Speculation: Roster Building Thread Part XI: We can read between the lines

[RGY]

No team without a true elite centerpiece has won the cup in god knows how long. All teams that won the cup have drafted first and gotten a superstar out of it.

It's pretty clear that the only realistic way to win, barring a anomaly, is to be really, really terrible at hockey for a few years, draft generational talents or elite 1C's who will carry your team.

So why not just say that you want the Rangers to suck a few seasons, end up bottom of the league, get rewarded with 1st picks, and win a cup in 5+ years.

I rather have my hopes for being an anomaly, than spend time in the dark ages and slum it with Buffalo and Edmonton. Who still can't get out of the bottom of the barrel, despite drafting ****ing Eichel and McDavid.

I think some people forget, blocked it out of their memory, or just were not around to experience the 7 years we didnt make the playoffs. It was heart breaking every year to be a die hard fan of such a mediocre and abysmal team.

I won’t apologize for wanting to keep competing with the CHANCE we are that “anamoly” and we make it all the way. Because it CAN happen. The game really can sway on a bounce here, a quick play there, etc, and all of the sudden you have a shot. It quite honestly happened last year just based off of playoff seeding. And tbh it truly was AVs fault we did not get by Ottawa into the ECF. He managed the games so incredibly poorly in terms of personnel choices. Hank wasn’t superb but he didnt exactly have the right guys in front of him at the crucial moments of the game that decide if you are going to be a winner or loser.

As I do every year around this time, lets see where this team is come February 1st. If we have success over the next month and a half I want this team to add not subtract. I think the defense will continue to take shape with Shatty getting more comfortable and Skjei taking a step forward. I think we have already started to see Smith settle back in and McDonagh’s game has been improving. They need forward depth. And hopefully ADA, Chytil, and Letteri can continue to push forward

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I don't think you can define "this year's edition" yet. They've been pretty solid the past month and a half and doing that going a decent stretch without their #1C.

Outside of TB, does anyone in the East scare you this year? Not me. I think we're as good as anyone else in the East. If you're in that position, you're not selling, particularly if your HOF goalie has limited time left as a HOF goalie.

I need to see where this team is at in late January and see if the rest of the East is still spinning its wheels. I don't feel like there's a team out there that's lights out better than we are. Call it parity.

You can call it parity, I see a team that is outplayed in almost every single game and has won on the back of some unsustainable goaltending and lucky bounces.

Things will even out soon enough unless the team starts playing better. With the coach and the roster we have, I wouldn't bet on that happening.

 

[McD37]

McDonagh was out for about 5 games. I'm not asking for more injuries, but look around the league, injuries effect teams and this teams hasn't had very many.

I get what you are saying. But it is not like Rangers were not hit by injuries and those injured happened to be the most important players of the team. Also, and I do not want to jinx it now, but from my short time following Rangers (2,5 years), I remember couple of more serious injuries and the team was still able to get wins and have a good record ( for example, Zibanejad injury last year)

 

[NYR Viper]

You know I wasn't directly referring to those runs.... they still didn't have enough btw! Proves my point even further!


Every year since the ECF was a weak PO performance. .. teams like that live in perpetual mediocrity

I think it's important clarification that the Rangers have been far above mediocre for many years. I think the argument many people are making is that in order to get over that final hump, some changes may need to be made. Mediocre would be Philadelphia, Montreal, Minnesota, etc. Teams who haven't been able to go deep in the playoffs. The Rangers have been a very consistently good team and a team that has gone deep in the playoffs. Even last year, I would say going to the 2nd round was impressive. (3) losses in conference finals and a loss in the Stanley Cup Final isn't mediocre. In saying that I think it proves that they need a bit more.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

No excuses. Win. Don't blame AV for losing the Ottawa series. Lundqvist was responsible for losing that series.

AV's deployment of his personnel was a gigantic reason they lost that series.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I see we’re still ignoring that middle ground between buying and selling that Gorton has thankfully realized in his “rebuild on the fly.”

I’m sure it’ll be even more apparent this offseason when he keeps following the same trend. For what it’s worth, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone seriously talk about trading 1sts for rentals this year at all. If it came up, it was referring to trading for Erik Karlsson, who is a whole different story.

I mean we’ve had numerous discussions about trading Ryan McDonagh. Does that type of move signify a “go-for-it” mentality? I think most people have liked how Gorton has tried to bring in younger talent to add to the the currently young talent that’s hitting its prime. In two offseasons, he’s shifted our C depth from Step-Brass-Hayes to a potential future C pool that includes Mika, Chytil, Hayes, Miller, and Lias. Just be patient and let the guy work. In the meantime, let’s see how they progress through the New Year. Maybe they go on a losing streak or have an injury that plummets their playoff chances. That’ll lead JG to selling. The bigger types of trades will happen in the offseason, if they happen at all.

 

[NickyFotiu]

You know I wasn't directly referring to those runs.... they still didn't have enough btw! Proves my point even further!


Every year since the ECF was a weak PO performance. .. teams like that live in perpetual mediocrity

Was going to the cup good enough in 2014? What would be enough this season?

 

[Hire Sather]

2017
2nd + 3rd for Brendan Smith

2016
Two 2nd’s + Saarela for Staal

2015
Duclair + Moore + 1st + 2nd for Yandle

2014
1st + 2nd + Callahan for MSL

2013
Two 2nds + 3rd for Ryan ****ing Clowe

2012
Dubinsky, Anisimov, Erixon + 1st for Nash

So over the last 6 seasons, we have moved:

3 1st round picks
7 2nd round picks
2 3rd round picks

I’m going to snap and go crazy if we keep repeating this asinine trend.

You have a problem with everyone of those trades?

No good memories from the 13 14 and 14 15 runs?

No cup so it's just erased from your memory? Did you not enjoy those runs?

Only one of those deals I'd undo is the Staal trade.

 

[haohmaru]

So you criticize his post for not painting the full picture, and then throw out a "high picks = Oilers" bit? That doesn't strike you as the least bit hypocritical?

He's pointing out every trade the Rangers made that involved assets for (our) picks without listing the picks we've gotten back during the same time period. That's simply a half-truth.

He's constantly talking about team building by trading assets for high(er) picks and/or drafting high. Pointing out that the Oilers seem to be his kind of team-building isn't hypocritical. It's an observation.

 

[Beacon]

The worst position to be in is as a borderline Wild Card team. Either you fail to make the playoffs or you get embarrassed there, but either way, hockey ends in April, long before anything exciting happens. Then you get stuck with a mid-round pick that does nothing to improve your team. You could hit the jackpot or you can get a bust, but most likely you will draft a player who in his prime will be somewhere in the Grabner to Nash level, a second or third liner. That's nice, but by the time this pick pans out half a dozen years later, guys like Grabner and Nash are long gone so your team didn't really improve. So you're stuck in place, rotating your vets for similar quality draftees, while your young guys get older and more expensive.

Nothing changes, you win 1 Cup in almost 80 years because you had the highest payroll, traded away a ton of your youth, got lucky with the Russians (still Soviet Union when Zubov, Nemchinov, Kovalev were drafted) and took advantage of the Oilers inability to pay Messier, among others. Today this one Cup doesn't even happen. Note that our Conn Smythe was a top-10 draftee.

Either go for the Cup or go for the top pick. If we were the worst team in the NHL right now, there would be a sense of excitement that we're about to draft a likely future Hall of Fame defenseman (yeah, yeah, it's too early to say that, but you know what I mean), one of the best 18 year old defensemen in many years. Instead, we have to be excited about beating the Senators. Which of these 2 options makes you more excited?

 

[kovazub94]

@Mac n Gs, you make good points. In the last few year the team has actively turned around a significant portion of its core both up front and on D (besides restocking the prospect pool to somewhat respectable levels given our young core0.

Spinning wheels? Staying put? This is how some of you would describe the last few years? Hardly if you're paying attention.

Rebuilding on a fly? Yup, definitely can see it.

 

[haohmaru]

Stop acting obtuse. We’ve invested a plethora of picks on going for it like blind fools and people on this board still think we have a fighting chance with this group of underachievers.

Wake up.

Underachievers? LOL, okay.

3 ECF's in 4 years without a franchise center. "Underachievers".

Most playoff appearances the last, what, 10 years. "Underachievers".

100+ points 4 out of the last 5 season. "SELL!!!!!!"

I'm not the one sleeping.

I get that the ultimate goal is winning the Cup. Teams don't win Cups by trading their best players at the trade deadline for a pick in next year's draft when they're in the playoff picture. Not going to happen and doubly not going to happen in New York. You can wish for it all you want, but the Rangers really haven't been in "sell mode" in a long time for good reason - because they're constantly in the playoffs. What kind of message are you going to send to your core if you jettison some of your best players when the team has been busting its ass all year to get into the playoffs? What kind of message does that send to future draftees, UFA's, college UFA's, etc... There's a reason Vesey and Hayes signed here and it's not because the Rangers have a history of jettisoning good players at the trade deadline for draft picks when they're challenging for playoff position.

The year we're woefully out of it in late January is the year that I'm sure Gorton will have no trouble whatsover moving assets for picks.

 

[kovazub94]

Predators surely got embarrassed last year. Kings too a few years before. It was embarrassing that we didn't capitalized on the clear opportunity to get to ECF last year over Ottawa.

Please try something else.

Edit: Opposite perspective: how many President Trophy holders and top play-off seeds in the other conference made it to the SCF?

 

[GAGLine]

I think some people forget, blocked it out of their memory, or just were not around to experience the 7 years we didnt make the playoffs. It was heart breaking every year to be a die hard fan of such a mediocre and abysmal team.

I remember it quite well. I remember a team that did whatever it could to try to win now rather than selling. The reason many people advocate selling is because we don't want to repeat that mistake. We'd rather take a small step back now so we can be better tomorrow, than waste more assets in a vain attempt to go for it and end up sucking for years.

 

[haohmaru]

I remember it quite well. I remember a team that did whatever it could to try to win now rather than selling. The reason many people advocate selling is because we don't want to repeat that mistake. We'd rather take a small step back now so we can be better tomorrow, than waste more assets in a vain attempt to go for it and end up sucking for years.

Those teams were woefully put together. Bobby Holik? Good god. I think Gorton has his shit together. It's tough to win in a salary capped 30 team league. A lot different animal than the 60's and 70's with 6 & 12. Even drafting can be tricky because you can't retain all of your "home-grown" players eventually no matter what. Successful teams lose players because they can't pay them all. In any sport.

 

[Kupo]

You have a problem with everyone of those trades?

No good memories from the 13 14 and 14 15 runs?

No cup so it's just erased from your memory? Did you not enjoy those runs?

Only one of those deals I'd undo is the Staal trade.

Fun? Of course. The Cup Run was great. Disappointing but I’d rather go and lose than not go at all.

Disagree about the trades though.

The MSL trade was hideous. MSL was only willing to waive for us. Yet TB still got a 1st and 2nd on top of Cally. For less than a year and a half of MSL.

Yandle would have been worth it had we re-signed him. Another scenario where we paid a hefty price for a year and a half rental.

Staal was also an atrocious trade. He was playing like garbage for carolina and he was a pending UFA.

Two 2nds and a 3rd was also overpayment for Clowe who’s brains were mush from concussions, on top of the fact that he was a pending UFA.

The Nash trade didn’t work in our favor either. At least he wasn’t a rental though. But that’s a lot of depth we moved for a player who’s only had 2 productive seasons for us.

All of these trades were horse**** for us. We ultimately morgaged our future to try and win the cup and failed.

 

[Kaapo di tutti capi]

You have a problem with everyone of those trades?

No good memories from the 13 14 and 14 15 runs?

No cup so it's just erased from your memory? Did you not enjoy those runs?

Only one of those deals I'd undo is the Staal trade.

While I do agree with the majority of your post, I actually do have a problem with more than a couple of those trades. If we had re-signed Stralman and traded Girardi we a) might not have needed to make that trade and b) even if we still made it, would have had a way better defense and an extra 4.5M to spend since we wouldn't have needed to sign the corpse of Dan Boyle. I thought we overpaid by a first round pick for MSL. And what the Sharks got for Ryane Slowe was highway robbery.

 

[Off Sides]

I am not convinced rebuilding on the fly leads to a cup winner either, I am not totally convinced Gorton has gone all in picking that direction either, seems like he's hedged some of his bets. All the same kicking the can with this current group, with some marginal rental yet again is not really all that exhilarating.

 

[Kupo]

Teams don't win Cups by trading their best players at the trade deadline for a pick in next year's draft when they're in the playoff picture.

The teams that have won Cups manufacturered their teams through the draft. LA. Pit. CHI. They’ve also made smart signings and good trades.

We were on that same track but fell into this unavoidable binge of sacrificing the future.

At the end of the day, we’ve done a god awful job of managing our assets.

I’m personally done with that. It’s a failed approach. It’s time to change things up.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Underachievers? LOL, okay.

3 ECF's in 4 years without a franchise center. "Underachievers".

Most playoff appearances the last, what, 10 years. "Underachievers".

100+ points 4 out of the last 5 season. "SELL!!!!!!"

I'm not the one sleeping.

I get that the ultimate goal is winning the Cup. Teams don't win Cups by trading their best players at the trade deadline for a pick in next year's draft when they're in the playoff picture. Not going to happen and doubly not going to happen in New York. You can wish for it all you want, but the Rangers really haven't been in "sell mode" in a long time for good reason - because they're constantly in the playoffs. What kind of message are you going to send to your core if you jettison some of your best players when the team has been busting its ass all year to get into the playoffs? What kind of message does that send to future draftees, UFA's, college UFA's, etc... There's a reason Vesey and Hayes signed here and it's not because the Rangers have a history of jettisoning good players at the trade deadline for draft picks when they're challenging for playoff position.

The year we're woefully out of it in late January is the year that I'm sure Gorton will have no trouble whatsover moving assets for picks.

I don't think anyone is saying that those squads underachieved. Hell you can even make a case that last year's team overachieved before our genius coach f***ed it all up.

The problem is that there are a select group of people who think that just because the core of this team isn't all that different than the contender core from a few years ago aren't looking at thing realistically. The roster has changed more than you think and most of the "core" was better then than they are now. The support forwards are worse too and we still have the same moron coaching this team.

Forget woefully out of it, even if they're on the bubble in late January they should be selling.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Stop acting obtuse. We’ve invested a plethora of picks on going for it like blind fools and people on this board still think we have a fighting chance with this group of underachievers.

Wake up.

Lol, who are you?

 

[Mac n Gs]

Oh for f***’s sake, I know I didn’t just read that Nash was a 2nd or 3rd liner at his peak. And what’s even f***ing better is the cyclical logic that having the top pick can get us excited about the potential of Dahlin, yet ignores that Nash was a 1OA pick himself. Well based on this brilliant logic, what does the first round pick get you: a 2nd or 3rd liner at their peak, or a future HoF defenseman? With all of these top picks, do you get an RNH or Auston Matthews? Doughty/Hedman or Cam Barker? Michael Dal Colle or Clayton Keller.

This idea about draft position may have been true years ago, but the talent pool is expanding exponentially. There are just a lot of better hockey players today than in prior years, and I’d bet if you reanalyzed those numbers, the trends and percentages would change to reflect that

 

[GAGLine]

Those teams were woefully put together. Bobby Holik? Good god. I think Gorton has his **** together. It's tough to win in a salary capped 30 team league. A lot different animal than the 60's and 70's with 6 & 12. Even drafting can be tricky because you can't retain all of your "home-grown" players eventually no matter what. Successful teams lose players because they can't pay them all. In any sport.

I agree with you on the bolded. Because of the salary cap, it's more important than ever that we have a strong farm system.

 

[Kupo]

Lol, who are you?

I’m an not at liberty to say.

 

[Trxjw]

He's pointing out every trade the Rangers made that involved assets for (our) picks without listing the picks we've gotten back during the same time period. That's simply a half-truth.

He's constantly talking about team building by trading assets for high(er) picks and/or drafting high. Pointing out that the Oilers seem to be his kind of team-building isn't hypocritical. It's an observation.

I'm not sure how it's a half-truth. The Rangers sure as hell have traded a lot more high picks than they've received over the last several years. That's pretty cut and dry.

You can't say he's being disingenuous about the Rangers draft pick situation and then pick the ultimate example of why building through high picks doesn't work. His idea of team building is just as easily represented by the Pens, Caps, Blackhawks, or Lightning as it is the Oilers, Panthers, or Coyotes.