My mistake those damn rookie team awards.
Many of the 2nd team all stars over time are "stat" awards as well.
He will be a divisive guy this round no doubt.
Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Defensemen)
- Thread starter TheDevilMadeMe
- Start date
My mistake those damn rookie team awards.
Many of the 2nd team all stars over time are "stat" awards as well.
He will be a divisive guy this round no doubt.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Non-NHL accomplishments
Rod Langway
Rod Langway
- Canada Cup All Star (1984)
- Olympics All Star (2002)
- WC All Star (1973)
- Canada Cup All Star (1976)
- Second Defenseman on the IIHF Centennial Team
- Joined the NHL before the 1973-74 season
- 1st Team Soviet All Star (1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1981))
- IIHF Best Defenseman (1973, 1977, 1979)
- WC All Star (1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981)
- Long term captain of the Soviet National Team
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Since the new candidates aren't all household going to be names to readers from now on, here are some minibios. Anyone can feel free to disagree with what I wrote.
Mark Howe - Great skating and physical strength allowed him to dominate at even strength - though his stay at home partner, Brad McCrimmon, definitely helped The best player on one of the best teams in the league in the 1980s. Lost in the finals twice to the Edmonton dynasty. No Norrises, but 3 second place finishes. His biggest weakness is that injuries prevented him from stringing together multiple elite seasons. LOH = "One of the most versatile players in history, Howe was a scoring sensation early in his career and regarded as one of the best two-way defenders ever toward the end."
Rod Langway - One of the best defensive defensemen ever. Two Norrises and excellent Hart record, but there is speculation that he got a lot of votes as a reaction by traditionalists who wanted to vote for an old-time defenseman in an era of offensive defensemen. Lack of playoff success pushes him behind Scott Stevens. LOH= "Known in Washington as the "Franchise Saver", Langway was always willing to sacrifice his body for the club, never giving less than his best effort and expecting nothing less from those around him."
Guy Lapointe - The most offensively inclined of Montreal's "Big 3," Lapointe quarterbacked Montreal's excellent powerplay and had a big role on the penalty kill, while taking a slightly lesser role at even strength than Larry Robinson or Serge Savard. As a young player, he partnered with Savard in the 72 Summit Series (before Robinson came of age) and the pair showed hints of future dominance. Unlike Savard, his number is not retired by Montreal. LOH= "Lapointe quickly established himself as one of the game's all-time great defensemen. He was a solid checker and opposing goalies feared his slapshot, which was particularly effective on the Habs' lethal powerplay of the '70s."
Scott Niedermayer - 2 Cups and 3 finals in New Jersey as a very solid support player in the shadow of Scott Stevens. Considering an enigma for much of his time in New Jersey, Niedermayer had obvious talent but wasn't always the second best defenseman in New Jersey. He did tend to raise his game in big games, though. When Scott Stevens briefly went out with a concussion in the 2003 playoffs, Niedermayer put it all together. A short but dominant peak - 1 Norris and 3 First Team All Stars in 3 seasons bookended by 2 more Cups (for 4 total), both with Smythe-worthy performances. Would he have had a fourth elite season if it weren't for the lockout? LOH = "A four-time Stanley Cup winner in 1995, 2000, 2003, and 2007 Niedermayer is a strong puck carrying defenceman who is one of the league's best skaters and is blessed with outstanding speed and offensive instincts."
Bill Quackenbush - Arguably the best defenseman of the late 1940s, Quackenbush played a style similar to Nicklas Lidstrom - near-perfect positional defense without relying on physical play, a rarity for defensemen at the time. Despite playing excellent defense, Quack once went 131 consecutive games without recording a penalty, becoming the first defenseman in history to win the Lady Byng award. Credited with teaching Red Kelly (the only other defenseman to win the Lady Byng) how to play defense. He was also one of the best offensive defensemen of the era, but it was an extremely weak era for offensive defensemen. Lack of playoff success might be a concern. LOH = "He was among the NHL's elite rushing blueliners. More significantly, he was a superior defender in his own end who relied on positioning and discipline rather than physical intimidation for his success."
Jack Stewart - Arguably the best defenseman of the late 1940s, "Black" Jack Stewart played a physical style similar to Scott Stevens. He reportedly hated his nickname because he preferred to be thought of as a hard but clean bodychecker, rather than a thug. Two Cups, but usually ranked behind Stevens because was never the most important player on his team and didn't have quite the longevity. LOH = "A devastating hitter, Stewart was at his best in the hardest-fought games."
Mark Howe - Great skating and physical strength allowed him to dominate at even strength - though his stay at home partner, Brad McCrimmon, definitely helped The best player on one of the best teams in the league in the 1980s. Lost in the finals twice to the Edmonton dynasty. No Norrises, but 3 second place finishes. His biggest weakness is that injuries prevented him from stringing together multiple elite seasons. LOH = "One of the most versatile players in history, Howe was a scoring sensation early in his career and regarded as one of the best two-way defenders ever toward the end."
Rod Langway - One of the best defensive defensemen ever. Two Norrises and excellent Hart record, but there is speculation that he got a lot of votes as a reaction by traditionalists who wanted to vote for an old-time defenseman in an era of offensive defensemen. Lack of playoff success pushes him behind Scott Stevens. LOH= "Known in Washington as the "Franchise Saver", Langway was always willing to sacrifice his body for the club, never giving less than his best effort and expecting nothing less from those around him."
Guy Lapointe - The most offensively inclined of Montreal's "Big 3," Lapointe quarterbacked Montreal's excellent powerplay and had a big role on the penalty kill, while taking a slightly lesser role at even strength than Larry Robinson or Serge Savard. As a young player, he partnered with Savard in the 72 Summit Series (before Robinson came of age) and the pair showed hints of future dominance. Unlike Savard, his number is not retired by Montreal. LOH= "Lapointe quickly established himself as one of the game's all-time great defensemen. He was a solid checker and opposing goalies feared his slapshot, which was particularly effective on the Habs' lethal powerplay of the '70s."
Scott Niedermayer - 2 Cups and 3 finals in New Jersey as a very solid support player in the shadow of Scott Stevens. Considering an enigma for much of his time in New Jersey, Niedermayer had obvious talent but wasn't always the second best defenseman in New Jersey. He did tend to raise his game in big games, though. When Scott Stevens briefly went out with a concussion in the 2003 playoffs, Niedermayer put it all together. A short but dominant peak - 1 Norris and 3 First Team All Stars in 3 seasons bookended by 2 more Cups (for 4 total), both with Smythe-worthy performances. Would he have had a fourth elite season if it weren't for the lockout? LOH = "A four-time Stanley Cup winner in 1995, 2000, 2003, and 2007 Niedermayer is a strong puck carrying defenceman who is one of the league's best skaters and is blessed with outstanding speed and offensive instincts."
Bill Quackenbush - Arguably the best defenseman of the late 1940s, Quackenbush played a style similar to Nicklas Lidstrom - near-perfect positional defense without relying on physical play, a rarity for defensemen at the time. Despite playing excellent defense, Quack once went 131 consecutive games without recording a penalty, becoming the first defenseman in history to win the Lady Byng award. Credited with teaching Red Kelly (the only other defenseman to win the Lady Byng) how to play defense. He was also one of the best offensive defensemen of the era, but it was an extremely weak era for offensive defensemen. Lack of playoff success might be a concern. LOH = "He was among the NHL's elite rushing blueliners. More significantly, he was a superior defender in his own end who relied on positioning and discipline rather than physical intimidation for his success."
Jack Stewart - Arguably the best defenseman of the late 1940s, "Black" Jack Stewart played a physical style similar to Scott Stevens. He reportedly hated his nickname because he preferred to be thought of as a hard but clean bodychecker, rather than a thug. Two Cups, but usually ranked behind Stevens because was never the most important player on his team and didn't have quite the longevity. LOH = "A devastating hitter, Stewart was at his best in the hardest-fought games."
Pear Juice
Registered User
I'd like to add that Börje also was a SEL 1st team all star in 1973 and won the Le Mat Trophy (Swedish Championship) with Brynäs IF in 1971 and 1972.
overpass
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- Jun 7, 2007
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Mark Howe is another forward/defence player that we have to consider.
He was a left winger in junior and for seven seasons in the WHA, although I believe he played a few games at defence to fill in for injuries at some point. in his first NHL season in Hartford at age 24, Howe played the first three games at LW as usual. Before his team's fourth game, he saw the lineup posted, with his name at defence. Thinking it was a mistake, he crossed out his name, but he soon found that he was being moved to the blue line. His coach thought Mark could have more impact there, as the best skater on the team.
According to Howe, nobody taught him how to play defence until he was traded to Philadelphia at age 27, where Ed van Impe taught him a lot. It may not be a coincidence that Howe was finally recognized as one of the best players in the world in Philadelphia, as he became the anchor of the excellent Flyers teams of the 1980s.
Howe's case is more similar to Red Kelly's than Dit Clapper's, as his peak and the majority of his career came on the blue line. Unlike Kelly and Clapper, he was a forward who was converted to defence. In the end, 15 of his 22 pro seasons were played at defence, including his best seasons, so he shouldn't be too hard to evaluate for this project.
(source for the details of Howe's position switching was a CBC interview broadcast before his Hall of Fame induction.)
He was a left winger in junior and for seven seasons in the WHA, although I believe he played a few games at defence to fill in for injuries at some point. in his first NHL season in Hartford at age 24, Howe played the first three games at LW as usual. Before his team's fourth game, he saw the lineup posted, with his name at defence. Thinking it was a mistake, he crossed out his name, but he soon found that he was being moved to the blue line. His coach thought Mark could have more impact there, as the best skater on the team.
According to Howe, nobody taught him how to play defence until he was traded to Philadelphia at age 27, where Ed van Impe taught him a lot. It may not be a coincidence that Howe was finally recognized as one of the best players in the world in Philadelphia, as he became the anchor of the excellent Flyers teams of the 1980s.
Howe's case is more similar to Red Kelly's than Dit Clapper's, as his peak and the majority of his career came on the blue line. Unlike Kelly and Clapper, he was a forward who was converted to defence. In the end, 15 of his 22 pro seasons were played at defence, including his best seasons, so he shouldn't be too hard to evaluate for this project.
(source for the details of Howe's position switching was a CBC interview broadcast before his Hall of Fame induction.)
tony d
New poll series coming from me on June 3
It'll be interesting where Langway ranks. Most people consider him one of the best pure defensive defenseman of all-time. His offensive numbers are a bit meh but the guy was a great defensive guy.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Personally, I think he's extremely over-rated. Neither of his Norris Trophies were truly deserved - not even close.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
NHL All Star Teams 1937-38 to 1965-66
1937-38 was Clapper's first year on D in the NHL, 1965-66 was Gadsby's last season.
The top 4 are in order of All-Star votes, though keep in mind that LD and RD were split until 1942-43.
Year|1st|1st|2nd|2nd
1937-38|Eddie Shore|Babe Siebert|Art Coulter|Earl Seibert
1938-39|Eddie Shore| Dit Clapper |Earl Seibert|Art Coulter
1939-40| Dit Clapper |Ebbie Goodfellow|Art Coulter|Earl Seibert
1940-41| Dit Clapper |Wally Stanowski|Earl Seibert|Ott Heller
1941-42|Earl Seibert|Tommy Anderson|Pat Egan|Bucko McDonald
1942-43| Jack Stewart |Earl Seibert|Jack Crawford|Bill Hollett
1943-44 |Babe Pratt|Earl Seibert|Emile Bouchard| Dit Clapper 1944-45 |Emile Bouchard|Bill Hollett|Babe Pratt|Glen Harmon
1945-46|Jack Crawford|Emile Bouchard|Kenny Reardon| Jack Stewart
1946-47|Kenny Reardon|Emile Bouchard| Jack Stewart | Bill Quackenbush
1947-48| Bill Quackenbush | Jack Stewart |Kenny Reardon|Neil Colville
1948-49| Bill Quackenbush | Jack Stewart |Glen Harmon|Kenny Reardon
1949-50|Gus Mortson|Kenny Reardon|Leo Reise|Red Kelly
1950-51|Red Kelly| Bill Quackenbush |Jimmy Thomson|Leo Reise
1951-52|Red Kelly|Doug Harvey|Hy Buller|Jimmy Thomson
1952-53|Red Kelly|Doug Harvey| Bill Quackenbush | Bill Gadsby
1953-54|Red Kelly|Doug Harvey| Bill Gadsby |Tom Horton
1954-55|Doug Harvey|Red Kelly|Bob Goldham|Fern Flaman
1955-56|Doug Harvey| Bill Gadsby |Red Kelly|Tom Johnson
1956-57|Doug Harvey|Red Kelly|Fern Flaman| Bill Gadsby
1957-58|Doug Harvey| Bill Gadsby |Fern Flaman|Marcel Pronovost
1958-59|Tom Johnson| Bill Gadsby |Marcel Pronovost|Doug Harvey
1959-60|Doug Harvey|Marcel Pronovost|Allan Stanley|Pierre Pilote
1960-61|Doug Harvey|Marcel Pronovost|Allan Stanley|Pierre Pilote
1961-62|Doug Harvey|Jean Guy Talbot|Carl Brewer|Pierre Pilote
1962-63|Pierre Pilote|Carl Brewer|Tim Horton|Elmer Vasko
1963-64|Pierre Pilote|Tim Horton|Elmer Vasko|Jacques Laperriere
1964-65|Pierre Pilote|Jacques Laperriere| Bill Gadsby |Carl Brewer
1965-66|Jacques Laperriere|Pierre Pilote|Allan Stanley|Pat Stapleton
1937-38 was Clapper's first year on D in the NHL, 1965-66 was Gadsby's last season.
The top 4 are in order of All-Star votes, though keep in mind that LD and RD were split until 1942-43.
- Clapper played from 1927-28 to 1946-47 and was D from 1937-38 to 1946-47
- Stewart played from 1938-39 to 1942-43, left for WW2, then played from 1945-46 to 1951-52
- Quackenbush played from 1942-43 to 1955-56
- Gadsby played from 1946-47 to 1965-66
1937-38|Eddie Shore|Babe Siebert|Art Coulter|Earl Seibert
1938-39|Eddie Shore| Dit Clapper |Earl Seibert|Art Coulter
1939-40| Dit Clapper |Ebbie Goodfellow|Art Coulter|Earl Seibert
1940-41| Dit Clapper |Wally Stanowski|Earl Seibert|Ott Heller
1941-42|Earl Seibert|Tommy Anderson|Pat Egan|Bucko McDonald
1942-43| Jack Stewart |Earl Seibert|Jack Crawford|Bill Hollett
1943-44 |Babe Pratt|Earl Seibert|Emile Bouchard| Dit Clapper 1944-45 |Emile Bouchard|Bill Hollett|Babe Pratt|Glen Harmon
1945-46|Jack Crawford|Emile Bouchard|Kenny Reardon| Jack Stewart
1946-47|Kenny Reardon|Emile Bouchard| Jack Stewart | Bill Quackenbush
1947-48| Bill Quackenbush | Jack Stewart |Kenny Reardon|Neil Colville
1948-49| Bill Quackenbush | Jack Stewart |Glen Harmon|Kenny Reardon
1949-50|Gus Mortson|Kenny Reardon|Leo Reise|Red Kelly
1950-51|Red Kelly| Bill Quackenbush |Jimmy Thomson|Leo Reise
1951-52|Red Kelly|Doug Harvey|Hy Buller|Jimmy Thomson
1952-53|Red Kelly|Doug Harvey| Bill Quackenbush | Bill Gadsby
1953-54|Red Kelly|Doug Harvey| Bill Gadsby |Tom Horton
1954-55|Doug Harvey|Red Kelly|Bob Goldham|Fern Flaman
1955-56|Doug Harvey| Bill Gadsby |Red Kelly|Tom Johnson
1956-57|Doug Harvey|Red Kelly|Fern Flaman| Bill Gadsby
1957-58|Doug Harvey| Bill Gadsby |Fern Flaman|Marcel Pronovost
1958-59|Tom Johnson| Bill Gadsby |Marcel Pronovost|Doug Harvey
1959-60|Doug Harvey|Marcel Pronovost|Allan Stanley|Pierre Pilote
1960-61|Doug Harvey|Marcel Pronovost|Allan Stanley|Pierre Pilote
1961-62|Doug Harvey|Jean Guy Talbot|Carl Brewer|Pierre Pilote
1962-63|Pierre Pilote|Carl Brewer|Tim Horton|Elmer Vasko
1963-64|Pierre Pilote|Tim Horton|Elmer Vasko|Jacques Laperriere
1964-65|Pierre Pilote|Jacques Laperriere| Bill Gadsby |Carl Brewer
1965-66|Jacques Laperriere|Pierre Pilote|Allan Stanley|Pat Stapleton
- From this table (including the competition), I would say that Gadsby's All-Star record is stronger than Quackenbush's, and Quackenbush's is a bit stronger than Stewart's.
- Stewart did lose 2 potentially prime years (1943-44 and 1944-45) to the War.
- Keep in mind that the above table doesn't include playoffs. Clapper won the Cup in 1939 and 1941. Stewart won the Cup in 1943 and 1950. Quackenbush and Gadsby never won the Cup, though both reached the finals more than once.
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JaysCyYoung
Registered User
Just a note, TDMM: the second Second Team All-Star defenceman in 1965-66 was Pat Stapleton, not Bob Baun.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
You're right. I thought I remembered Baun as having no All-star nods, but was just copying the AS teams from wikipedia, which in the past has been accurate and is an easy to read/copy format. Only fact-checked on hfboards for the seasons involving guys up this round.
Looks like some Leafs homer decided to "give" Baun a 2nd Team nod on wikipedia for some reason. I edited it back to Stapleton.
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
Haha, no worries. I actually got a chuckle just now as I was about to edit the article myself and saw it was altered back (presumably by one of our HFBoards friends).
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
Keep in mind that Langway's Norrises were as much of a recognition of the credibility that he brought to an unheralded Washington franchise as they were a reflection of his dominant brand of physical, defence-first play from the blue-line. Prior to his arrival the Capitals were a dysfunctional franchise with little direction and no high-profile marquee talents that granted them any semblance of authority around the league. Acquiring Langway immediately changed that. They made the post-season for the very first time in team history after missing the dance the previous eight seasons, and they would make it annually after that. He provided the team with an identity and a style, which proved instrumental in making the post-season in eleven consecutive seasons from the time he joined the Caps until his retirement following the 1992-93 campaign, and Washington instantly became a difficult opponent to play against.
I'm in agreement with you that the Norris Trophies were probably undeserved given how excellent Mark Howe was in 1982-83 (67 points and a +47 rating in his first full season on defence after his conversation from LW) and Bourque's remarkable 1983-84 season (96 points and a +51 rating for a Bruins division title champion). However, as others have already noted and I'm sure you're familiar with, there was a push-back around this period in league history, as scoring steadily increased, by traditionalists who wanted to advocate for a defenceman who represented all of the attributes associated with the traditional, hard-nosed defence-first style of play embodied by the great defenders of the past. Even an offensively-proficient all-time great like Doug Harvey was recognized as prioritizing play in his own end above all other considerations, and in supreme defensive positioning. Langway embodied those attributes to near perfection during a period in NHL history when it seemed like offence was the only attribute worth praising. That's obviously not Langway's fault; it does not detract from his accomplishments to point out the reactionary voting that occurred at the time.
Langway should probably wait another round though all-things considered. His Norris record is very good, but he had only three other top five finishes following his 1983 and 1984 victories and his peak was extremely short. Compared to another name on the list who has been critiqued for that, Brian Leetch, I think that it's clear that Langway falls short. In comparison to other defence-first defenders on the list, I think that it's also clear that Valeri Vasiliev, with his record number of 617 Soviet League games, stellar reputation for his performance against North American opponents in Soviet-NHL and international events, and with his three IIHF World Championships Best Defenceman accolades, outstrips Langway both in terms of both peak and overall longevity. Jack Stewart has appeared a round or two too early for my liking, similarly to Serge Savard's appearance a couple of rounds ago, and I simply cannot find any meaningful reason to rank Quackenbush in my top five just yet.
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
NHL All Star Teams 1972-73 to 1979-80
All All-Star Teams of Lapointe, Savard, and Salming were in this time period.
"Third teams" are from HO's study.
Season | 1st AST | 1st AST | 2nd AST | 2nd AST | 3rd AST | 3rd AST
1972-73 | Bobby Orr | Guy Lapointe | Brad Park | Bill White | Jacques Laperriere | Serge Savard
1973-74 | Bobby Orr | Brad Park | Barry Ashbee | Bill White | Guy Lapointe | Carol Vadnais
1974-75 | Bobby Orr | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Brad Park | Serge Savard
1975-76 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Jimmy Watson
1976-77 | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Guy Lapointe | Denis Potvin | Serge Savard | Brad Park
1977-78 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Barry Beck
1978-79 | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Barry Beck | Guy Lapointe
1979-80 | Raymond Bourque | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Jim Schoenfeld | Mark Howe | Barry Beck
Their records with "Third Teams" included:
Keep in mind the following:
All All-Star Teams of Lapointe, Savard, and Salming were in this time period.
- After a few great seasons in Sweden, Salming jumped to the NHL in 1973-74. By his second NHL season, he was considered among the league's best. He played until 1989-90 though accumulated no more All-Star teams in the 1980s.
- Lapointe played from 1970-71 to 1983-84, but really started to struggle with injuries in 1977-78.
- Savard played from 1967-68 to 1982-83.
"Third teams" are from HO's study.
1972-73 | Bobby Orr | Guy Lapointe | Brad Park | Bill White | Jacques Laperriere | Serge Savard
1973-74 | Bobby Orr | Brad Park | Barry Ashbee | Bill White | Guy Lapointe | Carol Vadnais
1974-75 | Bobby Orr | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Brad Park | Serge Savard
1975-76 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Guy Lapointe | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Jimmy Watson
1976-77 | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Guy Lapointe | Denis Potvin | Serge Savard | Brad Park
1977-78 | Brad Park | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Barry Beck
1978-79 | Denis Potvin | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Serge Savard | Barry Beck | Guy Lapointe
1979-80 | Raymond Bourque | Larry Robinson | Börje Salming | Jim Schoenfeld | Mark Howe | Barry Beck
Their records with "Third Teams" included:
- Salming: 1 x 1st, 5 x 2nd, 0 x 3rd
- Savard: 0 x 1st, 1 x 2nd, 5 x 3rd
- Lapointe: 1 x 1st, 3 x 2nd, 2 x 3rd
Keep in mind the following:
- Savard, as a defensive defenseman in the post-expansion era was likely underrated a bit by All Star Teams
- All Star Teams don't speak of playoff performances and only Savard has a Conn Smythe
- Guy Lapointe's 1st Team next to Orr in 1972-73 looks impressive at first glance, but he barely beat out Brad Park and Bill White when Park only played 52 of 78 games. Point totals were Orr 236, Lapointe 125, Park 118, White 112
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
NHL All Star Teams 1979-80 to 1986-87
All 1st, 2nd, and "3rd" All Star Teams for Rod Langway and Mark Howe included.
Again, 3rd Teams are from HO's study.
I'm repeating the 1979-80 season from the above table to take into account Mark Howe's 3rd Team.
Season | 1st AST | 1st AST | 2nd AST | 2nd AST | 3rd AST | 3rd AST
1979-80 | Larry Robinson | Ray Bourque | Borje Salming | Jim Schoenfeld | Mark Howe | Barry Beck
1980-81 | Denis Potvin | Randy Carlyle | Larry Robinson | Ray Bourque | Rod Langway | Larry Murphy
1981-82 | Doug Wilson | Ray Bourque | Paul Coffey | Brian Engblom | Craig Hartsburg | Larry Robinson
1982-83 | Mark Howe | Rod Langway | Paul Coffey | Ray Bourque | Doug Wilson | Denis Potvin
1983-84 | Rod Langway | Ray Bourque | Paul Coffey | Denis Potvin | Phil Housley | Mike Ramsay
1984-85 | Paul Coffey | Ray Bourque | Rod Langway | Doug Wilson | Scott Stevens | Mark Howe
1985-86 | Paul Coffey | Mark Howe | Larry Robinson | Ray Bourque | Rod Langway | Doug Wilson
1986-87 | Ray Bourque | Mark Howe | Larry Murphy | Al MacInnis | Larry Robinson | Ulf Samuelsson
All 1st, 2nd, and "3rd" All Star Teams for Rod Langway and Mark Howe included.
Again, 3rd Teams are from HO's study.
I'm repeating the 1979-80 season from the above table to take into account Mark Howe's 3rd Team.
- Mark Howe was an NHL defenseman from 1979-80 to 1994-95. He played in the WHA from 1973-74 to 1978-79 as a LW.
- Rod Langway was an NHL defenseman from 1978-79 to 1992-93 after 1 season in the WHA.
1979-80 | Larry Robinson | Ray Bourque | Borje Salming | Jim Schoenfeld | Mark Howe | Barry Beck
1980-81 | Denis Potvin | Randy Carlyle | Larry Robinson | Ray Bourque | Rod Langway | Larry Murphy
1981-82 | Doug Wilson | Ray Bourque | Paul Coffey | Brian Engblom | Craig Hartsburg | Larry Robinson
1982-83 | Mark Howe | Rod Langway | Paul Coffey | Ray Bourque | Doug Wilson | Denis Potvin
1983-84 | Rod Langway | Ray Bourque | Paul Coffey | Denis Potvin | Phil Housley | Mike Ramsay
1984-85 | Paul Coffey | Ray Bourque | Rod Langway | Doug Wilson | Scott Stevens | Mark Howe
1985-86 | Paul Coffey | Mark Howe | Larry Robinson | Ray Bourque | Rod Langway | Doug Wilson
1986-87 | Ray Bourque | Mark Howe | Larry Murphy | Al MacInnis | Larry Robinson | Ulf Samuelsson
- While Langway won the 82-83 Norris over Howe (180-155 points), Howe actually had more votes for the All Star Teams (262-228). Definitely a split decision.
- Langway was 1st in both Norris and All Star votes in 83-84.
- Howe was 2nd in both Norris and All Star votes in both 85-86 and 86-87
- The above table does not include playoff performances. Howe was a key player on a team that lost in the finals twice (1985, 1987) to Edmonton. Langway won a Cup as a role player in Montreal, but his Capitals are generally considered a playoff disappointment, though that is not necessarily Langway's fault.
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Canadiens1958
Registered User
Longevity
Four of the candidates were out of the NHL by the age of 35 , Quackenbush retired at age 33, Stewart and Langway at age 34, Lapointe at age 35.
Raises longevity questions.
Four of the candidates were out of the NHL by the age of 35 , Quackenbush retired at age 33, Stewart and Langway at age 34, Lapointe at age 35.
Raises longevity questions.
Dreakmur
Registered User
That doesn't change that his Norris Trophies were not deserved.
The Norris should go to the best defenseman, which Langway was never even close to being.
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
Preaching to the choir, as I outlined my agreement with you in that post.
Agreed, but there should also be contextual factors taken into consideration. When people look back on Langway's Norris Trophy wins they should be provided with an appropriate explanation of why he was so highly regarded and why he won. They look incredibly bizarre in retrospect, but the reasoning around the league by many writers and GM's was that Langway's dominant defensive performance and role in turning Washington around in 1982-83 (let's not forget that was the rookie season of future Hall of Famer Scott Stevens as well), leading them to the organization's first playoff appearance, and the credibility factor, were all reasons to vote for him.
The 1982-83 award win was probably more defensible than his win over Bourque the next season though. He was just beastly for Boston that season.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
How was Langway "not close" to being the best defenseman in the league when he won his pair of Norrises?
I realize his offense wasn't anything to write home about, but all reports (including the 1984 coaching poll) call him the best defensive defenseman in the league during this period.
Denis Potvin might have been the best overall defenseman in the league when he played, but he was too often injured by the early 80s to be a factor in the Norris voting.
I realize his offense wasn't anything to write home about, but all reports (including the 1984 coaching poll) call him the best defensive defenseman in the league during this period.
Denis Potvin might have been the best overall defenseman in the league when he played, but he was too often injured by the early 80s to be a factor in the Norris voting.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
For what it's worth, here are the complete results of the relevant categories in the 1984 coach's poll:
Best Bodychecker - Scott Stevens (Denis Potvin, Dave Langevin, Bob Nystrom, Rod Langway, Stan Smyl)
Best Defensive Defenceman - Rod Langway (Mike Ramsay, Ken Morrow)
Interesting that the 1984 coach's poll only lists "pure" defensive defensemen. Other polls list more two-way players as the best defensive defensemen - Robinson over Savard in the late 70s (with Salming placing); Bourque, Chelios, and Stevens in the early 90s.
Best Bodychecker - Scott Stevens (Denis Potvin, Dave Langevin, Bob Nystrom, Rod Langway, Stan Smyl)
Best Defensive Defenceman - Rod Langway (Mike Ramsay, Ken Morrow)
Interesting that the 1984 coach's poll only lists "pure" defensive defensemen. Other polls list more two-way players as the best defensive defensemen - Robinson over Savard in the late 70s (with Salming placing); Bourque, Chelios, and Stevens in the early 90s.
MXD
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- Oct 27, 2005
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To be honest... For that era -- especially Quackenbush and Stewart --, they certainly don't look bad for their longevity.
Langway? Well... there's a reason why Robinson's longevity is more impressive that it looks at first.
Lapointe? The guy played longer seasons than everyone. It's somewhat "excusable", but it does somewhat look bad compared with Savard.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Norris shoul go to the best overall defenseman. Langway's offense just wasn't good enough for him to bring that overall package to the table.
I think a very strong argument could be made that Langway wasn't even a top-5 defenseman in the two years he won his awards. That doesn't even count Fetisov, who was definately better in both of those years.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Langway was STUNNING! 
Watch a game from that period if you can on NHL Classic or something. I remember being in awe of him. It was obvious. If you remember Guy Carbonneau's defensive abilities you have an idea of how dominant and effective Langway was. He was the sizzle and the steak when puck carriers came into the zone. You watched for how Langway was gonna stop the guy, not whether the guy was gonna shoot on net.
I have been a Caps fan since watching Langway in 1983. He was good as a Hab before that I recall, and the Habs were my fav team so I decided to root for the Caps after being impressed by Langway there against a whole slew of Eastern clubs I couldn't care less about. There's no way a Lapointe is to be esteemed as much as him in my eyes, and Stewart too seems a step behind.
I don't think Stevens has a better peak than Langway, nor more defensive talent, but he does have a clear edge in terms of overall career, not to mention playoff success and impact on the development of the game. Vasiliev seems closer to Stevens in this regard, and I'm more and more thinking V the class of this bunch.
Watch a game from that period if you can on NHL Classic or something. I remember being in awe of him. It was obvious. If you remember Guy Carbonneau's defensive abilities you have an idea of how dominant and effective Langway was. He was the sizzle and the steak when puck carriers came into the zone. You watched for how Langway was gonna stop the guy, not whether the guy was gonna shoot on net.I have been a Caps fan since watching Langway in 1983. He was good as a Hab before that I recall, and the Habs were my fav team so I decided to root for the Caps after being impressed by Langway there against a whole slew of Eastern clubs I couldn't care less about. There's no way a Lapointe is to be esteemed as much as him in my eyes, and Stewart too seems a step behind.
I don't think Stevens has a better peak than Langway, nor more defensive talent, but he does have a clear edge in terms of overall career, not to mention playoff success and impact on the development of the game. Vasiliev seems closer to Stevens in this regard, and I'm more and more thinking V the class of this bunch.
