Prospect Info: Robert Hagg [March 2014: AAV is $925k, 3-yr ELC, per Tim P.]

[sa cyred]

People don't like Hagg as a player for the following reasons:

• Hagg is an utter black hole offensively and that type of player is outdated.
• While it is true that those that believe he is not an effective player think he should be lower in the lineup than some players frequently mentioned, the evaluation of him as a player is and should be independent of that.
• His mental and physical passivity is on the level of AMac and arguably worse. Quite frankly, MacDonald is the better player right now.
• This is not new. Many of the same people criticizing his play most harshly now have had the exact same concerns for 2, 3, 4, and even 5 seasons now.
• This organization developed and coaches him in a way that magnifies his weaknesses and didn't encourage his growth enough in the areas where he lacked. They did him a huge disservice, as they continue to do to others.

I'll save this in my drafts for the next time it's needed because I think I've typed 6 different versions.

*Edit* I guess I should have crystallized my thoughts faster. What LoD said.

You and LOD had similar posts but decided to quote yours since its broken into points where I can talk about each one.

1) You are correct that currently, he does struggle offensively. He makes the "safe pass" which I know many here do not like (which usually includes passing to Ghost to pass it out). I personally don't see that as a negative. If he believes that Ghost can make a better play with it, then so be it. I do wonder where the skills offensively went missing. He had the talent when he was drafted to play more offensively (including WJC PP time). Not saying he doesn't need to improve here, but a player Like Gudas (other than his shot) has shown that you don't need to be a Sanhiem/Ghost offensively to be an NHL defender. Especially a 5/6 defender.

2) Partially agree, but I don't think it 100% is. While some do, one can frequently see him being compared to Morin & Sanhiem. This started with his draft year where Morin vs. Hagg was constant (with many thinking Hagg should have been drafted over Morin, which obviously shouldnt have been but has been a major problem with many Morin fans)

3) Fair points but can we really say his mental problems are that much different then the mental lapses that happen for Ghost/Sanhiem defensively? Realistically, other than maybe Provorov who I have seen some more mistakes this season, can we really state with confidence that mental passivity doesn't happen amongst our other players? Like truely, can we say his mental passiveness is that much more than when Sanheim or Ghost lose their players defensively, which does still happen as they are learning still? Obviously they are on another level on other facets of the game, especially offensively, but they still have their struggles. For physical passiveness, I truely don't see it as bad as others I guess. Not to say hits is the greatest stat to use in this case, but a person that is 3rd in the league in hits has to be somewhat active defensively. I am going to watch how Hagg handles zone entries more next game. That is MacD's biggest problem, and why he is considered a huge detriment to the team. I never noticed this problem with Hagg but it could be there.

4) I understand and he still has his problems of course. That being said, I have watched him since his Sweden days, and more so while he was in the AHL. In the AHL, I have watched about 50% Phantoms games a season since I have many relatives in the Allentown area. I go to about 10-15 games a season personally. While he didnt improve in some areas, I definitely saw progression in his play over the years. The last half of last season, I saw huge improvements in his game, especially after his mighty struggle to start the season (anyone that visits the prospect thread can remember that). Many people who have gone to those games have also stated this improvement fact. I know there were a few on here that didn't see that improvement but as many as there were not there were equally as much.

5) 100% agree. Zero argument from me there. I think the team's management of their players in general has been rather poor. Alot of the areas he needed work on I felt like the team didn't do enough to improve on it.


Obviously I know many don't agree, but I know from posts that there are quite a few that do. While advanced stats don't tell a whole story, I am huge in the statistics department due to my job. By doing some analysis's on his advanced stats play, it really does show the area's where he needs improvement and area's where he really does exceed at a high level. Again, I am not saying he is a top 4 defender, or that he has been great. He has had his struggles, but I definitely don't agree that he has shown no improvement, or his defensive play isn't an asset to the team. Of course, his offensive play might limit him in the future, but I don't see how he can't be a solid #5/6 playing 14 mins a night.

EDIT: Wanted to post this: 2017-18 Philadelphia Flyers Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Some cool breakdowns of our players using advanced stats.

EDIT2: Sorry for the long winded post. It has been a real long time since I have posted like that haha. Last time had to be when I debated with Jester, or had to go against Wolfy with OKT or DenverBoone with Carle. I really have been here for way to long lol. Over 10 years posting. Damn

 

[deadhead]

I think people just get impatient with prospects.
Rookies struggle, heck look at Toronto and some of their 2nd/3rd year guys.
You don't really know what you have until a player's fourth season (unless they're an overage college or AHL guy, then it's what can you do right now), coming into the league from 19-22, most players don't hit their peak until 24 or so.

Hagg isn't an uber talent, but he's got size, good mobility, willing to hit and fight for the puck in the corners, contest in the crease.
He needs a lot of polish, but so does Sanheim in different skills.
You want Hagg to be competent at possessing and moving the puck out of the D-zone, and learn to shoot decently from the point. That's more than enough given his skill set. He doesn't have to play end to end, just take care of business as the "reliable" part of a D-pair.

You should have a different set of expectations for Sanheim. Same with Provorov and Myers.
But someone has to take the trash out while the talented guys put on highlight shows.

 

[whitstifier]

Hagg is miles behind Gudas offensively

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Hagg is miles behind Gudas offensively

He’s miles behind Gudas just in general. The organization for some insane reason seems to think differently.

 

[flyersfan187]

I don't mind him as a cheap option for the 3rd pairing that can play on the pk. I doubt he will ever get a huge contract and it is nice to have a cheaper option to play on the 3rd pairing that won't hurt the team too much. Once Myers/Morin/Sanheim and possibility a new number 1 to pair with Provy come on then Hagg should drop down and fill in where he belongs and when that comes I am sure people will not hate on him as much because that is the role he needs to be in.

 

[Striiker]

You and LOD had similar posts but decided to quote yours since its broken into points where I can talk about each one.

1) You are correct that currently, he does struggle offensively. He makes the "safe pass" which I know many here do not like (which usually includes passing to Ghost to pass it out). I personally don't see that as a negative. If he believes that Ghost can make a better play with it, then so be it. I do wonder where the skills offensively went missing. He had the talent when he was drafted to play more offensively (including WJC PP time). Not saying he doesn't need to improve here, but a player Like Gudas (other than his shot) has shown that you don't need to be a Sanhiem/Ghost offensively to be an NHL defender. Especially a 5/6 defender.

2) Partially agree, but I don't think it 100% is. While some do, one can frequently see him being compared to Morin & Sanhiem. This started with his draft year where Morin vs. Hagg was constant (with many thinking Hagg should have been drafted over Morin, which obviously shouldnt have been but has been a major problem with many Morin fans)

3) Fair points but can we really say his mental problems are that much different then the mental lapses that happen for Ghost/Sanhiem defensively? Realistically, other than maybe Provorov who I have seen some more mistakes this season, can we really state with confidence that mental passivity doesn't happen amongst our other players? Like truely, can we say his mental passiveness is that much more than when Sanheim or Ghost lose their players defensively, which does still happen as they are learning still? Obviously they are on another level on other facets of the game, especially offensively, but they still have their struggles. For physical passiveness, I truely don't see it as bad as others I guess. Not to say hits is the greatest stat to use in this case, but a person that is 3rd in the league in hits has to be somewhat active defensively. I am going to watch how Hagg handles zone entries more next game. That is MacD's biggest problem, and why he is considered a huge detriment to the team. I never noticed this problem with Hagg but it could be there.

4) I understand and he still has his problems of course. That being said, I have watched him since his Sweden days, and more so while he was in the AHL. In the AHL, I have watched about 50% Phantoms games a season since I have many relatives in the Allentown area. I go to about 10-15 games a season personally. While he didnt improve in some areas, I definitely saw progression in his play over the years. The last half of last season, I saw huge improvements in his game, especially after his mighty struggle to start the season (anyone that visits the prospect thread can remember that). Many people who have gone to those games have also stated this improvement fact. I know there were a few on here that didn't see that improvement but as many as there were not there were equally as much.

5) 100% agree. Zero argument from me there. I think the team's management of their players in general has been rather poor. Alot of the areas he needed work on I felt like the team didn't do enough to improve on it.


Obviously I know many don't agree, but I know from posts that there are quite a few that do. While advanced stats don't tell a whole story, I am huge in the statistics department due to my job. By doing some analysis's on his advanced stats play, it really does show the area's where he needs improvement and area's where he really does exceed at a high level. Again, I am not saying he is a top 4 defender, or that he has been great. He has had his struggles, but I definitely don't agree that he has shown no improvement, or his defensive play isn't an asset to the team. Of course, his offensive play might limit him in the future, but I don't see how he can't be a solid #5/6 playing 14 mins a night.

EDIT: Wanted to post this: 2017-18 Philadelphia Flyers Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Some cool breakdowns of our players using advanced stats.

EDIT2: Sorry for the long winded post. It has been a real long time since I have posted like that haha. Last time had to be when I debated with Jester, or had to go against Wolfy with OKT or DenverBoone with Carle. I really have been here for way to long lol. Over 10 years posting. Damn

1) The problem isn't that he passes it to Ghost to get it out of the zone, the problem is that he has to pass it to Ghost or it probably isn't getting out of the zone. Nobody is expecting him to be a wizard like Ghost or Sanheim, but every defensemen has to be at least average at moving the puck, no matter what their role. Unfortunately, Hagg is below average and that hurts the team.

2) He gets compared to Morin and Sanheim sometimes, but that shouldn't matter when the topic is about specific parts of his game. The problem is that, for example, I might be talking about how he's bad at moving the puck and then someone will chime in and say that I'm only being hard on him because he's not Morin. That makes no sense because Morin has absolutely nothing to do with that specific topic and it's just a way to dismiss a legitimate complaint.

3) Sanheim and Ghost making mistakes defensively is very different than Hagg. Defense is the ONLY thing Hagg is supposed to be offering this team, so if he's not even solid there then he has zero use. If Ghost or Sanheim mess up defensively then they still have their puck moving and offensive skills to fall back on. If you're going to be a one trick pony, you better be able to do that damn trick, otherwise you might as well be used to make glue.

4) I saw improvements when he was in Lehigh Valley too (I live there so it's easy to watch him). But I didn't see improvements in places he needs improvement the most, like puck moving. He's always done this awful "chuck it up the boards and hope for the best" garbage. We used to joke that it was Gordon making them do it, but it's just Hagg. Ghost and Sanheim don't have the same issue. Neither did Morin in his short time here.

And like you said in the last sentence, he could probably be a #6 and play 14 minutes per night without doing much harm, but the issue is that he isn't doing that right now. Honestly, he probably won't even be deserving of that spot soon because in the near future it's very likely we have 6 defensemen who are better than him who all need a spot (Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Gudas, Morin, Myers, and then possibly one of Hogberg/Friedman/some other draft pick).

 

[sa cyred]

Hagg is miles behind Gudas offensively

From a pure shot perspective? Sure. But unless everyone on here has completely changed on this and I’m losing my mind, his puck handling abilities along with his passing abilities (which he tries to play it safe) are nit very good. There are multiple times he has fumbled the puck at the blueline.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Gudas’ puck & passing skills are much better than Hagg’s.

 

[sa cyred]

@Striiker I won’t quote you to save people from scrolling through all the long posts lol. I do disagree with some points but let’s see how it continue store play out. I see a player who is pretty solid defensively and while needs to work on his passing, I’d rather him not turn it over at the moment and make the safe pass to Ghost then turn it over. Maybe even Hak tells him to let Ghost make the pass. Who knows.

On your last point, if we are fully expecting Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Morin, Myers to hit their potential, I don’t see many taking paycuts to keep costs low. Sometimes players that might not be on that level but come cheaper and can hold their own is needed. But hey if Friedman, Hog, etc comes in and outplays Hagg, perfect! I’ll reserve till that happens though. They all have their issues to work on also.

 

[Striiker]

@Striiker I won’t quote you to save people from scrolling through all the long posts lol. I do disagree with some points but let’s see how it continue store play out. I see a player who is pretty solid defensively and while needs to work on his passing, I’d rather him not turn it over at the moment and make the safe pass to Ghost then turn it over. Maybe even Hak tells him to let Ghost make the pass. Who knows.

On your last point, if we are fully expecting Provorov, Ghost, Sanheim, Morin, Myers to hit their potential, I don’t see many taking paycuts to keep costs low. Sometimes players that might not be on that level but come cheaper and can hold their own is needed. But hey if Friedman, Hog, etc comes in and outplays Hagg, perfect! I’ll reserve till that happens though. They all have their issues to work on also.

No, I don't mean to assume that all those guys will hit their potential.

I just think that, based on what we know about Hagg and what we know about their skillsets, it's not too big of a reach to think they could all end up better (even if they're not at their ceilings).

 

[Rebels57]

At least Haggs trade value is being boosted. Theres a lot of idiot GMs out there that would fall for his plus/minus, age, price combination.

 

[Magua]

At least Haggs trade value is being boosted. Theres a lot of idiot GMs out there that would fall for his plus/minus, age, price combination.

I’m sure there would be. Too bad our GM is one and no trade is coming.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I'm not quite sure where the hate for Hagg is coming from. From what I've seen he looks really good. I didn't even expect him to make the team this year.

He plays physical, and is definsively sound.
I think he has lots of room to grow offensively. But again, it's only his first year. I think he could develop into a smaller version of Coburn.

What do you consider being defensively sound? He rarely holds the line, he can neutralize players along the walls but doesn't normally outright win puck battles, doesn't block a lot of shots, doesn't have an particularly active stick. Also being able to retrieve the puck and transition to offensive is now part of the defensive game and he seriously lacks in that area.

Also there is little reason to think he will improve offensively. As many posters who rotinely watched him at younger ages have pointed out it is a weak spot in his game. He is built in the same mold as Grossman, Schenn and players of their ilk. They never developed offensive ability after lacking it at lower levels.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

This physical, Grossman build and other crap has no business in today's hockey. I sure am glad that he can win board battles and so on, but best hagg has played was when instead of finishing/chasing hits he would recognize the play has already moved on and return into position not leaving holes in defensive coverage. Still that impacts game only in one zone.

However I'm perfectly fine with hagg, he is exactly type of player you want as your 7th d. Solid defense that won't cause much trouble on his own and his lack of scoring makes him dirt cheap for duration of his rfa years. If he develops into anything more that's just gravy, after all 22 year old gudas wasn't the player he is right now.

 

[Rebels57]

This physical, Grossman build and other crap has no business in today's hockey. I sure am glad that he can win board battles and so on, but best hagg has played was when instead of finishing/chasing hits he would recognize the play has already moved on and return into position not leaving holes in defensive coverage. Still that impacts game only in one zone.

However I'm perfectly fine with hagg, he is exactly type of player you want as your 7th d. Solid defense that won't cause much trouble on his own and his lack of scoring makes him dirt cheap for duration of his rfa years. If he develops into anything more that's just gravy, after all 22 year old gudas wasn't the player he is right now.

Unfortunately he's a top 4 D for us instead of 6/7

 

[Striiker]

The only reason people think he's "safe" or "reliable" or "sound" or "steady" defensively is because a) the idiot coach and GM said so, and b) he's horrible at puck moving and scoring so it's automatically assumed that he must be good defensively.

Everyone who sucks offensively is good defensively, everyone who's good offensively sucks defensively. Those reputations are set in stone.

 

[dats81]

The only reason people think he's "safe" or "reliable" or "sound" or "steady" defensively is because a) the idiot coach and GM said so, and b) he's horrible at puck moving and scoring so it's automatically assumed that he must be good defensively.

Everyone who sucks offensively is good defensively, everyone who's good offensively sucks defensively. Those reputations are set in stone.

Hägg isn't flashy but his numbers in terms of blocks, hits and the controverse +/- are actually pretty good. And unlike Grossmann or L. Schenn he is at least an average skater.
If that's no indication of him being some good defensively, maybe you can help us out with a better definition?

 

[Magua]

I think people can go overboard with Hagg in certain criticisms. He does do some things well! It's not entirely fiction that he's good defensively, in the most basic sense. He's solid at boards play, good at winning battles down low, stripping guys of pucks, clearing the front to minimize big chances, consistent effort level.

The issue is everything else. And with so much of defense today being preventive instead of reactive, he prevents close to nothing in other areas of the ice: pinches, cycling, gaps as weak as Mac's, passing ability to transition play. And so he constantly is in positions to do what he does best: playing below his own dots without the puck. That he is respectable at, like Schultz and so forth. But to win games, to win shifts, you need more.

I do think he's worse of a skater than some people think because he never skates and is always (waaaay) back. Watch him in the rare footrace, and he has a quite ugly, rigid stride, though he's sleeker than Grossmann and Schenn obviously.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I think the part that gets underrated is that terrible errors are what, over the long haul, cost you, because there aren't a lot of grade A scoring chances without brutal errors anymore.
Sanheim, as he showed tonight, is still far more given to the brutal error than Hagg, & he's only produced one more point!
I think Sanheim will end up the better player, but there's too much glossing over of the fatal errors vs. likelihood of scoring of certain players.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Focusing on whether any player is good defensively (or offensively) is really not how you want to evaluate NHL players. Just focus on overall effectiveness. It doesn't matter how you get there, as long as it's repeatable.

Now the catch with that is that a passive, purely defensive style has a much, much higher bar of quality it has to reach to get to consistent production (and I am not speaking to points here).

 

[dats81]

What really stings is that on the one hand many fans take it as a given that Sanheim will overcome his defensice flaws and turn into a complete player but on the other hand it is ruled out that Hägg will ever improve offensively.

 

[Striiker]

Hägg isn't flashy but his numbers in terms of blocks, hits and the controverse +/- are actually pretty good. And unlike Grossmann or L. Schenn he is at least an average skater.
If that's no indication of him being some good defensively, maybe you can help us out with a better definition?

None of those things have anything to do with being good defensively.

MacDonald gets a lot of blocks, is he good defensively? Nope.

Rinaldo had a lot of hits, is he good defensively? Nope.

And +/- isn't (or at least shouldn't be) an individual player stat so it's completely useless when talking about individuals. If a player can do everything perfect, make zero mistakes, do exactly what he should do, but then a teammate f***s up and causes a goal, which then is negatively reflected in the perfect players +/-, then clearly the stat has no value.

Then, of course, the opposite is true too. A player could be a complete idiot who does everything wrong, but is then saved by teammates. Then those teammates might score a goal, which has nothing to do with him, and it would be positively reflected in his +/-. Again proving it to be a meaningless number. Hagg has the best +/- on the defense... and I don't think anyone is dumb enough to think he's our best defensemen. Pretty easily proves it isn't a good representation of a players ability or impact.

What being good defensively actually involves is keeping the opponent out of a position to score, recovering the puck (or helping your teammates to do so), and then successfully getting it out of your zone. That's how you stop the opponent from scoring.

There's plenty of different ways to actually accomplish this too. For example, both Provorov and Ghost do it, but in very different styles. Hagg doesn't. He helps the opponent stay in the zone for as long as possible by being incapable of moving the puck. That's a huge negative and an opponent bouncing puck off his leg once in an while or bumping into an opponent who just passed the puck doesn't make up for that.

 

[Striiker]

What really stings is that on the one hand many fans take it as a given that Sanheim will overcome his defensice flaws and turn into a complete player but on the other hand it is ruled out that Hägg will ever improve offensively.

One player has proved to be good defensively at lower levels, once he gets comfortable with the new level of play in a new environment.

The other hasn't shown any offensive ability for years, even against easier competition.

Seem pretty obvious which one is more likely to fix their flaws. I have no idea why people keep acting like both are equally likely but we're being unreasonable for saying one can do it and the other can't.

It's like saying "How can you say you expect it to snow in Pennsylvania but then you've ruled out the possibility of snow in the middle of the desert?!?".... because it's two completely different situations.

On one hand, were expecting to see something we've already seen before. On the other, we don't expect to suddenly see something that hasn't been seen in a very long time.

 

[hatcher]

Hagg is solid and every coach would want him right now. Only gonna get better too. Playoffs are about defence first as pens have showed. Lots of chip outs,blocked shots and everyone's favorite on this board f***ing contact with authority.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

As the Pens showed?
What you just described is good transition from defense to offense; not good defense.

Which is something I find Robert to be especially terrible at.