Round 2, Vote 13 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Canadiens1958]

Shows

That shows outcomes. It doesn't show whether or not those outcomes are caused by strategic reasons, or by quality reasons.

Outcome indicates that there are reasons to investigate further.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bobby Hull

Again, the explanation I've seen given is that the best snipers are moved to right wing, because that puts them in better position to receive passes from left-handed centers, which constitute the large majority of Canadian centers.

So basically LWs score less because they tend to be lesser talents.

What you say seems plausible as well, but again, wouldn't you want your best snipers on the right side, where they would have the best opportunity to score?

Bobby Hull was moved from center to LW as was Frank Mahovlich.

LHS on the LW, RHS on the RW tends to widen the lanes and create more open ice.Also allows the player to protect the puck from checking forwards and defensemen with his body while rushing.

LHS centers tend to favour left of center taking away space from the LW.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bobby Hull was moved from center to LW as was Frank Mahovlich.

LHS on the LW, RHS on the RW tends to widen the lanes and create more open ice.Also allows the player to protect the puck from checking forwards and defensemen with his body while rushing.

LHS centers tend to favour left of center taking away space from the LW.

I thought we were specifically talking about the post-expansion game. I should have clarified.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Outcome indicates that there are reasons to investigate further.

Isn't that exactly what we've been doing?

 

[Hardyvan123]

No. If the comparison is between forwards by position on a three line rotation and a four line rotation then the forwards on a three line rotation would have inflated ice time. So their numbers would have to be viewed accordingly.Point is understanding the impact of a three line vs a four line rotation.

Question would be how much of an impact does the 4th line have?

1959-60 Canadiens were a four line rotation team. The 4th line center, Ralph Backstrom scored 28 points:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1960.html

1959-60 Art Ross winner was Bobby Hull with 81 points.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1960.html

Other than Beliveau and Henri Richard with 74 and 73 points respectively, the remaining top scorers were all playing on three line rotation teams. Distribute Backstrom's points amongst the top three Canadiens centers and the Ross result may be different.

Remove the weak scoring 4th line(4th and below highest scoring C/RW/LW) allows you to see how effective the top three lines could be with the inflated ice time.

SV% often explains why certain goalies only played 5 instead of 25 playoff games in a given post season.

Counting stats have their place in player evaluations but everything should be included in the count. Number of lines especially.

When did Backstrom score his 28 points, Big Jean missed 10 games and Phil Goyette missed 5 as well.

We also have alot of missed games from RW's as well with only Provost playing in all 70 games.

Without more information it's just really very speculative.

 

[MadArcand]

Voted. Naslund, Imobilny & Mustache out.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Left wingers have won the fewest number, by forward position, of Art Ross Trophies since the inception of the award:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/awards/ross.html

LW also offers the shooter the worst shooting target. The vast majority of goalies catch with their right hand so the stick covers the left wing leaving a smaller opening than that faced by the RW.

Really?

Don't think that's right.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You're speaking of the Left Wing Lock, specifically used by Czechoslovakia in the 70s to counter the USSR. I know that the NHL started using a few European defensive strategies in the late 70s (spearheaded by Bowman's Canadiens, I believe) with Sather's Oilers the first team to fully utilize the European East-West offensive game.

I'm not sure how big the LWL was then - I know the media made a big deal when Bowman brought it to the Red Wings in the mid 90s, but it could have been a thing in North America before. Not sure how widespread it was by the late 70s, though.

So anyway, playing LW in the LW lock absolutely would depress a LW's point totals - I'm just skeptical whether Barber was in such a situation.

I've only seen the subject addressed in terms of Bowman adopting the LWL specifically, so I can't offer a comprehensive answer here.

But it would surprise me to find out that the NHL coaching fraternity diddled around for a whole decade while the world's most successful coaches ran LW-conservative systems. Not that they necessarily ran carbon-copies of the LWL, but as copycat as hockey coaches are, it would only make sense that they would start dropping their LWs into a more defensive role after seeing that arrangement used to win Cup after Cup. And that would, IMO, be a tidy explanation for the drop in LW scoring given that the timeframe lines up perfectly with the Habs dynasty and the aftermath of the early-70s international clashes.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Really?

Don't think that's right.

I was going to say this too.

Vokoun was something of a rarity in that he caught pucks with his right hand. Of the 710 goaltenders who have played in at least one NHL game, only 79 (11.1 percent) of them have been - to use the sport's slang - “silly siders.â€

“It's odd,†said Lightning left winger Brenden Morrow, a former Penguins teammate of Vokoun. “As a left shot, you kind of thinking low blocker. That's your shot. When there's a silly goalie like that, it changes things up a little bit. It probably gives a little bit more of an advantage to him.

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/sport...tters/43143-popular-vokoun-was-silly-12-16-14

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I've only seen the subject addressed in terms of Bowman adopting the LWL specifically, so I can't offer a comprehensive answer here.

But it would surprise me to find out that the NHL coaching fraternity diddled around for a whole decade while the world's most successful coaches ran LW-conservative systems. Not that they necessarily ran carbon-copies of the LWL, but as copycat as hockey coaches are, it would only make sense that they would start dropping their LWs into a more defensive role after seeing that arrangement used to win Cup after Cup. And that would, IMO, be a tidy explanation for the drop in LW scoring given that the timeframe lines up perfectly with the Habs dynasty and the aftermath of the early-70s international clashes.

Its a tidy explanation, but one with no real evidence that I can see (unless we're missing somethibg about Fred Shero and Scottie Bowman copying a form of the LWL earlier than Bob Johnson with the 80s Flames).

IMO, rapid expansion leading to a thinning of the talent pool and the best forwards not playing LW is a more likely reason.

I mean, Rick Martin won his LW All-Star nods and he was not a defebsive player at all. Robitaille racked them up in the 80s and he was not one.

I just see NHL scoring becoming very center-heavy at a time that almost perfectly corresponds with expansion, though I don't know for sure if that's the reason

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I guess I would just need more concrete evidence to believe that LW suddenly became a defensive position during the highest scoring era of NHL history (mid 70s-early 90s). To me, better players being converted to center as the league rapidly expanded seems more plausible.

Also consistent with our top centers list, which is packed with 70s and especially 80s centers

 

[Bear of Bad News]

My guess is that C1958 intended to say that goaltenders predominantly catch *left*, which would put the glove hand on the far side of the goaltender for those shooting from the left wing.

This could potentially hold water.

 

[MXD]

I was sure Kovalchuk would never make any of my ballots. I appears I was wrong, thanks to that pool to choose from.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In hindsight, how bad was the decision to make any player eligible for the centers list automatically ineligible for the wingers list? I would have voted Frank Foyston (who just missed the cut on the centers list and whose career was basically 50/50 IIRC) over any of these guys. Even if you disagree, at least he would have been interesting to talk about!

Ended up having Lanny McDonald in my top 4 because of his playoff edge over Tkachuk and Middleton, though they were close behind.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

In hindsight, how bad was the decision to make any player eligible for the centers list automatically ineligible for the wingers list? I would have voted Frank Foyston (who just missed the cut on the centers list and whose career was basically 50/50 IIRC) over any of these guys.

Ended up having Lanny McDonald in my top 4 because of his playoff edge over Tkachuk and Middleton, though they were close behind.

How does Lanny McDonald have an edge over Middleton in playoffs?

McDonald:
117 44-40-84

Middleton:
114 45-55-100

Same era, Lanny playing mostly in the wild west conference and Middleton a better defensive player.

 

[MXD]

In hindsight, how bad was the decision to make any player eligible for the centers list automatically ineligible for the wingers list? I would have voted Frank Foyston (who just missed the cut on the centers list and whose career was basically 50/50 IIRC) over any of these guys. Even if you disagree, at least he would have been interesting to talk about!

Ended up having Lanny McDonald in my top 4 because of his playoff edge over Tkachuk and Middleton, though they were close behind.

It would have been interesting, but the idea that a player is a Top-60 winger because he's not a Top-60 center... I dunno... Sounds odd. I don't exactly remember who missed it amongst C's.

Foyston would've made my Top-5 (at least) in that group. Milan Novy played some wing as well, right?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How does Lanny McDonald have an edge over Middleton in playoffs?

McDonald:
117 44-40-84

Middleton:
114 45-55-100

Same era, Lanny playing mostly in the wild west conference and Middleton a better defensive player.

Ages 22-32, Lanny had 76 points in 82 playoff games. He played a lot of games outside his statistical prime. And I know his leadership is often cited as a factor in Calgary's 89 Cup win, despite only scoring 4 points in 14 games at the age of 35.

I had them close to back to back anyway, so whatever.

 

[tarheelhockey]

In hindsight, how bad was the decision to make any player eligible for the centers list automatically ineligible for the wingers list? I would have voted Frank Foyston (who just missed the cut on the centers list and whose career was basically 50/50 IIRC) over any of these guys. Even if you disagree, at least he would have been interesting to talk about!

I'm not sure that the decision per se was bad, but Foyston IMO would have pretty easily made this list.

 

[Captain Bowie]

In hindsight, how bad was the decision to make any player eligible for the centers list automatically ineligible for the wingers list? I would have voted Frank Foyston (who just missed the cut on the centers list and whose career was basically 50/50 IIRC) over any of these guys. Even if you disagree, at least he would have been interesting to talk about!

Ended up having Lanny McDonald in my top 4 because of his playoff edge over Tkachuk and Middleton, though they were close behind.

I still think it was the right decision regardless.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm not sure that the decision per se was bad, but Foyston IMO would have pretty easily made this list.

Too late now, but I think that if the goal of these projects is to celebrate the best players, leaving a guy who was basically a coin flip between center and winger off the wingers list because of his versatility is a bad thing.

Not that it changes anything though - I can't see us updating these positional lists for quite a long time, as it was basically a 4-year project.

Just wanted to give Foyston some love for future readers

 

[seventieslord]

In hindsight, how bad was the decision to make any player eligible for the centers list automatically ineligible for the wingers list? I would have voted Frank Foyston (who just missed the cut on the centers list and whose career was basically 50/50 IIRC) over any of these guys. Even if you disagree, at least he would have been interesting to talk about!

Ended up having Lanny McDonald in my top 4 because of his playoff edge over Tkachuk and Middleton, though they were close behind.

are you saying he was in your top 4 and they weren't? Or they all were and he made it along with them because of playoffs?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

are you saying he was in your top 4 and they weren't? Or they all were and he made it along with them because of playoffs?

They ended up being my 3-5 because nobody made a case for one of the guys I had as a ??

 

[Canadiens1958]

Correct

My guess is that C1958 intended to say that goaltenders predominantly catch *left*, which would put the glove hand on the far side of the goaltender for those shooting from the left wing.

This could potentially hold water.

Correct

 

[tarheelhockey]

They ended up being my 3-5 because nobody made a case for one of the guys I had as a ??

Kind of disappointed that we didn't at least discuss several players from the final group. Even if they didn't have broad support, it feels wrong not to have at least given them a bit of our time. Especially since the #60 position wasn't exactly a lock for Reg Noble.

Oh well.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Scoring

When did Backstrom score his 28 points, Big Jean missed 10 games and Phil Goyette missed 5 as well.

We also have alot of missed games from RW's as well with only Provost playing in all 70 games.

Without more information it's just really very speculative.

Throughout the season - verify the HSP. Also the performance during the playoffs reflected the same:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1960.html