Right Now, Greatest Era for USA Hockey???

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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On paper, the USA is as good as anyone. Let's see if they can get over their mental block in major tournaments. It's a shame this year's Olympics doesn't showcase NHL talent.

The States are catching up for sure but I wouldnt say theyre level with Canada yet either. They have a strong claim to number 2 with Sweden. Although the States high end talent would obviously compete with Canada and possibly win some games in a couple years its still Canada. For every Eichel and Matthews there is still a McDavid or MacKinnon and so on.
 

Thebesthockey

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Aug 6, 2013
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its sumple the USA development system
USHS/JR/collegeD1 provides for the majority of players to develop anywhere from ages 14-19/20
allowing for much more new blood coming out of " nowhere"

in canada if player has not made chl at 17 its pretty much over and tossed out or at minimum the road ahead is very bleak and tagged by depressing junior leagues with no futur aspirations

put my money on USA puttung in more players into professional ranks
 

canuck2010

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Dec 21, 2010
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its sumple the USA development system
USHS/JR/collegeD1 provides for the majority of players to develop anywhere from ages 14-19/20
allowing for much more new blood coming out of " nowhere"

in canada if player has not made chl at 17 its pretty much over and tossed out or at minimum the road ahead is very bleak and tagged by depressing junior leagues with no futur aspirations

put my money on USA puttung in more players into professional ranks

Not saying that late bloomers don't exist but playing 4 years of NCAA hockey doesn't necessarily qualify you to be a better player or anything more than an AHL player even.
 

smokingwriter

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Apr 21, 2018
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AmericanScheme is right:

Murica has the greatest collection of talent in the history of the sport. Watching their U18s devastate all comers in Russia is an eye-opening experience; it was exhilarating how they danced around the Swedes. I think little jack hughes is the greatest talent in the history of the sport, though maybe turcotte or Wahlstrom will become the greatest after him. I think Eichel is greater than McDavid and the only reason he hasn't scored 200 points yet is because he doesn't want to. And Auston Matthews has carried Toronto on his back, while showing uncannily large nostrils for the net.

Johnny Gaudreau is the most extraordinary genius the sport has ever seen, too. Courage, grit, tenacity, guiding his team to the playoffs with a steely resolve.

Am I leaving anyone out?

Oh yeah: Guentzel made Crosby; Crosby was nothing until Guentzel came along. I don't even know who Syndey (sp) Crosby is, but everyone knows who he is now, because he plays with Jake.

Sorry if I'm out of breath; I was breathing too heavily.
 
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Patrik Barkov

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Jun 25, 2016
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AmericanScheme is right:

Murica has the greatest collection of talent in the history of the sport. Watching their U18s devastate all comers in Russia is an eye-opening experience; it was exhilarating how they danced around the Swedes. I think little jack hughes is the greatest talent in the history of the sport, though maybe turcotte or Wahlstrom will become the greatest after him. I think Eichel is greater than McDavid and the only reason he hasn't scored 200 points yet is because he doesn't want to. And Auston Matthews has carried Toronto on his back, while showing uncannily large nostrils for the net.

Johnny Gaudreau is the most extraordinary genius the sport has ever seen, too. Courage, grit, tenacity, guiding his team to the playoffs with a steely resolve.

Am I leaving anyone out?

Oh yeah: Guentzel made Crosby; Crosby was nothing until Guentzel came along. I don't even know who Syndey (sp) Crosby is, but everyone knows who he is now, because he plays with Jake.

Sorry if I'm out of breath; I was breathing too heavily.
Great jab at the OP. Didn't make you look like a fool at all.
 

Boxscore

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The USA hockey program has never put out this much high-end talent. So, in terms of development, high draft positions, and early accomplishments in the NHL, USA players have never been stronger. There are also more rinks in the States than ever, and leagues of every level are exploding.

All of this said, in order for this era to be the greatest for USA hockey, the players have to win together vs. big opponents in big tournaments (World Cup, Olympics, etc.)

In 1980, a group of USA college kids beat the greatest hockey power in the world - a team that the best NHL teams couldn't even beat. That truly is a miraculous feat that will likely never be duplicated. During the 1st World Cup of Hockey in 1996, USA defeated a powerhouse Canadian team on their home ice to win the tournament. These are two major accomplishments. In order for this era to be considered "greater" they need to win. Looking good on paper and stat sheets aren't going to cut it.

If Team USA could win some World Cups vs. McDavid, MacKinnon and Co., etc., then, yes, they will be put on a pedestal. Can't wait to see some of thee future match-ups.
 

Thebesthockey

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Aug 6, 2013
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Definately some good talent coming out of usa
i think its a combination of

usa model as opposed to canada whereas 16/17/18/19 yr olds can find a good level of competitive serious level allowing late bloomers to flourish
in canada if you havent made the chl 16/17 its pretty much over for the most part

the usndp surely helps and this in turn gets allot of attention and also a large amount of hype with it. Just look at u18 allot of players in other countries outshining and looking much better than usa players but they dont get the fafare

i think its just more attention than actual players if you look back at usa players yes maybe some more but many good usa players in nhl past 15/20 yrs
 

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Definately some good talent coming out of usa
i think its a combination of

usa model as opposed to canada whereas 16/17/18/19 yr olds can find a good level of competitive serious level allowing late bloomers to flourish
in canada if you havent made the chl 16/17 its pretty much over for the most part

the usndp surely helps and this in turn gets allot of attention and also a large amount of hype with it. Just look at u18 allot of players in other countries outshining and looking much better than usa players but they dont get the fafare

i think its just more attention than actual players if you look back at usa players yes maybe some more but many good usa players in nhl past 15/20 yrs

I also think this has something to do with the rapid expansion and development of the USA hockey program and the possible stagnation in Canada. Yes, Canada will likely always been the leader of young talent, but this is what I mean...

I've been going to Canada religiously since the early-90's for hockey trips. What I've noticed over the years is there has been a mentality shift in major Canadian cities like Montreal and Toronto when it comes to their thirst for hockey, especially among young people. I've observed this first-hand.

I'm not sure if it's due to parents wanting to protect their children from potential head trauma, finances, or evolution, but I've seen the passion for hockey decline while fan bases have increased for soccer, baseball, football and MMA.

I used to go to Montreal and Toronto and be able to talk hockey with anyone, randomly, for hours. Be it an old man in a burger shop, a female bartender, a group of guys at the table next to me. 10 out of 10 people were hockey die-hards. They knew the game inside out and were passionate about it, even the 20-somethings. However, since 2002-2004, it seems as if things changed. Over the last 10-15 years I've been extremely disappointed when engaging Canadians about hockey. Many of the bartenders have no clue, or don't care. The locals don't seem to care nearly as much. There isn't hockey stuff hanging all over the place. It's not in the air the way it used to be, even going back to the late-90s. Now, many of the bars are showing other sporting events. Local kids are wearing MBA hats and jackets, NFL jerseys. I don't see the NHL swag the way I used to a decade ago.

Meanwhile in the States, this has gone the opposite direction. Growing up in the Philly area, there used to be a handful of rinks in a possible driving area to get ice time. Now, each rink is a mega plex for 3-4 rinks inside of the facility... and they are all over the place in the Delaware Valley.
 
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AD1066

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Good times ahead. I don't think we've consistently produced this quality of players, especially centers and defensemen, ever before. Hopefully we can close the gap with Canada in the next 10-20 years.
 

Daneurism

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Nov 13, 2010
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Agreed that the US is excelling at development post 16 years old. U16/U18 levels are very competitive.

Though, the BCHL is becoming almost a fourth junior league for Canadians and is providing high competition with all of the foreign talent it's bringing in. Junior A leagues in Ontario/Quebec are so far behind in this regard. Ideally, Ontario should have a 10 team highly competitive sub OHL development league, not this unwieldy 20+team system.
 

Jez

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Jun 6, 2017
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Lots of great U25 US players in the NHL. A lot more on the way if we look at the next few drafts. Great results at the U17, U18 and U20 level. And USAH is doing a great work with the ADM and the NTDP. It's exciting.

But so far I'd say we are looking at the greatest fantasy era for USA Hockey. These players haven't won anything at the senior level. They haven't had the opportunity to do so for most of them. I call it fantasy era because when you start putting potential lineups together for the next olympic cycle it does look like an unprecedented amount of top pairing D, first line forwards, etc.

But this is USA Hockey we are talking about. Amazing at developing players absolutely horrendous at building rosters for international competitions. And terrible at preparing for them (prep games? heresy!). So I really do want to get excited but before they actually start putting together winning teams we can only be hopeful, not confident.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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I'm not under the illusion that we've passed Canada or anything like that, but I think we are starting to see that we can compete with Canada. Maybe not be exactly as good, but I think we are starting to get pretty close.

Lets take a five year draft window for example, and try telling me the US lineup is not better. 2015-2019 drafts.

USA:

M. Tkachuk-Eichel-Keller
Hughes-Matthews-Debrincat
Connor-Mittelstadt-Boeser
Farabee-Turcotte-Wise
Wahlstrom

Werenski-McAvoy
Hanifin-Carlo
Samuelsson-Fox
Wilde

Oettinger
Primeau
Knight

Canada:

Dubois-McDavid-Marner
Newhook-Barzal-Patrick
Debrusk-Strome-Konecny
Jost-Cirelli-Thomas
Veleno

Chychrun-Girard
Byram-Makar
Dermott-Dobson
Dunn

Hart
Point
DiPietro

And I did pick a 5 year draft window that helps out the USA, but Canada is no longer significantly better. We are getting better, and I think in the upcoming Olympic tournaments, if the NHL attends, the USA will be a real Gold Medal contender.
 
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Daneurism

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Those teams are very close, but it's a little disingenuous leaving off talents like Dach and Krebs in favour of Cirelli.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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Those teams are very close, but it's a little disingenuous leaving off talents like Dach and Krebs in favour of Cirelli.

You think I was trying to make the Canadian team seem worse?

That was for the fourth line, so the guidelines there should be slightly different for picking a team. Cirelli's also done very well for Tampa.
 
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Daneurism

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Ahhh ok. In that criteria, that's fine. Though if you're gonna name Wahlstrom as a 13th forward, might as well with Dach/Krebs
 

Dominance

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I'm not under the illusion that we've passed Canada or anything like that, but I think we are starting to see that we can compete with Canada. Maybe not be exactly as good, but I think we are starting to get pretty close.

Lets take a five year draft window for example, and try telling me the US lineup is not better. 2015-2019 drafts.

USA:

M. Tkachuk-Eichel-Keller
Hughes-Matthews-Debrincat
Connor-Mittelstadt-Boeser
Farabee-Turcotte-Wise
Wahlstrom

Werenski-McAvoy
Hanifin-Carlo
Samuelsson-Fox
Wilde

Oettinger
Primeau
Knight

Canada:

Dubois-McDavid-Marner
Newhook-Barzal-Patrick
Debrusk-Strome-Konecny
Jost-Vilardi*-Thomas
Glass

Chychrun-Girard
Byram-Makar
Dermott
-Dobson
Dunn

Hart
Point
DiPietro

And I did pick a 5 year draft window that helps out the USA, but Canada is no longer significantly better. We are getting better, and I think in the upcoming Olympic tournaments, if the NHL attends, the USA will be a real Gold Medal contender.
Thanks for compiling this; you’ve never been anything less than a quality poster from what I’ve seen, so i have faith that these are the strongest possible combinations (I made one edit). Just for fun, I bolded the player that I consider as significantly superior to their equivalent on the other team moving forward, and it worked out as “+4” for Canada; America is damn close, but this is me telling you that Canada’s lineup is still better. Especially considering the McDavid factor.
 
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S E P H

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Mar 5, 2010
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It won’t while the NHL keeps pumping all of its resources into growing the game in America.

Also the NTDP is just a great idea and system as a whole.
Ehhhh, America has more population and opportunity to grow the sport (while Canada is already at the top of the production in the world for hockey players) which contributes to more revenue for the NHL - they're a business and getting wealthier is an important model for businesses to conduct. If you want to blame something, blame the government for killing the Canadian dollar and not being horny enough.
 
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Dominance

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Ehhhh, America has more population and opportunity to grow the sport which contributes to more revenue for the NHL - they're a business and getting wealthier is an important model for businesses to conduct. If you want to blame something, blame your government for killing the Canadian dollar and not being horny enough.
That’s all true, Hockey Canada is a joke. My point was that there is a tangible reason for America’s improvement, and it isn’t that your talent itself somehow improved (I don’t see any of the current generation being looked back on as better than Hull, Modano, or Leetch, for instance) just as Canada’s dominance isn’t due to us magically being naturally better at hockey. The NHL’s efforts have simply allowed for more American kids to play the game by essentially subsidizing the costs involved, which is a good thing. It’s bullshit that the same isn’t being done at even close to the same scale in Canada, though. Contrary to what the all-American NHL Board of Governors might think, hockey equipment doesn’t grow on trees here. While the numbers of registered hockey players in America is exploding, the numbers of registered hockey players is stagnant or even dropping in Canada, depending on what source you look at. America’s ascension to the top of the hockey world is due simply to the fact that they are set to pass Canada as the nation with the most hockey players within the next couple of years (iihf.com puts Canada at 631000 registered hockey players - 442000 at the U20 level - and the US at 556000 registered hockey players - 322000 at the U20 level).
 
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S E P H

Cloud IX
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That’s all true, Hockey Canada is a joke. My point was that there is a tangible reason for America’s improvement, and it isn’t that your talent itself somehow improved (I don’t see any of the current generation being looked back on as better than Hull, Modano, or Leetch, for instance) just as Canada’s dominance isn’t due to us magically being naturally better at hockey. The NHL’s efforts have simply allowed for more American kids to play the game by essentially subsidizing the costs involved, which is a good thing. It’s bull**** that the same isn’t being done at even close to the same scale in Canada, though.

Contrary to what the all-American NHL Board of Governors might think, hockey equipment doesn’t grow on trees here. While the numbers of registered hockey players in America is exploding, the numbers of registered hockey players is stagnant or even dropping in Canada, depending on what source you look at. America’s ascension to the top of the hockey world is due simply to the fact that they are set to pass Canada as the nation with the most hockey players within the next couple of years (iihf.com puts Canada at 631000 registered hockey players - 442000 at the U20 level - and the US at 556000 registered hockey players - 322000 at the U20 level).
I'm not a USA fan for the record, I appreciate good players from all countries. I hear you about subsidizing costs, but is that due to the NHL or the political system between each country?

What I mean is that Canada like the USA has "try hockey for free" programs, but the marketing is almost silent in Canada since everyone knows the sport. When you're born in Canada you know about icons such as Howe, the Olympic team who won gold in Salt Lake, and Don Cherry. The sport doesn't have a grassroots problem even if the numbers are stagnate and dropping. I think Canadians are starting to realise that kids can explore other options besides just hockey. Some of the numbers are not telling either because even in Canada, soccer participates outnumber hockey kids, but there is no city in Great North which cares for soccer over hockey.

Try Hockey
Try Hockey Free! Saturday March 17 @ Killarney – Vancouver Female Hockey

Hockey equipment doesn't grow on trees, but I hear so many stories about Russian players who were very poor when they started hockey and rose to fame due to their talent - it's possible. The Stewart brothers and Simmonds story from ThePlayersTribune also shows that it's possible for the financially weak. There are way MORE companies in the game of hockey that you don't hear about...one is called All Black which make a pretty damn solid sticks for under 100 bucks.

All Black Hockey Sticks - Hockey Sticks Just Became Affordable

Their motto is "Make Hockey Affordable Again". The problem for Canada is a population problem and not caring enough for development, they've never had an issue developing superstars due to the amount of people who play hockey. There is a reason why I mention that Canada also have the most busts in the hockey world, it's a number game. USA can absolutely go the way as Canada where they're eventually starting producing amazing players simply because people come to realise that hockey is actually a cool sport as Canada has already figured out. Like Canada, USA will also produce a high number of busts, but as you mention their USNTDProgram is quite successful. Not sure it is as successful as the model which Sweden has for their hockey structure, but it is one of the best programs which could develop players from okay ones into solid and perhaps great ones. I don't think Canada has ever contemplated to this idea because they never considered their hockey program in a dire phase....hell they just produced McDavid which nobody in the world has been able to produce.

Hockey Canada has put all their coins in the CHL and market it as the best junior and development system in the world, thus not needing a program like USNTDP. The national program for America came from a necessity since the grassroots of the sport sucked (and continue to suck for half of the country), USHL was in its beginning stages where there were a million other junior leagues, and the NCAA was seen as a second rate development path except for a few programs such as Minnesota, Boston College, and North Dakota. Now though, there is a 180 degree flip on majority of these thoughts compared to a decade ago. More players are choosing the USHL, the USHL has grown into a viable league, the USNTDP is seen as one of the best development teams, and finally the NCAA is giving players a different path for development as we've seen with Makar - more time to conduct off-ice training. That doesn't have to do with anything about the NHL and more about hiring competent people in charge of development for USAH.

No one can say which is right or wrong because it comes down to the indiviudal player, but from what I've noticed is that the top talent still goes to the CHL, while more projected picks head to the NCAA. USA always had great potential, while Canada had already developed that potential and continues to maintain. What might eventually change the guard so to speak is that Canada didn't really value their prep leagues, schools, and programs during important development periods for kids as much as USA hockey has (there is reason why Canadians/Euros go to Shattuck St. Mary's for isntance). As well as, the number game I mentioned before where American athletes in places like California, Texas, and the Great Lakes might choose hockey over other sports like baseball, football, and basketball. Sort of the what the opposite is happening in Canada where you're seeing more players in the NBA than any other point of time (similar to baseball as well).

Then comes the population, as I said about Sweden and what we're currently seeing with Finland (which you could make the case is better than USA) that you don't need amazing numbers to produce great hockey players. However, if you don't have the numbers, you better as hell have a good development/senior/junior system where top players can play above their age group and long-term projects can find an ideal league for them. Canada is in a tricky situation where the leagues below the CHL such as Junior A, B, and C are filled with players wanting to standout for CHL scouts to play on an CHL team. They're not really for development except for two leagues which are the BCHL and OJHL - both are direct feeders for the NCAA. So they don't really have develop leagues for all kind of players, they only have one league for the top calibre talent in the CHL and one substantial Junior A league where NCAA scouts feast upon. Furthermore, you very rarely hear stories about players like Ryan Johansen who play half of the season in Junior C, Kelowna Rockets, and somehow get picked in the top 5 because they don't happen.

This differs to Sweden where you have a player playing J18 Division 1 one season and somehow is posting PPG numbers in J20 SuperElit the next. So there isn't enough oppositions in Canada because the CHL is too heavily linked in the psychological cognition of Canadians. If there are not enough development options, then eventually the number of the country's population comes into affect. Canada as of 2018 is still less than freckin' California. Canada is growing because as USA is with hockey, Canada has a ****ton of open land and the potential is enormous. Still though, USA should eventually take over Canada when it comes to hockey since Canada's development system is in shambles (besides one league) and without a good development system the population will take over. Think about it, if Canada had a population of California and Texas combined they would have much more than seven NHL teams and probably more direct funding from the NHL.

Canada hits population record, California still has more people
 
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