Blue Jays Discussion: RIP Roy Halladay (1977-2017)

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Diamond Joe Quimby

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Aug 14, 2010
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I would be all for bringing McGowan back. He was actually a target of mine both in the offseason and the deadline. He was very good for Miami up until the final month or two I believe.

I don't know how much McGowan has left in the tank. It would be a good story though.

For relief targets, I've identified Brandon Mauer and Blake Wood as targets I'd go after. Then Joakim Soria on the cheap, and Wily Peralta.
 

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
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Do we need to spend more money on right handed relievers?

Unless we make a trade we have Osuna, Tepera, Barnes, and Leone. Got to think at least two spots go to a lefty; one is Loup and the other is likely an FA or trade. That is 6 spots of 7 and that doesnt include guys like Ramirez, Biagini, and Rowley. Potentially have Santos and Koehler as well.

I like Morrow but with the depth in the pen and the high volatility of relief pitching is worth offering Morrow at least 6M per on a 2-3 year deal? I save my money for a lefty in the pen.
 

ToneDog

56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Jun 11, 2017
23,963
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Richmond Hill, ON
Do we need to spend more money on right handed relievers?

Unless we make a trade we have Osuna, Tepera, Barnes, and Leone. Got to think at least two spots go to a lefty; one is Loup and the other is likely an FA or trade. That is 6 spots of 7 and that doesnt include guys like Ramirez, Biagini, and Rowley. Potentially have Santos and Koehler as well.

I like Morrow but with the depth in the pen and the high volatility of relief pitching is worth offering Morrow at least 6M per on a 2-3 year deal? I save my money for a lefty in the pen.

You also have Biagini. I don't think he will be a starter next year.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
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Do we need to spend more money on right handed relievers?

Unless we make a trade we have Osuna, Tepera, Barnes, and Leone. Got to think at least two spots go to a lefty; one is Loup and the other is likely an FA or trade. That is 6 spots of 7 and that doesnt include guys like Ramirez, Biagini, and Rowley. Potentially have Santos and Koehler as well.

I like Morrow but with the depth in the pen and the high volatility of relief pitching is worth offering Morrow at least 6M per on a 2-3 year deal? I save my money for a lefty in the pen.

Koehler doesn't make it anywhere near my major league roster. Santos\Ramirez begin the year in AAA. Biagini and Rowley are competing for the #5 starter role, and if they don't win it, are starting in the Triple-A rotation as depth. I go:

LR) Barnes
MR) Loup
MR) Tepera
MR) Wood
SU) Leone
SU) Mauer
CL) Osuna

One loogy, a bunch of gas. Depth in Triple-A guarding against at least one of Tepera\Barnes\Leone taking a step back. An additional loogy can be acquired at the deadline if the team is in contention. That's just me though.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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I dont think a lot of people had Tepera, Barnes and/or Leone to start the season with the Jays and staying for pretty much the entire season - maybe Barnes is the only exception. So based on that i wouldnt count Santos and Ramirez out so soon, especially Ramirez. Plus this FO seems to have an eye for pen arms... first Biagini and then Leone last year. They might have a spot for a waiver claim or a rule 5 draftee.

I dont mind adding an arm one a 1 year deal like we did with Smith and Howell. Low risk high reward but i rather use that money on building more lefty depth as i think our righty depth is sufficient.
 

Diamond Joe Quimby

A$AP Joffrey
Aug 14, 2010
13,547
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Washington, DC
I dont think a lot of people had Tepera, Barnes and/or Leone to start the season with the Jays and staying for pretty much the entire season - maybe Barnes is the only exception. So based on that i wouldnt count Santos and Ramirez out so soon, especially Ramirez. Plus this FO seems to have an eye for pen arms... first Biagini and then Leone last year. They might have a spot for a waiver claim or a rule 5 draftee.

I dont mind adding an arm one a 1 year deal like we did with Smith and Howell. Low risk high reward but i rather use that money on building more lefty depth as i think our righty depth is sufficient.

I'm not counting anyone out, I'm simply adding arms (who are not expensive yet as they remain in ~Arb-2 IIRC with sub-par surface statistics) to a group that will likely see one or two take a step back and\or get injured. If Ramirez or Santos win a job, then perfect. Good problem to have.
 

Discoverer

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
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Koehler doesn't make it anywhere near my major league roster. Santos\Ramirez begin the year in AAA. Biagini and Rowley are competing for the #5 starter role, and if they don't win it, are starting in the Triple-A rotation as depth. I go:

LR) Barnes
MR) Loup
MR) Tepera
MR) Wood
SU) Leone
SU) Mauer
CL) Osuna

One loogy, a bunch of gas. Depth in Triple-A guarding against at least one of Tepera\Barnes\Leone taking a step back. An additional loogy can be acquired at the deadline if the team is in contention. That's just me though.

It would be a fun experiment, but $23 million is a little too much money to risk in converting a 34-year-old former-catcher-turned-first-baseman into a reliever.
 
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BlueForever75

Registered User
Oct 4, 2017
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I agree spending money on the bullpen is wasted budget money.

We need to solidify our lineup and depth for starters before we spend a penny on any reliever. I am in the group of people that believe relievers are failed starters. Very rare that a reliever is drafted as a reliever. To me if you don't have enough starters in your system that at one point or another will fail at starting and cant turn them into a reliever.... your system is flawed.
 

Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
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I agree spending money on the bullpen is wasted budget money.

I disagree. In fact, for a team like the Jays, the BP is one of the best areas to spend big money on short-term Joe Smith-like deals.

Look at it from an asset maximization perspective. At the trade deadline there will be a dozen teams shopping for relievers, and they will command a premium return.

Note, for instance, that Houston gave up more for Liriano to be a loogy for them for a couple of months than Arizona did for a star outfielder in JD Martinez this past deadline.

My priorities this off-season would be 1) 4/5th starter 2) a quality middle infielder 3) 2-3 strong BP arms. If we have any loose change after that and/or are able to move Morales (and DH Pearce), then we'll also need an extra OF, but my priority would be on the first 3 areas.
 
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BlueForever75

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Oct 4, 2017
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I disagree. In fact, for a team like the Jays, the BP is one of the best areas to spend big money on short-term Joe Smith-like deals.

Look at it from an asset maximization perspective. At the trade deadline there will be a dozen teams shopping for relievers, and they will command a premium return.

Note, for instance, that Houston gave up more for Liriano to be a loogy for them for a couple of months than Arizona did for a star outfielder in JD Martinez this past deadline.

My priorities this off-season would be 1) 4/5th starter 2) a quality middle infielder 3) 2-3 strong BP arms. If we have any loose change after that and/or are able to move Morales (and DH Pearce), then we'll also need an extra OF, but my priority would be on the first 3 areas.

Relievers are failed starters. Other then 10 whopping blown saves by Osuna our bullpen held its own. Outpitched our starters at points this season, and them alone kept us in many games. Our bullpen if it allows 5 blown saves instead of 14 with everyone combined is a 9 game swing. So how is our bullpen a need?

I understand what you are saying in regards to the trade deadline and value at that time. It does help to build the system. But if our relievers are good, they will be just as valuable to other teams if we become sellers. Money is limited and there are holes to fill. My priorities are and should be:

1) Sign a power bat corner OF
2) Sign a 4/5th starter
3) Sign a 5/6th starter
4) Trade Morales
5) Sign\Trade for a utility type OF/Infielder

We need to replace the power lacking this past season in the OF. There are such bats available. Depth in the rotation is always welcomed to assist in case of injuries. The trading of Morales goes with what Shatkins have been saying. More flexibility, speed and youth. You can DH anyone in our lineup (Travis, Donaldson, Tulo, Smoak, Pierce, Martin) on their off days. We need to replace Barney with a better player. One that can play infield and outfield with a better bat and adequate D.

This is what I would focus on.
 

TF97

Registered User
Jul 4, 2010
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Halifax, NS
Relievers are failed starters. Other then 10 whopping blown saves by Osuna our bullpen held its own. Outpitched our starters at points this season, and them alone kept us in many games. Our bullpen if it allows 5 blown saves instead of 14 with everyone combined is a 9 game swing. So how is our bullpen a need?

I understand what you are saying in regards to the trade deadline and value at that time. It does help to build the system. But if our relievers are good, they will be just as valuable to other teams if we become sellers. Money is limited and there are holes to fill. My priorities are and should be:

1) Sign a power bat corner OF
2) Sign a 4/5th starter
3) Sign a 5/6th starter
4) Trade Morales
5) Sign\Trade for a utility type OF/Infielder

We need to replace the power lacking this past season in the OF. There are such bats available. Depth in the rotation is always welcomed to assist in case of injuries. The trading of Morales goes with what Shatkins have been saying. More flexibility, speed and youth. You can DH anyone in our lineup (Travis, Donaldson, Tulo, Smoak, Pierce, Martin) on their off days. We need to replace Barney with a better player. One that can play infield and outfield with a better bat and adequate D.

This is what I would focus on.
The problem though is that there are not many corner outfield power bats on the market. All that is out there is essentially Upton (if he opts out), Bruce, Martinez, and CarGo. I might go the trade route for a corner outfielder. One name I would look into is Joc Pederson. Randal Grichuk is another, but I'm not as high on him as I was a few years back.

For Morales, I don't see any team taking his entire contract without having a prospect being sent their way, or having the Blue Jays eat a significant portion of the deal. Even then, I don't see many teams being interested in him. I have said this for a few months though, one team that I believe might have interest is Kansas City.
 

Garlando

Registered User
May 5, 2014
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237
Kingston, Ontario
Some late night thoughts! Here are some names I am interested in both FA and trades:

Howie Kendrick – 2B/LF – Regression candidate based on his BAPIP, but offers quality contact skills with a bit of speed and power, and can play quality defense at 2nd and left. Free agent

Stephen Drew – SS/2B – Still an above average defender despite all the injuries, and is a year removed from a 124 wRC+. Free Agent

Ildemaro Vargas – SS/2B/3B/OF – Diamondbacks AAA player who is blocked by Brandon Drury, Ketel Marte, Chris Owings, and Nick Ahmed. Great contact skills (7.5 K%) with a good approach (5.6 BB%), also showing decent power (.150 iso) and speed (21 SBs against 4 SBs the last two years) at AAA this year, good for a 111 wRC+. All that with above average defensive ratings gives him the look of a guy who can contribute on both sides of the ball and is ready for the majors and because he’s unproven at the MLB level and 26, won’t have a big acquisition cost. He’s been a frequent member of the Fangraphs Fringe Five columns. Someone will grab him for a major league role from the D-backs, hope the Jays are in on him.

Scott Schebler – Reds OFer who is being pushed by Jesse Winker. 30 HRs this year with a .233/.307/.484 line, good for a 100 wRC+. A .248 BAPIP is a career low and gives hope that with better luck, a few more hits fall in and he becomes more of a .250/.330 guy, which with his power is very valuable. A 39.4 Hard hit% is pretty nice too when combined with a near 40% flyball rate, shows the power is for real. He had weird splits last year, hitting for better contact against lefties (he’s a lefty hitter) despite a poor approach (just a 0.9 BB% against lefties last year) while hitting righties for power but having BAPIP problems (.219 BAPIP against righties). Going back to his prospect days, he’s been a guy that has crushed righties so I think he would be a good target to complement Steve Pearce that is capable of starting.

Nick Markakis – RF – Braves will likely be looking to make some room for teenage wonder Ronald Acuna who ripped through the minors this year including AAA. Markakis could be probably be had I would think and can get on base with good contact skills and approach. Matt Kemp is the guy they would likely want to move, but his lack of defense and lack of patience made him a negative WAR player and I can’t imagine that getting better putting him on turf as he ages.

Lonnie Chisenhall – 3B/Corner OF – Indians bat who took big strides this year in the power department in part-time duty, very quietly put together a 129 wRC+. 9.4 BB% and 20.9 K% with a .233 ISO. Could be a casualty of increased payroll.

Yandy Diaz – 3B/2B/LF – Speaking of the Indians, another UTIL player in their system that is of interest. He raked at AAA with a .350/.454/.460 line with a .110 ISO, good for a 162 wRC+. Quality defender at multiple positions and increased power may come with tweaks to add loft to his swing. He’s ready for the majors, just needs a place to play.

Joc Pederson – LAD OFer – Power/Speed player who has platoon issues but has shown the ability to mash righties in the past and could be due for a BAPIP correction. His K rate fell to a career-best 21.4%, but the BAPIP also fell to a career-low .241. Makes him an upside bet. Good news is he’s continued to hit for power (.194 ISO last year) and would be an above average corner outfielder defensively likely.

Justin Upton and Jay Bruce – two of the better Corner OF Free agents (Upton would have to opt out and I’m not sure he will), both are proven and could return decent value. If the team is willing to spend the money, they could be cheaper options than JD Martinez that return fairly similar value. Upton > Bruce to me.

Hector Santiago – SP – Injuries limited him this year, but he’s been a half decent #5 starter the previous 3 years with innings eating ability. Has shown an ability to limit HRs in the past which would be nice in the AL East, and if he can return to form where he was around 8 K/9, he could be a nice value on a fairly cheap deal. Free Agent

Tyler Chatwood – SP- Groundball pitcher who hasn’t been too bad with Coors Field as his home diamond. Despite not missing a ton of bats, he keeps the ball on the ground and eats innings. Still just 27. Probably my top SP FA target. FIP and xFIP support a quality #4-5 SP profile. Free Agent.

Tyson Ross – has had injury issues the last 2 years, but he was a high-end starter for the Padres for 3 years, highlighted by a 4.3 WAR year in 2015. Could be a good reclamation project on the cheap, still just 30. Free Agent.

Josh Tomlin – SP – Control SP who has played for the Indians for a while, Shapiro and Atkins would be familiar with him. HR problems make him a scary bet in the AL East, but his FIP and xFIP are pretty good and he would be a solid #4-5 type to fill out the rotation. Free Agent

Luke Gregerson – RP – Been a solid reliever for the Padres and Astros his whole career, had a jump in HR rate this year but everything else is still very strong under the hood so perhaps this is an aberration. Good buy-low opportunity with closer experience. Free Agent

Steve Cishek – RP – Funky Righty who has been very solid his whole career despite a couple of rocky stretches. A former closer in Miami who hasn’t closed in over a year and a half. Could be another high leverage guy that gives them a different look than most righties. Free Agent.

Jorge De La Rosa – RP – Lefty who was a former SP for the Rockies, very quietly moved to the bullpen and despite the meh numbers overall, feel he could be a great value as a veteran LOOGY. He was especially good against lefties, limiting them to a .192/.253/.292 line with 20 K’s in 20 innings. He wasn’t great against Righties, but as a former SP for years, he should have some ability to get outs against them if need be. 37 and likely would come fairly cheap and on a 1 year deal. Good no risk signing to me. Free Agent.
 
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Kurtz

Registered User
Jul 17, 2005
10,108
6,985
Wow, umping/replays just hit a new low with that Granderson overturned "foul tip".
 

TF97

Registered User
Jul 4, 2010
12,291
478
Halifax, NS
Some late night thoughts! Here are some names I am interested in both FA and trades:

Howie Kendrick – 2B/LF – Regression candidate based on his BAPIP, but offers quality contact skills with a bit of speed and power, and can play quality defense at 2nd and left. Free agent

Stephen Drew – SS/2B – Still an above average defender despite all the injuries, and is a year removed from a 124 wRC+. Free Agent

Ildemaro Vargas – SS/2B/3B/OF – Diamondbacks AAA player who is blocked by Brandon Drury, Ketel Marte, Chris Owings, and Nick Ahmed. Great contact skills (7.5 K%) with a good approach (5.6 BB%), also showing decent power (.150 iso) and speed (21 SBs against 4 SBs the last two years) at AAA this year, good for a 111 wRC+. All that with above average defensive ratings gives him the look of a guy who can contribute on both sides of the ball and is ready for the majors and because he’s unproven at the MLB level and 26, won’t have a big acquisition cost. He’s been a frequent member of the Fangraphs Fringe Five columns. Someone will grab him for a major league role from the D-backs, hope the Jays are in on him.

Scott Schebler – Reds OFer who is being pushed by Jesse Winker. 30 HRs this year with a .233/.307/.484 line, good for a 100 wRC+. A .248 BAPIP is a career low and gives hope that with better luck, a few more hits fall in and he becomes more of a .250/.330 guy, which with his power is very valuable. A 39.4 Hard hit% is pretty nice too when combined with a near 40% flyball rate, shows the power is for real. He had weird splits last year, hitting for better contact against lefties (he’s a lefty hitter) despite a poor approach (just a 0.9 BB% against lefties last year) while hitting righties for power but having BAPIP problems (.219 BAPIP against righties). Going back to his prospect days, he’s been a guy that has crushed righties so I think he would be a good target to complement Steve Pearce that is capable of starting.

Nick Markakis – RF – Braves will likely be looking to make some room for teenage wonder Ronald Acuna who ripped through the minors this year including AAA. Markakis could be probably be had I would think and can get on base with good contact skills and approach. Matt Kemp is the guy they would likely want to move, but his lack of defense and lack of patience made him a negative WAR player and I can’t imagine that getting better putting him on turf as he ages.

Lonnie Chisenhall – 3B/Corner OF – Indians bat who took big strides this year in the power department in part-time duty, very quietly put together a 129 wRC+. 9.4 BB% and 20.9 K% with a .233 ISO. Could be a casualty of increased payroll.

Yandy Diaz – 3B/2B/LF – Speaking of the Indians, another UTIL player in their system that is of interest. He raked at AAA with a .350/.454/.460 line with a .110 ISO, good for a 162 wRC+. Quality defender at multiple positions and increased power may come with tweaks to add loft to his swing. He’s ready for the majors, just needs a place to play.

Joc Pederson – LAD OFer – Power/Speed player who has platoon issues but has shown the ability to mash righties in the past and could be due for a BAPIP correction. His K rate fell to a career-best 21.4%, but the BAPIP also fell to a career-low .241. Makes him an upside bet. Good news is he’s continued to hit for power (.194 ISO last year) and would be an above average corner outfielder defensively likely.

Justin Upton and Jay Bruce – two of the better Corner OF Free agents (Upton would have to opt out and I’m not sure he will), both are proven and could return decent value. If the team is willing to spend the money, they could be cheaper options than JD Martinez that return fairly similar value. Upton > Bruce to me.

Hector Santiago – SP – Injuries limited him this year, but he’s been a half decent #5 starter the previous 3 years with innings eating ability. Has shown an ability to limit HRs in the past which would be nice in the AL East, and if he can return to form where he was around 8 K/9, he could be a nice value on a fairly cheap deal. Free Agent

Tyler Chatwood – SP- Groundball pitcher who hasn’t been too bad with Coors Field as his home diamond. Despite not missing a ton of bats, he keeps the ball on the ground and eats innings. Still just 27. Probably my top SP FA target. FIP and xFIP support a quality #4-5 SP profile. Free Agent.

Tyson Ross – has had injury issues the last 2 years, but he was a high-end starter for the Padres for 3 years, highlighted by a 4.3 WAR year in 2015. Could be a good reclamation project on the cheap, still just 30. Free Agent.

Josh Tomlin – SP – Control SP who has played for the Indians for a while, Shapiro and Atkins would be familiar with him. HR problems make him a scary bet in the AL East, but his FIP and xFIP are pretty good and he would be a solid #4-5 type to fill out the rotation. Free Agent

Luke Gregerson – RP – Been a solid reliever for the Padres and Astros his whole career, had a jump in HR rate this year but everything else is still very strong under the hood so perhaps this is an aberration. Good buy-low opportunity with closer experience. Free Agent

Steve Cishek – RP – Funky Righty who has been very solid his whole career despite a couple of rocky stretches. A former closer in Miami who hasn’t closed in over a year and a half. Could be another high leverage guy that gives them a different look than most righties. Free Agent.

Jorge De La Rosa – RP – Lefty who was a former SP for the Rockies, very quietly moved to the bullpen and despite the meh numbers overall, feel he could be a great value as a veteran LOOGY. He was especially good against lefties, limiting them to a .192/.253/.292 line with 20 K’s in 20 innings. He wasn’t great against Righties, but as a former SP for years, he should have some ability to get outs against them if need be. 37 and likely would come fairly cheap and on a 1 year deal. Good no risk signing to me. Free Agent.
I am with you on most of these players. Mostly Pederson, Tomlin, Chatwood, and Chisenhall. Drew was another target of mine for the backup infielder role. Another reliever that I would look into is Justin Grimm. I have been saying for years that Zach Phillips might be worthy of a look as a left handed reliever on a MLC, he spent the last season between the Mexican league and the Cardinals AAA team.
 

canucksfan

Registered User
Mar 16, 2002
43,998
9,597
British Columbia
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25 years ago today - the biggest HR in Blue Jay history



I still thinkAlomar's home run is the biggest HR in Jays history. Jays had trouble in the playoffs. They had trouble against the A's. They came back that game. Alomar against one of the best closers in the game hits a huge two run homerun.

Just seemed to put that team over the top.
 

phillipmike

Registered User
Oct 27, 2009
12,524
8,334
Of course, sometimes finding value in players that didn’t quite pan out for other organizations can deliver huge dividends. That has been the case for the Yankees and Aaron Hicks, as Joel Sherman of the New York Post writes. Indeed, he seems now to have displaced Jacoby Ellsbury in center — so much so that Sherman expects the Yanks to “tell teams in the offseason to make their best offer on the veteran.” The article goes on to discuss what kind of trade situations might make sense for Ellsbury, who does have quite a bit of salary left to go as well as no-trade protection.

------

Lol make your "best offer" on declining 35 year old centrefielder with 3 years left on his deal at 69M? If they find someone that is willing then we should sucker that team into take Tulo's deal.
 
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