Speculation: Roster Building Thread - Part XXII

[mas0764]

It's the entirety of my concern.

It's a terrible idea to hitch our wagon to Zibanejad for 8 years because history will be entirely against us winning a Cup in that circumstance.

It's also a huge uphill battle that we haven't added even low-end Stepan-like 1C options to our system yet. Huge, huge miss, and the biggest indictment of the Gorton regime was their failure to get creative with the stable of defensive talent they had, not to be able to land a future 1C.

 

[NYRFAN218]

I think the Couturier contract helps the Rangers but I'd also rather Mika at 5-6 years even at a higher cost. Years 7 and 8 of that deal are going to be so bad.

 

[mas0764]

St. Louis?

Had PPG ROR.

Zetterberg was pretty old when he won with the Red Wings.

... and Datsyuk.

Vegas seems to do just fine without a stud center.

Hasn't won a Cup. We are talking about winning Cups, not "not winning Cups."

Nashville made it to the finals without one.

Huh, great example. A parallel team to us, with a ton of good defenders but no elite 1C. Didn't win a Cup.

There's a lesson somewhere in there.

Washington did it. And sure, Backstrom is good, Kuznetsov has his moments.

Those are two 1C types.

There's more than one way to skin a cat and win a cup.

There isn't. You need a 1C playing at a 1C level.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

What worries me about Zibs is he's getting paid for PP #'s. I personally don't like paying people based on their PP success. The deeper you get into the playoffs, the less it's relevant.

but, Zibs was the best forward in our last playoff 'push', 5 years ago. He didn't light it up by any means but it was discernible... this was also before his 'coming out party'.

Most of the top guys do.

His ES production has still been good though. Even last year despite the early season suckage its not like a large portion of his production came on the PP.

I'm more worried about what his ES production is going to look like in the coming years and that he'll age into an expensive PP specialist. That shot is the last thing that goes.

 

[Chytilmania]

I'll believe that when it actually happens . The thing about running guys is that you will get called out on it....is he that ready to drop his gloves and respond to an invite ? Don't get me wrong....LOL...but I hope he is and he will . The Rangers could use some of that in a top 6 player .

I meant fat and round like a bowling ball.

 

[Fitzy]

Of all of the "Need to win a cup" roster arguments out there, the one I have the hardest time disproving is top centers.

There are almost no cup winning teams in the cap era without at least one star center.

 

[mas0764]

I think other teams are hoping the Rangers think their options are drying up and that they make a panic move.

I don't know if the Rangers quite feel the same way at this point. I think they feel pretty confident that the options they have today aren't going anywhere immediately and that other options may also emerge.

The problem is the Rangers will need to call those bluffs and be ok dealing Mika and/or Strome at the deadline instead of signing them to long term deals. That is how the Rangers can "win," the transactions if they can't get those players back on team-friendly deals. You can't just ride it out and hope something crops up, because if nothing crops up, then you either cave and give out the extensions that you know are no good for you, or, you do have to make a panic move. You have to be able to say "We can take a step back again for the long term health of the franchise," and be ok with it. Kakko and Lafreniere aren't going anywhere. If it takes 2 more years to find a 1C, fine. As long as you bring in a haul at the deadline, you have won.

But as we've seen this team tends to despise the idea of being a seller at the deadline even if they have no legit Cup aspirations, if they are anywhere close to a playoff team.

 

[mas0764]

Of all of the "Need to win a cup" roster arguments out there, the one I have the hardest time disproving is top centers.

There are almost no cup winning teams in the cap era without at least one star center.

That's cause it's basically a fact.

 

[mas0764]

Im very interested in seeing Larkin on this team. He is the only real answer out there that makes sense.

Trading for a couple prospects would make sense.

 

[haohmaru]

It's a terrible idea to hitch our wagon to Zibanejad for 8 years because history will be entirely against us winning a Cup in that circumstance.

It's also a huge uphill battle that we haven't added even low-end Stepan-like 1C options to our system yet. Huge, huge miss, and the biggest indictment of the Gorton regime was their failure to get creative with the stable of defensive talent they had, not to be able to land a future 1C.

How so? Stamkos just won two Cups @ 29 and 30 years old. I think a lot of it depends on who is centering that 2nd line.

And, part 2, the Rangers haven't drafted a #1C since... uh... hrm... uh... Savard? Weight? IDK that they really ever have had a true home-grown elite 1C.

I never considered Stepan a 1C. Though, Arizona did.

 

[mas0764]

So you are saying that an experienced guy like Bergeron or say Malkin, couldn't gel with our wingers in one or two seasons? And in turn, they couldn't adapt and learn to play with them very quckly? Enough to challenge for a Cup?

Sorry, I don't think that argument carries much weight.

You don't "need a guy who is in their mid 20's to grow with the team." It would be nice. Maybe it would be beneficial. It makes for a nice story and as a fan makes for an emotional attachment. But there is a huge leap between all that and what you are claiming, that it's a "necessity". Frankly, I think you are WAY overstating the importance.

It might come up that you have the opportunity to import a 27 year old Ryan O'Reilly somewhere along the line.

But if your argument is hinging on snagging end of career Bergeron or Malkin at age 35 you are going to find not many takers for that genius idea.

 

[mas0764]

Bergeron is in europe! Malkin cant stay healthy period. I didnt say that they cant gel, its that our options are drying up. Those players arent the answer. They are a stop gap and its kicking the can down the road.

My importance is finding someone who is the long term answer at center. That is a necessity in my book. You can not bank on those players becoming available. Coutier was just resign, Barkov will be too.

I believe Larkin is the answer then have Chytl play 2nd line

You are on the right track but I do not love Larkin as a solution. I at least am not ready to offer any prospect of substance for him like Nils or Kravstov. If I'm not giving up those guys for Eichel then I'm not giving them up for Larkin.

 

[brakeyawself]

Sorry that was Krejci. But we dont know if they are highly qualified in a few years when their contracts are up. Also Malkin is a shell of himself. i dont want him, he cant stay on the ice. Bergeron would have to want to leave boston and i dont see him leaving there.

I get it, I was just using them as examples. They were at the top of that list.

Hell, Pavelski the past 2 seasons would have been great.

 

[Ola]

Lol you can choose to believe him or not. He is our vetted insider. I choose to believe him, Also the price during the draft was believed to be 15th pick and either Kravy or Nils. Which is a steep price but he is a 24yo who is already a top 25 center in this league.

Yeah but, I think it’s fair to be a little sceptical about Larkin’s availability. The price was ‘believed to have been’, and stuff like that aren’t exactly portrayed as facts neither should they be re-reported as such.

 

[brakeyawself]

It might come up that you have the opportunity to import a 27 year old Ryan O'Reilly somewhere along the line.

But if your argument is hinging on snagging end of career Bergeron or Malkin at age 35 you are going to find not many takers for that genius idea.

No, the point was the opposite of "hinging on" anything. That was literally the point. That it doesn't hinge on any one thing and there are many ways to go about this. Not just finding a young to mid 20's center and letting them grow with the team.

I am arguing completely against the idea that it "hinges" on anything at all. There are many ways to go about the next 5 years.

Maybe PLD becomes available. Maybe Dallas decides to rebuild and move Seguin. Maybe we can trade Lundkivst for Turcotte or Krebs.

There's like 20-30 different possibilities.

 

[Tob]

Zib with a NMC means we have to re-sign him which means it's going to be expensive. There are always creative options but my friend Occam told me re-signing Zib is the most likely outcome. Couturier won't bring the price down to $7.75M-$8.25MX8 years. It'll dislodge the Zibanejad camp from their $9.5M+ ask on a 7 year deal is my guess. Larry reported the ask of $10M which is certainly never going to be on a 8-year term. They're in the $9M+ range now that we're in August. Maybe over the next 5-7 days Zibanejad's camp will present a $9.25M/7 or $8.67M/8 deal for Drury to consider in light of Couteuroiriosirs's $7.75M/8 year deal off of a Selke Trophy.

 

[mas0764]

Will have to see with Vegas.

What is there to see? We've seen.

Are we waiting around to see if they can sneak a championship and then proclaim victory on the "see you don't need a 1C," argument?

Why would that change anything? So 1 team in like the last 20 years would have managed to do it, and they had tremendous difficulty getting over the hump?

Sign me up!!!

Or, you know, we could emulate the best teams who won multiple cups and go get a god damn young 1C.

 

[brakeyawself]

Zib with a NMC means we have to re-sign him which means it's going to be expensive. Couturier won't bring the price down to $7.75M-$8.25MX8 years. It'll dislodge the Zibanejad camp from their $9.5M+ ask on a 7 year deal is my guess. Larry reported the ask of $10M which is certainly never going to be on a 8-year term. They're in the $9M+ range now that we're in August. Maybe over the next 5-7 days Zibanejad's camp will present a $9.25M/7 or $8.67M/8 deal for Drury to consider in light of Couteuroiriosirs's $7.75M/8 year deal off of a Selke Trophy.

To me, that Selke trophy is what makes Couturier, or should make Couturier more valuable than Zibs. Even if Zibs does have the goal scoring edge. In other aspects of the game, pretty much all of them, Couturier wins. So really, Zibs shouldn't be any more than like him, if anything, slightly less.

 

[mas0764]

How so? Stamkos just won two Cups @ 29 and 30 years old. I think a lot of it depends on who is centering that 2nd line.

And, part 2, the Rangers haven't drafted a #1C since... uh... hrm... uh... Savard? Weight? IDK that they really ever have had a true home-grown elite 1C.

I never considered Stepan a 1C. Though, Arizona did.

Tampa has Point as their 1C, really.

Hey, if I had Brayden Point and could afford to have Zibanejad as a 2C, sign me up.

 

[haohmaru]

Tampa has Point as their 1C, really.

Hey, if I had Brayden Point and could afford to have Zibanejad as a 2C, sign me up.

Yeah, except Stamkos signed his 8x8 deal before Point played his first NHL game. Easy to GM in hindsight...

 

[mas0764]

No, the point was the opposite of "hinging on" anything. That was literally the point. That it doesn't hinge on any one thing and there are many ways to go about this. Not just finding a young to mid 20's center and letting them grow with the team.

I am arguing completely against the idea that it "hinges" on anything at all. There are many ways to go about the next 5 years.

Maybe PLD becomes available. Maybe Dallas decides to rebuild and move Seguin. Maybe we can trade Lundkivst for Turcotte or Krebs.

There's like 20-30 different possibilities.

Those "possibilities" only work if they end up with us having a 1C who can keep Lafreniere and Kakko's window open, instead of it ending in 2 years when Zibanejad declines.

And the importing Malkin or Bergeron ideas are not getting us anywhere. Those guys at their advanced ages are only going to be supplementary players, not drivers. We need a legit 1C. He doesn't need to carry the offense but then he will need to win matchups at a 1C pace in other areas like ROR and Toews did/do.

 

[Tawnos]

Fair on Zetterberg, I thought he was a in his early 30's at that point.

Will have to see with Vegas. I think their biggest issue now might be goaltending. Doubt they can match what they lost.

Backstrom is a good player, but I don't think he's in the class of some of these other players that people are mentioning, or even Zibby.

And ROR and even Schenn are nice players, but neither are in the class we are talking about. At least IMO. And he's getting paid $7.5 mil, which I think is even a bit high for him. But lower than what we are expecting Zibs to want.

I don't think Eichel fits until we know if the surgery is successful and allows him to play at a high level after that. In the 5 seasons prior to this neck thing, he only played more than 68 games twice. So I don't even trust his regular health, let alone now. Anyway, to me Eichel is WAY more than we need. He'd be a luxury signing.

Larkin is a bit more realistic and at least stays healthy. He wouldn't cost nearly as much either which is key. Or at least he shouldn't.

But I would be fine with a guy like PLD on our top line. Which I don't think is too crazy. Or like I said, Lindholm.

Heck, I would have been ok with Dvorak if the price was right. At least coming in as our 2/3C.

I don't know what caliber of player you think we're talking about that ROR or Backstrom aren't part of. 70-90 point centers. ROR is 75 points per 82 in his last 3 seasons. Backstrom is 79 per 82 in a 1000+ game career (including 75 per 82 in the last 3 seasons which were in his 30s).

Eichel is possibly slightly above those numbers offensively, but the injuries are definitely a concern. My thing is that, if the "luxury" as you call him is the only option available to address the push and pull, he's still a better option than stop-gaps.

Larkin is the ideal choice for me, but he may not be available.

 

[Tob]

To me, that Selke trophy is what makes Couturier, or should make Couturier more valuable than Zibs. Even if Zibs does have the goal scoring edge. In other aspects of the game, pretty much all of them, Couturier wins. So really, Zibs shouldn't be any more than like him, if anything, slightly less.

We get your evaluations. By all means Couts took a discount for long term security with Philly. He's had a tremendous career there and is very valued by the club and endeared by the fans and the city. Just like Nuge. Zib I would say will more likely ask for market value which in a year's time will be 7X$9.5M+ on the UFA market. That's basically the immovable fact in these negotiations.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I mean Drury’s options are slowly drying up.

Mika is gonna bend him over a barrel if he has a great season and they don’t make a move for another center

 

[mas0764]

Yeah, except Stamkos signed his 8x8 deal before Point played his first NHL game. Easy to GM in hindsight...

Yeah but I'm positing that Tampa probably doesn't win with Stamkos as their 1C.

So maybe we can sign a crippling cap deal with Mika and then luck into our own Point like they did, but I'm not counting on it. It certainly isn't going to be my plan that I have to find a 90 point center with a 20-something first round pick.