Roster moves prior to season opener (Emmerton clears waivers)

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RedWingsNow*

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Forget Hossa vs Franzen.
Holland made a mistake to believe Franzen was worth more than Hossa. History has made that clear.

Just look at Franzen vs Franzen.
Does anyone believe Franzen is skating and shooting and riving the net like he did in 2008-09?
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
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For how many years though? Players do decline and now is about the age they start

Not concerned at all. By the time his production drops to the point that it's not worth it the Wings have plenty of options. Trade him to Florida when his actual salary is low so they can meet the floor. Buy him out or merely play him on the 3rd/4th line. When the cap is 80m, his cap hit will look like the 1.85-2.5m cap hits of today.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Forget Hossa vs Franzen.
Holland made a mistake to believe Franzen was worth more than Hossa. History has made that clear.

Just look at Franzen vs Franzen.
Does anyone believe Franzen is skating and shooting and riving the net like he did in 2008-09?

I think the only area Franzen has improved is in passing and net front play. Of course the passing isn't what we want him to do, but he does make some nice passes from time to time, stuff he simply couldn't do a couple years back and I think that has hurt his shooting and goal output. So not really a good thing that he has improved it as he relies on it when he shouldn't.

The net front thing is something he is much better at, in particular on the PP. But once again is this the best for us, him sitting at the net. He is one of the few guys that could cut in on that RW and absolutely blow it by the goalie, now he defers, passes the puck and anchors in, aka BABCOCK hockey.

Franzen is what he is, he isn't as lazy as a lot of his detractors think and he does provide some nice production for the 3.9 cap hit. What he does now on this team though is play away from his strengths. Maybe it is because like you said he has lost some zip on his shot, I personally see very little difference when he flashes old Franzen, when they spring him on breakout passes he still rifles the puck home. His development into a PP guy is nice, he scores goals there, but what we need is for him to get back to his strength and I think coach hurts there a great deal. Why you have him making comments about it isn't as fun, he is being asked a decent amount of the time to be something he is not, although he does seem to really enjoy being trusted on the PK again skates real hard on that the last season plus.

I will not talk about the other guy he is not a Red Wing, it's high time we got over it.
 

RedWingsNow*

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I disagree.
In 2007-08, Franzen got his shot replacing Homer in front of the net while Homer was out.
That's when Franzen got hot.
He was excellent in front of the net. I remember calling into the radio station and talking about how good Franzen was in front of the net once he got hot there.
 

RedWingsNow*

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Franzen also doesn't do a good job getting to scoring areas with the puck like he once did. It's like he's glued to the boards.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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I disagree.
In 2007-08, Franzen got his shot replacing Homer in front of the net while Homer was out.
That's when Franzen got hot.
He was excellent in front of the net. I remember calling into the radio station and talking about how good Franzen was in front of the net once he got hot there.

He is good there, I think he has gotten better since though. My point is that he doesn't need to be there all the time, especially as one of our guys that can beat a goalie from 45 feet out. No problem with him anchoring there on the PP or some of the time, I just think we have taken some of the net drive and freedom to shoot out of his game and I think it hampers him in particular during 5 on 5.
 

The Zetterberg Era

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Franzen also doesn't do a good job getting to scoring areas with the puck like he once did. It's like he's glued to the boards.

One of the reasons I really like him playing with Alfie, is I hope he drives the middle more, having the primary playmaker out on the boards should help some with that. Datsyuk likes to hang out high in the middle a decent amount, I just don't think Datsyuk and Franzen make for the best linemates and that has been a part of the problem.
 

Chance on Chance

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Not concerned at all. By the time his production drops to the point that it's not worth it the Wings have plenty of options. Trade him to Florida when his actual salary is low so they can meet the floor. Buy him out or merely play him on the 3rd/4th line. When the cap is 80m, his cap hit will look like the 1.85-2.5m cap hits of today.

That's assuming a team will want him them. I'm not sure what his actually salary is then. Playing him on the 3rd ot 4th line could be a wast of a roster spot for a 37 year old Franzen
 

RedWingsNow*

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I will not talk about the other guy he is not a Red Wing, it's high time we got over it.


Best of luck with this.
5-6 years from now, this may go down as the day the golden era of Red Wings hockey died.
When the Red Wings had the best two-way winger in hockey come to them to play, and the Red Wings let him walk so they could try to keep Franzen and Samuesson
 

Bench

3 is a good start
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5-6 years from now, this may go down as the day the golden era of Red Wings hockey died.

Don't worry. We'll get through this together.

ET5ObN9.jpg


Loving all the mileage I get out of this picture.
 

Roy S

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May 16, 2009
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They wanted to and made efforts to keep both Hossa and Franzen and offered both contracts and they tried to sign Hossa even after Franzen signed his contract. They didn't choose one over the other and there was a $23 million difference in their total salaries. Hossa ultimately chose Chicago's offer which offered a bit more money and term and he was also going to an up and coming team with elite players in their early 20's rather than Pav and Z who were approaching their early 30's and likely had a longer window to win Cups. He made a solid business decision.

If anyone critically analyzes what happened and actually believes that Holland just told Hossa to get lost after Franzen signed his contract, or that they thought Franzen would be a 40 to 50 goal scorer throughout the majority of his contract and/or that they thought Franzen was legitimately a better player than Hossa even though there was a giant discrepancy in total salary commitment, then more power to them and I have some swamp land to sell in Florida.
 

Fugu

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Nov 26, 2004
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Don't worry. We'll get through this together.

ET5ObN9.jpg


Loving all the mileage I get out of this picture.


Sign me up. I agree with RWN that the decisions made that off-season... keeping Franzen, Flip and Hudler...though Sammy was lost iirc, along with Kopecky, was the start of some disappointing roster mgt decisions by KH. Doesn't look very good in retrospect at all.
 

RedWingsNow*

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They wanted to and made efforts to keep both Hossa and Franzen and offered both contracts and they tried to sign Hossa even after Franzen signed his contract. They didn't choose one over the other and there was a $23 million difference in their total salaries. Hossa ultimately chose Chicago's offer which offered a bit more money and term and he was also going to an up and coming team with elite players in their early 20's rather than Pav and Z who were approaching their early 30's and likely had a longer window to win Cups. He made a solid business decision.

If anyone critically analyzes what happened and actually believes that Holland just told Hossa to get lost after Franzen signed his contract, or that they thought Franzen would be a 40 to 50 goal scorer throughout the majority of his contract and/or that they thought Franzen was legitimately a better player than Hossa even though there was a giant discrepancy in total salary commitment, then more power to them and I have some swamp land to sell in Florida.

Simply wrong on all accounts.
Nobody says the Wings told Hossa to get lost.
Just like the Wings didn't tell Cleary or Brunner to get lost.

There's oinly so much cap room
You sign Franzen at that cap hit, you've made your choice, unless you expect Hossa to play for $4M a year, which is obviously not a realistic expectation.

In life, you make your priorities.
If you've got $150,000 and you want a Porche and a Lincoln, and you spend $60,000 on the lincoln, you can't have the $100,000 Porche.

If elite hockey players was the priority, signing Franzen before Hossa was a grave mistake.
Unless you actually believed Franzen was a s good or better than Hossa.

Holland made his intentions clear. He signed Franzen thinking Franzen + depth (RFA Hudler and UFA Sammy) was better than Hossa + minimum contract guys/rookies.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
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Sign me up. I agree with RWN that the decisions made that off-season... keeping Franzen, Flip and Hudler...though Sammy was lost iirc, along with Kopecky, was the start of some disappointing roster mgt decisions by KH. Doesn't look very good in retrospect at all.

Right.

And how often and in which threads would you say it's appropriate to bring up the 2009 off-season?

Seems to me anytime Franzen is mentioned, which is a likely thing around here given his position on the team, this gem finds it's way into the conversation for pages. I think you'll find that's the primary reason for the numbness you're seeing towards the topic.

I'd recommend if people want to talk about Hossa and the moves of the 2009 season, maybe we could contain it to one thread. I'm encouraging somebody who wants to actually keep this conversation going to make one.
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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Holland made his intentions clear. He signed Franzen thinking Franzen + depth (RFA Hudler and UFA Sammy) was better than Hossa + minimum contract guys/rookies.

Yeah, and we we would be still cupless with Hossa during these years from 2010 to 2013.

And we would have debate in here, how Holland was stupid to let home-grown Franzen go and loaded millions for older Hossa who was going to shoulder surgery. And how we are going to get a future cap-penalty because of that contract etc... and how Hossa should be bought out at next summer because of that possible future penalty.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Right.

And how often and in which threads would you say it's appropriate to bring up the 2009 off-season?

Seems to me anytime Franzen is mentioned, which is a likely thing around here given his position on the team, this gem finds it's way into the conversation for pages. I think you'll find that's the primary reason for the numbness you're seeing towards the topic.

I'd recommend if people want to talk about Hossa and the moves of the 2009 season, maybe we could contain it to one thread. I'm encouraging somebody who wants to actually keep this conversation going to make one.

I encouraged Franzen vs Franzen, not Franzen vs Hossa.
That's my main point.
But if you even mention Hossa's name, people ignore the overall point and start posting Meme pictures, and telling us to get over Hossa.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Yeah, and we we would be still cupless with Hossa during these years from 2010 to 2013.

And we would have debate in here, how Holland was stupid to let home-grown Franzen go and loaded millions for older Hossa who was going to shoulder surgery. And how we are going to get a future cap-penalty because of that contract etc... and how Hossa should be bought out at next summer because of that possible future penalty.

That's a possibility.
But very unlikely. Hossa busts his ass and contributes to a team in many ways.
And the cap penalty debate isn't as much about the player as it is about the new cap penalty.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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But if you even mention Hossa's name, people ignore the overall point and start posting Meme pictures, and telling us to get over Hossa.

You did more than mention his name. You said letting him go was the crux of the downfall of the entire organization.

All I'm asking you to understand is that maybe people are played out on this topic, particularly in threads that it doesn't exactly relate to. Like 2013-2014 roster moves.

So pretty please?

bky4hot.gif
 

Shaman464

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May 1, 2009
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Cleary is trash, he is costing the younger players valuable minutes and could cost this team games. The team did not really address their biggest weakness, secondary scoring, as I see Alfie+Weiss being only marginally better than Nyquist+Flip+Brunner.
 

RedWingsNow*

Guest
Sign me up. I agree with RWN that the decisions made that off-season... keeping Franzen, Flip and Hudler...though Sammy was lost iirc, along with Kopecky, was the start of some disappointing roster mgt decisions by KH. Doesn't look very good in retrospect at all.

I'm not saying Franzen would have agreed.
But wouldn't it have been better/smarter to sign Hossa to the $5,3M and then say, look Mule, we want you to stay. Sign a one-year discount deal and we'll make you rich next year? Wouldn't it have been good to sign the proven world class hockey player first? Maybe you sign Franzen too and then spend the summer in cap hell trying to dump Cleary or whoever. I don't know.

But management is about prioritizing. And first thing is first.
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,236
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Holland made his intentions clear. He signed Franzen thinking Franzen + depth (RFA Hudler and UFA Sammy) was better than Hossa + minimum contract guys/rookies.

Yeah, and we we would be still cupless with Hossa during 2010 to 2013.

And we would have debate in here, how Holland was stupid to let Franzen go and loaded millions for Hossa who was going to shoulder surgery. And how we are going to get a future cap-penalty because of that contract etc... and how Hossa should be bought out at next summer.

EDIT:

Hossa since summer of 2009:

95 goals / 243 games = 0.391 goals per game.
95 goals / 5.275 caphit = 18.01 goals per caphit million.
243 games per total 294 games = 0.827 "injury proneness" ratio
12 goals / 54 playoff games = 0.222 goals per playoff game

Combined regular season + Playoffs: 107 goals / 297 games = 0.360 goals per game.

Franzen since summer of 2009:

81 goals / 221 games = 0.367 goals per game.
81 goals / 3.945 caphit = 20.53 goals per caphit million.
221 games per total 294 games = 0.752 "injury proneness" ratio
13 goals / 39 playoff games = 0.333 goals per playoff game

Combined regular season + Playoffs: 94 goals / 260 games = 0.361 goals per game.

Is this really worth of a debate? Hossa could be a better regular season individual and a little bit healthier guy, but relatively, his goalscoring per buck is worse than Franzen's. And Franzen scores 50% more goals at the playoffs even at his worst (after those prime years).

In big picture, it really doesn't matter what choise Holland did. Best one would have been to keep both. Because of cap reasons, he was available to keep only one. Swapping either one to another, does not make any difference to our long-term success.

It's time end this meaningless debate that doesn't lead to anything and move on.
 
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