winner but not always in sync with the teams needs at a specific time.
 

Dreakmur

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Should an offensive defenseman count more than a defensive defenseman? Of course, a well-rounded two-way force is ideal, but how important is a balance of abilities when compared to an exceptional skill?

Agreed that being good at both is best, but guys who are elite offensively and sub-par defensively are more valuable and better overall than guys who are elite defensively and sub-par offensively.
 

BraveCanadian

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Agreed that being good at both is best, but guys who are elite offensively and sub-par defensively are more valuable and better overall than guys who are elite defensively and sub-par offensively.

I tend to agree. To some degree offense = defense and vice versa but effective offensive talent is more rare, and at the end of the day you have to score to win.

That said, I too prefer guys who are great at both.
 

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin, Mark Howe, Paul Coffey, Ray Bourque, and some others.

I don't think that's what TDDM was looking for...

And a thing is sure : those years weren't Big Bird's best.
 

BraveCanadian

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They were not.... but he was still much better than Langway.

I question Langway's Norris trophies as much as the next guy but when you look at how dramatically that team improved and the credit he was given as the reason... well.. sometimes the stats don't say everything.

And I think every agrees he was great defensively at least.
 

Dreakmur

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I question Langway's Norris trophies as much as the next guy but when you look at how dramatically that team improved and the credit he was given as the reason... well.. sometimes the stats don't say everything.

And I think every agrees he was great defensively at least.

Langway wasn't the only change made to the team right before the turn-around.

Langway was traded with a few other guys who also made an impact. Scott Stevens also arrived on the scene. More importantly, the Caps brought in a new coach that season.
 

BraveCanadian

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Langway wasn't the only change made to the team right before the turn-around.

Langway was traded with a few other guys who also made an impact. Scott Stevens also arrived on the scene. More importantly, the Caps brought in a new coach that season.

Nothing here challenges anything in my post. I never said he was the only reason, just that he got a lot of credit for his great play. 18 yr Scott Stevens was not a difference maker at the time, and Murray was there most of the year previous too.

Langway was great defensively, his team improved dramatically, and he was the best defenseman according to the contemporary voters.

Like I said, I question the wins too, but there is obviously a pretty good case to be made for him winning them as well. Especially the first one, I think.
 

RabbinsDuck

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Agreed that being good at both is best, but guys who are elite offensively and sub-par defensively are more valuable and better overall than guys who are elite defensively and sub-par offensively.

I disagree.

A defensemen, positionally, is in a place where he can make far more of a difference defensively, than offensively.

Consider, the greatest offensive defensemen of all-time are no where near the best offensive forwards of all-time.

If I were to throw a half-hearted attempt at a breakdown, I weight forwards overall at 70% offense and 30% defense (maybe even 80/20) and defensemen at 60% defense and 40% offense.

Fact is, defensemen are heavily weighted more towards offense, at least by the media, and I view that as a big mistake and misunderstanding of positional play in hockey.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Does anyone view Langway as better than Savard? I definitely have Savard a clear, but not huge, level above.

I tend to agree. I realize Langway has a better regular season trophy case, but it's a regular season trophy case. Maybe I'm biased from watching so much Scott Stevens, but to me, a shutdown defenseman truly shows his worth in the playoffs, and who did Langway shut down in the playoffs?

If someone else wants to take a closer look at Washington's playoff failures, it could be helpful. Maybe Langway did everything he could and the forwards couldn't score?

Serge Savard, on the other hand, won the Conn Smythe 4 years before Larry Robinson even entered the league, before his injury forced him to adjust his game.

legendsofhockey said:
By the 1968-69 season, only his second full one in the NHL, he won the Conn Smythe Trophy as the Habs won the Cup in a four-game sweep over the Blues in the finals... [he broke both his legs in 1971]... But the injuries failed to stop Savard. Upon his return to the game, he started to blend his patient, hard-working style with the hard-charging, rushing play of Lapointe and Robinson...

Here's a profile I made of Savard when I had him in the ATD a few years ago: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=21244645&postcount=550

I disagree.

A defensemen, positionally, is in a place where he can make far more of a difference defensively, than offensively.

Consider, the greatest offensive defensemen of all-time are no where near the best offensive forwards of all-time.

If I were to throw a half-hearted attempt at a breakdown, I weight forwards overall at 70% offense and 30% defense (maybe even 80/20) and defensemen at 60% defense and 40% offense.


Fact is, defensemen are heavily weighted more towards offense, at least by the media, and I view that as a big mistake and misunderstanding of positional play in hockey.

Seems like a reasonable breakdown to me.
 

Dennis Bonvie

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Does anyone view Langway as better than Savard? I definitely have Savard a clear, but not huge, level above.

I do.

Not sure how many here got to see Langway play.

He was a defensive force.

And the 2 years before going to Washington, his numbers in Montreal were:

80 11-34-45 +53

66 5-34-39 +66
 

overpass

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Here are some articles that describe Mark Howe's style of play, for those who didn't see him play. I've included links, with excerpts.

Bill Lyon, Philadelphia Inquirer, Feb 26, 1986:
It’s not just domination, it’s Howe he dominates

In a sport that sometimes flows with balletic grace and sometimes sounds like metal-on-metal on the freeway, Mark Howe has managed the remarkable feat of hiding himself.

To appreciate the impact and the influence of Mark Howe on a hockey game requires videotape, because what he does is so subtle that it often goes unnoticed in the passions and the collisions of the moment. For the purist, for the connoisseur of the sport’s intricacies, Howe is to be savored at leisure.

You want to settle back, wind the tape, let the play unfold in slow motion, and watch his true worth emerge; the 2-on-1 break that is casually defused, the quick, precise pass that generates the bust-out from your own end, the calm control of the puck while setting the proper power-play alignment, the anticipation and the interception while killing a penalty. Textbook stuff, all of it, clinical, complete.

For the last decade or so, it has been widely agreed that the best way to observe how one player can dictate the outcome of a basketball game while never dominating the ball is to watch Bobby Jones of the Philadelphia 76ers. Mark Howe of the Philadelphia Flyers is hockey’s version of this phenomenon. No wasted motion. No frills. No French pastry. No curlicues and flourishes. No flamboyance. No flair.

His game is clean, crisp, economical. It does not call attention to itself. Neither does he. His game face is always sternly in place, eyes squinting in study, face puckered in concentration, He is quiet, introspective.

If he threw off more rooster tail sprays of ice and trash-talk, maybe he finally would get some of the things that should be coming to him, like, for starters, the Norris Trophy as hockey’s most accomplished defenseman.

The problem is, Howe is not a specialist. He does everything well. And in an understated manner. A Paul Coffey, a Ray Bourque may have better offensive numbers, and a Rod Langway may be regarded as the prototypical defensive defenseman, but Howe is the more complete player, the all-round contributor. He can stem a rush with one flick of his stick, can accelerate himself end-to-end and turn a steal into a goal, can handle most any position on the power play, can kill off penalties adroitly, shrewdly.

That doesn’t leave much else.

But he remains one of those players whose stats forever sneak up on people.


Craig Wolff of the New York Times, April 21, 1987
Howe quietly making his mark

From where Mark Howe sees it in the deep end of the ice where he smoothly gathers up the puck, bodies are usually flying around in front of him, someone is usually falling over someone else, and maybe, someone is throwing a punch. Then he starts out.

If the opening is there, he will take the puck all the way in. If it is there for someone else, he will thread a pass. If there is no opening, he will perhaps circle, hang back, wait.

It is a patient game the non-star defenseman of the Philadelphia Flyers plays, a stop-see and do-whatever-is-called-for style. It is his style that is really the foundation of the Flyers. But unless you are tuned to it, you might only notice the more extravagant parts of the Flyers game – Tim Kerr knocking in pucks, the gritty center Dave Poulin weaving in, the goalie, Ron Hextall, clanging his stick on the goal pipes, or Dave Brown knocking over bodies.

Meanwhile, Howe is out there, moving in one of his several different speeds, and quietly. That’s why he’s the non-star, the players the Flyers trust will never break down.

“It is a very comforting feeling†said his coach, Mike Keenan, “that when I start writing down my lineup, I can start with Mark.â€

“He really never does anything wrong,†said his general manager, Bobby Clarke, a former teammate. “And I’ve never seen a player who can bring his game to so many different levels. He’s like a base-stealer who steals only when it will help his team.â€

Jack Falla, Sports Illustrated, Jan 17, 1983:
Perhaps the best indication of how highly the Flyers regard him is that they gave up top scorer Ken Linseman, a 1983 No. 1 draft choice and Forward Greg Adams to get what Philadelphia General Manager Keith Allen calls "a defenseman who ranks up there with the Denis Potvins and Ray Bourques."

It may seem odd that Howe's highly polished skills—"My game is skating, passing and moving the puck," he says—would be sought by Philadelphia, a team that traditionally has specialized in on-ice muggings. But Howe, whom Philadelphia Coach Bob McCammon calls "the best offensive defenseman we've ever had here and a superb playmaker," is representative of the reforming Flyers. When he took over last March, McCammon began fining players who took needless penalties. McCammon emphasizes speed and playmaking. McCammon coaches Howe's kind of hockey.

"Dad was mean with those elbows, and I know he was a pretty good fighter," says Mark. "But in Dad's day you were almost expected to fight your way into the league. The emphasis today is much more on skating." Indeed, Mark didn't take his first penalty this season until the 21st game. "He's not real physical," says Flyer veteran Bobby Clarke, who is, "but he doesn't have to be. He's so mobile he always gets a piece of you, just enough to throw you off the puck."
 

Hardyvan123

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All All-Star Teams of Lapointe, Savard, and Salming were in this time period.
  • After a few great seasons in Sweden, Salming jumped to the NHL in 1973-74. By his second NHL season, he was considered among the league's best. He played until 1989-90 though accumulated no more All-Star teams in the 1980s.
  • Lapointe played from 1970-71 to 1983-84, but really started to struggle with injuries in 1977-78.
  • Savard played from 1967-68 to 1982-83.

"Third teams" are from HO's study.

Season | 1st AST | 1st AST | 2nd AST | 2nd AST | 3rd AST | 3rd AST
1972-73 | Bobby Orr | Guy Lapointe | Brad Park | Bill White | Jacques Laperriere | Serge Savard
1973-74 | Bobby Orr | Brad Park | Barry Ashbee | Bill White | Guy Lapointe | Carol Vadnais
1974-75 | Bobby Orr | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Brad Park | Serge Savard
1975-76 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Jimmy Watson
1976-77 | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Guy Lapointe | Denis Potvin | Serge Savard | Brad Park
1977-78 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Barry Beck
1978-79 | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Barry Beck | Guy Lapointe
1979-80 | Raymond Bourque | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Jim Schoenfeld | Mark Howe | Barry Beck

Their records with "Third Teams" included:
  • Salming: 1 x 1st, 5 x 2nd, 0 x 3rd
  • Savard: 0 x 1st, 1 x 2nd, 5 x 3rd
  • Lapointe: 1 x 1st, 3 x 2nd, 2 x 3rd

Keep in mind the following:
  • Savard, as a defensive defenseman in the post-expansion era was likely underrated a bit by All Star Teams
  • All Star Teams don't speak of playoff performances and only Savard has a Conn Smythe
  • Guy Lapointe's 1st Team next to Orr in 1972-73 looks impressive at first glance, but he barely beat out Brad Park and Bill White when Park only played 52 of 78 games. Point totals were Orr 236, Lapointe 125, Park 118, White 112

Since Vasiliev is up this round and has his peak in this time period I wonder where he might slot on these 3 teams from year to year?

I fully understand that he was the best Dman in Russia during this time period but exactly how would his game have translated to the NHL, would it have been any better than Savard for instance?

Most of our exposure to him in through limited international competition and not always with the best on best competition and their is always the question of how the "system" might be greater than the sum of the parts.

I'm really not sure where to slot him but am doubtful that he is going to make my top 5 this round.
 

overpass

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Regular season adjusted stats for post-1967 defencemen​

Career Stats
Player | Start | End | GP | EV% | R-ON | R-OFF | $ESP | PPP | PP% | TmPP+ | SH% | TmSH+
Serge Savard | 1968 | 1983 | 1038 | 43% | 1.44 | 1.52 | 25 | 9 | 24% | 1.32 | 58% | 0.82
Guy Lapointe | 1969 | 1984 | 884 | 42% | 1.41 | 1.66 | 31 | 28 | 64% | 1.29 | 52% | 0.76
Borje Salming | 1974 | 1990 | 1148 | 43% | 1.14 | 0.82 | 31 | 22 | 62% | 0.98 | 55% | 1.09
Mark Howe | 1980 | 1995 | 929 | 38% | 1.48 | 0.97 | 35 | 21 | 58% | 0.99 | 41% | 0.87
Rod Langway | 1979 | 1993 | 994 | 35% | 1.29 | 1.20 | 20 | 3 | 10% | 1.02 | 53% | 0.83
Brian Leetch | 1988 | 2006 | 1205 | 45% | 1.06 | 0.97 | 36 | 39 | 87% | 1.12 | 50% | 1.03
Scott Niedermayer | 1992 | 2010 | 1263 | 39% | 1.25 | 1.22 | 31 | 26 | 64% | 1.04 | 40% | 0.94


Prime Stats
Player | Start | End | GP | EV% | R-ON | R-OFF | $ESP | PPP | PP% | TmPP+ | SH% | TmSH+
Serge Savard | 1970 | 1979 | 651 | 45% | 1.72 | 1.67 | 28 | 13 | 34% | 1.33 | 65% | 0.76
Guy Lapointe | 1973 | 1979 | 499 | 46% | 1.67 | 1.88 | 40 | 34 | 75% | 1.32 | 68% | 0.74
Borje Salming | 1976 | 1982 | 527 | 46% | 1.26 | 0.83 | 41 | 32 | 81% | 1.07 | 58% | 1.04
Mark Howe | 1980 | 1988 | 654 | 42% | 1.47 | 0.94 | 39 | 22 | 64% | 0.96 | 44% | 0.86
Rod Langway | 1981 | 1989 | 673 | 38% | 1.35 | 1.21 | 22 | 4 | 14% | 0.99 | 57% | 0.85
Brian Leetch | 1989 | 1997 | 632 | 45% | 1.20 | 1.06 | 40 | 41 | 91% | 1.18 | 51% | 0.95
Scott Niedermayer | 2004 | 2007 | 242 | 39% | 1.27 | 1.22 | 37 | 33 | 79% | 1.13 | 47% | 0.90

Stats Glossary
EV%: The percentage of the team’s even-strength goals the player was on the ice for, on a per-game basis.

R-ON: The team’s GF/GA ratio while the player is on the ice at even strength.

R-OFF: The team’s GF/GA ratio while the player is off the ice at even strength.

$ESP/S: Even strength points per season, adjusted to a 200 ESG per team-season scoring level.

$PPP/S: Power play points per season, adjusted to a 70 PPG per team-season scoring level and a league-average number of power play opportunities.

PP%: The percentage of the team’s power play goals for which the player was on the ice.

TmPP+: The strength of the player’s team on the power play. 1.00 is average, higher is better.

SH%: The percentage of the team’s power play goals against for which the player was on the ice.

TmSH+: The strength of the player’s team on the penalty kill. 1.00 is average, lower is better.


What does it all mean?
Recycled comments on returning players, modified Leetch's a bit.

A note on the team-based stats - the lack of parity in the 1970s NHL made it easier to put up high numbers in these stats.

Serge Savard is an interesting contrast with Borje Salming, in terms of team situation. Really, it's very difficult to compare them based on these numbers. Savard played on a dominant, all-time great team, and Salming played on probably the weakest teams of any candidate yet.

At even strength, Savard played big minutes and played the toughest defensive assignments. His team had outstanding results whether he was on or off the ice. He had a minor role on the power play, usually on the second unit (he was never on the ice for as many as half of his team's power play goals.) He was a great penalty killer, playing a major role on a great Montreal unit.

Guy Lapointe was a major contributor in all situations to a great Montreal team. He's the first defenceman available who's team was better with him off the ice than on the ice at even strength, but that's partly because he was on the second pairing behind Savard and Robinson for much of his prime. On the power play and penalty kill, he was second to nobody on Montreal, playing a major role on both units. His prime was relatively short, at least when measured in regular season games.

Borje Salming played on a weak team, but had excellent plus-minus numbers relative to his team. I wonder to what degree he and Ian Turnbull played the tough assignments, or if they were in more of an offensive role. Salming played a lot of minutes in all situations during his prime. His team results were below-average on both special teams, but it's hard to penalize him too much for that.

Savard and Salming's numbers both dropped off around 1980. This is more understandable for Savard, as he was 33 years old, had played a lot of playoff games, and had major knee injuries during his career. What about Salming? Other posters here have suggested it was an accumulation of injuries, which is very possible. Salming ended up playing until the age of 38, which was unusual at the time and is to his credit.

Note on Salming's prime years: I left out 1974 and 1975 because he played fewer minutes in those seasons (EV% of 39%, PP% of 46%, SH% of 57%.) But he was voted a second-team all-star in 1975, and was +38 in 1974, so you might choose to include those seasons in his prime.

Mark Howe had extremely good plus-minus numbers at even strength right from the start to the end of his NHL career. His best results came while paired with Brad McCrimmon from 84/85 to 86/87. I'm not sure to what degree he was used in an offensive/defensive role, which would have implications for his plus-minus, but his record of +400 in the regular season and +54 in the playoffs is very impressive.

He played on both the power play and the penalty kill, but not huge minutes on either one. It's a little puzzling to me why he didn't play more on the power play, given his offensive skills. Was it because he relied on a wrist shot instead of a slap shot? Because his coaches (Keenan and others) preferred to spread the minutes around?

Rod Langway was a pure defensive defenceman. Rarely played on the power play, played huge minutes on the penalty kill.

His even-strength plus-minus record is a good illustration of the effect role and strength of opposition can play in plus-minus, IMO. His last two seasons in Montreal playing second pairing behind Robinson, he was +53 and +66. In his first two seasons in Washington as the top shutdown option, he was even and +14 - and won the Norris trophy both seasons.

Washington's power play goals against in the two seasons before Langway - 83, 67.
Washington's power play goals against in Langway's first two seasons - 53, 39.

It's hard to match the impact of the other defenceman here as a pure defensive defenceman. But if anyone could, it was Langway.

Brian Leetch was the best offensive defenceman available for voting (by a lot, at this point.) His plus-minus numbers weren't particularly good especially in the second half of his career. In his defence, he was probably asked to do more than he should have in New York, playing huge minutes in all situations without a lot of help on the back end. He's one of the group of players you could make a case for as the second best defenceman on the PP in history (behind Orr). Played big minutes on the penalty kill, with poor team results. Again, probably a case of being pushed into a bigger role than he was suited for, in my opinion. He entered an NHL that was a good fit for his game, but the Eastern conference in the dead puck era was a tough fit for an offensive defenceman.

Scott Niedermayer spent most of his career as a second pairing defenceman on an excellent team, and finally became an elite defenceman in his 30s. An all-around contributor. He wasn't elite on the PP or the PK - for much of his career in New Jersey he played on the second unit for both. At even strength, he carried the offence for the second pairing against second-tier matchups in New Jersey. In Anaheim he was paired with a strong defender on the top pairing and played the toughest matchups.

His prime was hard to isolate, as he didn't really step forward until after Scott Stevens retired, and then wasn't really the same after he took half a year off in 2007. I listed his 03/04 through 06/07 seasons as his prime, as they were an easily identified high point in his career.
 

Hardyvan123

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To be honest... For that era -- especially Quackenbush and Stewart --, they certainly don't look bad for their longevity.

Langway? Well... there's a reason why Robinson's longevity is more impressive that it looks at first.

Lapointe? The guy played longer seasons than everyone. It's somewhat "excusable", but it does somewhat look bad compared with Savard.

While I don't think either guy will be in my top 5 this round, for various reasons, longevity isn't really one of them. They had pretty good longevity for the era.
 

Hardyvan123

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Nothing here challenges anything in my post. I never said he was the only reason, just that he got a lot of credit for his great play. 18 yr Scott Stevens was not a difference maker at the time, and Murray was there most of the year previous too.

Langway was great defensively, his team improved dramatically, and he was the best defenseman according to the contemporary voters.

Like I said, I question the wins too, but there is obviously a pretty good case to be made for him winning them as well. Especially the first one, I think.

Stevens wasn't as good as Langway at 18 or 19 but he was still extremely good in those two years given his age. Maybe not a "difference maker" in the true sense of the term but his presence certainly was a positive one for those Capital teams.
 

Hardyvan123

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Does anyone view Langway as better than Savard? I definitely have Savard a clear, but not huge, level above.

I do.

Not sure how many here got to see Langway play.

He was a defensive force.

And the 2 years before going to Washington, his numbers in Montreal were:

80 11-34-45 +53

66 5-34-39 +66

In terms of what each individually accomplished I think Langway wins out.

I think from some of the posts about Savard that some are giving him "credit" for being injured but they can correct me if I'm wrong in that.

Savard does have that Conn Smythe and quite the edge in playoff play but he also had quite the supporting cast and was he ever the top guy for Montreal besides that one magical playoff season?

No answers here but stuff to weigh forsure.
 

overpass

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E.M. Swift, Sports Illustrated, October 10, 1983:

Langway had risen to award-winning status in just one stunning season. On Sept. 10, 1982 Langway, Defenseman Brian Engblom and forwards Doug Jarvis and Craig Laughlin had been traded from the Montreal Canadiens to the Washington Capitals. In Montreal, Langway had been merely "promising"; in Washington he delivered.

Once Langway and his confreres came aboard, the Capitals became the NHL's most improved team, boosting their record from 26-41-13 in 1981-82 to 39-25-16 last season. Furthermore, Washington became the fifth-best defensive team in the league, allowing 55 fewer goals than it had the previous season, and made the playoffs for the first time in its nine-year history. With Langway aboard, and playing leader to young defensemen Scott Stevens, 19, who arguably contributed more to his team than any other NHL rookie a year ago, and Peter Andersson, 21, a Swedish import, who unfortunately will miss the first eight to 10 weeks of his rookie season because of a torn ligament in his left knee suffered in a preseason game, the Caps have laid the foundation for a legitimate, if uphill, run at the Stanley Cup.

Langway is not a flashy talent. He doesn't anchor Washington's power play or make electrifying end-to-end rushes in the manner of most recent Norris Trophy winners like Chicago's Doug Wilson, Robinson, the Islander's Denis Potvin or, of course, Orr. Rather, Langway is a fundamentally superb defenseman who expends nearly all his energy stopping the other team from scoring. The 32 points he tallied last season for the Capitals represented the lowest total for a Norris winner since Montreal's Jacques Laperriere, another tall, rangy, stylish defenseman, scored but 31 in 1965-66. Langway is a throwback to that pre-Orr era.

"He recognizes what he does best," says Murray. "He doesn't gamble. He plays very safe. He'll go back and make the pass to the same winger time after time if the guy's open, and he's so strong that even when he's being leaned on he can get the puck to his man. He never gets in trouble in his own end."

Says Poile: "It wasn't the Montreal 'tradition' at work. It was Rod Langway. How can you not win when your best players are also your hardest workers? The other guys see that and wonder, 'How can we not try?' "

The narrative for Langway's first Norris win is laid out pretty clearly in the above quote.

Interestingly, Langway himself didn't entirely agree with it.

Red Fisher, Montreal Gazette, June 8, 1983:
Washington Capitals' defenceman Rod Langway says he has played better hockey than he did this past season.

He also swears (well, almost) that if he had a vote for the Norris Trophy (the National Hockey League's most outstanding defenceman) it would have gone to his former teammate, Larry Robinson.

"I'm surprised, I really am," insisted Langway, who edged Philadelphia's Mark Howe for the award. "Lookit," he said, "earlier this year, my wife told me I'd be on the second all-star team, and I smiled. I would have been happy with that."

"I really felt I became a hockey player in the 1979-80 season, after Claude Ruel took over as coach from Bernie Geoffrion," said Langway. "Claude made me one of the three defencemen on the team along with Engblom and Robinson. I thought I played better that year than I did this season, but with the Canadiens, I wasn't noticed as much, I guess. Then, the fact that the Capitals improved so much this season probably brought me a lot more attention."

Of course, Langway may not be the best person to evaluate his own performance.

I also found the reaction from Montreal after the Langway trade interesting.

Red Fisher:
All-star Brian Engblom and Rod Langway - generally regarded as the best defensive pair in the National Hockey League - have gone to the Washington Capitals in a major, six-player trade.

Engblom made the second all-star team last season in only his fourth complete season with the team, based largely on his superior defensive ability.
What was Irving thinking about when he agreed to relinquish Engblom, who has been the best Canadiens' defenceman during the last two seasons...by far?

He was an all-star last season, and deservedly so. He wasn't the year before, and deserved to be.

Michel Crete, tavern waiter:
"As for the trades, well...they shouldn't have sent Engblom. He was the best defenceman in the league the last two years. It doesn't matter about Langway, he was causing trouble about the tax situation."

The fan's reaction is telling - they were reconciled to losing Langway, but were surprised and dismayed at losing Engblom as well. Even so, it appears that Engblom was considered the better of the two while they were in Montreal.

Some more quotes from SI on Langway.

1985 playoffs vs Philadelphia Flyers:
"How do you stop Kerr?" Washington coach Bryan Murray was asked before the game.

"We don't," said Murray... "You can't outphysical him," said the Washington defenseman Rod Langway.
The turning point in the game and probably in the series—possibly even in the season—came midway through the second period, when Philadelphia got Langway off the ice. In the old days, the Broad Street Bullies would have a couple of thugs beat on the opposition's best players—Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito, Rod Gilbert, Gilbert Perreault—and provoke them into fights and other retaliatory tactics. Three thugs for one Orr, say, was an advantageous swap for the Bullies. Now it was Langway whom Philly wanted to neutralize.

"They kept yelling on the bench, 'Get Langway. Get Langway,' " said Murray the next day. And they did get him. Langway suffered one indignity after another, and when Carson tried to spear him, he finally retaliated. He won the fight (with three solid rights to the head and a takedown), but it pretty much cost Washington the game. Carson and Langway drew five minutes apiece for fighting, but Carson was no real loss to Philly. On the other hand, while the NHL's two-time Norris Trophy winner languished in the penalty box, Washington gave up two goals to Poulin.

Rendez-vous 87:
But it was the penalty killers who were the real heroes, particularly the twin towers of Langway and Green. Four times they beat the Soviet power play, which passed crisply around the perimeter of the slot but was unable to penetrate and create scoring chances. "The guys who had no speed came through," said an exhausted Langway. "We couldn't keep up with them, but we knew where they were going. I didn't realize we could play so well defensively."

1988 playoffs vs Philadelphia Flyers:
Now the Caps can't get out. In eight seasons in the Patrick, the Caps have never survived the division playoffs. Bryan Murray became the coach in 1981, and since 1982, Washington has consistently been one of the best regular-season teams in the league. "Which means nothing if you have no success in the playoffs," admits defenseman Larry Murphy. Each spring the cherry trees burst into blossom, and each spring the Caps fold.

The Caps don't get breaks. No, the Caps break hearts. On April 20, 1987, the New York Islanders beat Washington in the fourth sudden-death overtime period—after two hours and eight minutes of hockey, at 1:58 a.m.—of the seventh and deciding game of the first round. To fully appreciate what a vintage Caps performance it was, one must note that they had led the Isles three games to one in that series. In their sordid playoff history the Caps have twice blown multigame leads.
And with just 53 seconds to play and Flyers goalie Mark LaForest on the bench, Kjell Samuelsson—Ichabod Crane on blades—materialized on the edge of a goalmouth scramble to poke the game-tying goal through Malarchuk's pads.

If Scott Stevens (bruised right shoulder) and/or Rod Langway (charley horse), the Capitals' two best defense-men—indeed, the Capitals' two best players—had been on the ice, Samuels-son would not have been standing there to score that goal. Rather, he would have been on his ponderous duff, looking about to see what had hit him.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
5,271
2,808
I was born during one of Rod Langway's Norris Trophy winning seasons, so I'm not entirely qualified to say he wasn't the best defenceman in the league. But from where I'm sitting, I think his Norris trophies are most similar to a couple of basketball awards - Steve Nash's MVP's in 2005 and 2006.

For the first award, both Langway and Nash arrived on their new team and led an instant, dramatic, very visible turnaround. Both were arguably the best in the league on one side of the game (defence for Langway, offence for Nash) while being below-average on the other side.

For the second award, both Langway and Nash arguably played even better in the following season. And the team overcame adversity to finish strongly again. (Langway's Caps started 0-7 before streaking to an improved 101 points. Nash's Suns lost Joe Johnson to trade and Amare Stoudemire to injury and still won 2/3 of their games.) If Langway and Nash improved their performance over an award-winning season, how could they lose the award in the following year?

IMO, neither Langway nor Nash were the best options for the award, because they were one-dimensional players and weren't quite as valuable as some players who were great at both ends. They were great players and provided a great story.

(Apologies to the participants who don't follow basketball at all. I just don't think there's any parallel in NHL history for Langway's back-to-back Norris trophies.)
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,185
14,578
long post

Great analysis as always. The biggest surprises were:

- Howe played the least amount of time on the penalty kill (in terms of his prime). I would have assumed that Howe played more on the PK than Niedermayer and Leetch (though in the latter's case, he likely earned a lot of PK ice time in order to generated shorthanded offense, and also because the Rangers generally lacked depth).

- the Canadiens fared better at even-strength when Lapointe was off the ice. As you mentioned, this is likely due to Lapointe generally being on the second pairing. Instead of being implicitly compared primarily to depth players like most of the other blueliners, Lapointe is effectively being compared against Lafleur, Robinson, Lemaire, etc. Thus, I wouldn't use the on/off statistic as an argument against Lapointe due to his unique circumstances.

- I was surprised to see that Lapointe was used more on the penalty kill than Savard (who generally has the reputation of being better defensively). What do others think?

- Langway is arguably the best defensive player in the tables above, but I'm surprised by how far behind he is everyone else offensively. Looking at the "prime" table, Langway scored only 22 even-strength points per season (Savard scored 28, and everyone else scored 37+). Langway barely played on the powerplay and contributed virtually nothing (4 points); everyone aside from Savard scored at least 22 points. Even if we assume that Langway is the best defensive player list in Overpass's table, I'm not sure if he should rank in the top five this round. What do others think?

- Salming looks incredibly strong based on these numbers (looking at prime, he's the only person in the top three in both PP and PK usage). His goals on/off ratio is 1.52 (prime), which puts him miles ahead of everyone except Howe. However, some (a lot?) of this is due to Salming being a great player on a team that often lacked depth, thus his off-ice comparables are quite poor (basically, this is the opposite of Lapointe's situation).
 

Pear Juice

Registered User
Dec 12, 2007
807
6
Gothenburg, SWE
Since Vasiliev is up this round and has his peak in this time period I wonder where he might slot on these 3 teams from year to year?

I fully understand that he was the best Dman in Russia during this time period but exactly how would his game have translated to the NHL, would it have been any better than Savard for instance?

Most of our exposure to him in through limited international competition and not always with the best on best competition and their is always the question of how the "system" might be greater than the sum of the parts.

I'm really not sure where to slot him but am doubtful that he is going to make my top 5 this round.
The sum is always greater than the parts. It's supposed to be, and if it isn't, the coach is at fault. Either for not assembling a working group of players or for not inspiring them enough to utilize each other's strengths. For some reason this is always suggested when discussing Soviet players because they "played so much together". It's a great thing that they played much together, most of them have an individual trophy case as well. It's not a matter of just simply counting team achievements.

Oh and in the case of Vasiliev, he only played with the rest of the Soviet stars on the national team. In the Soviet league, Vasiliev didn't play for the army team CSKA, he played for Dynamo (Maltsev did aswell), another of the Moscow clubs. During Vasiliev's time there they didn't win a single championship (it was virtually impossible due to CSKA's dominance and army connections). Despite this he was an all-star every year from 1973-1979 + 1981.
 

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