Dipsy Doodle
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- May 28, 2006
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I've seen "retroactive awards" being mentioned in the All-Time Draft and was wondering where this list can be found.
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I've seen "retroactive awards" being mentioned in the All-Time Draft and was wondering where this list can be found.
The only official ones are the Conn Smythes, which were compiled by a bunch of experts.
This list can be found here:
http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml
Obviously they have their flaws, but it's interesting stuff nonetheless.
I've seen "retroactive awards" being mentioned in the All-Time Draft and was wondering where this list can be found.
There is a book called 'Ultimate Hockey' that has retroactive award winners for the Hart, Vezina, Norris, Selke and Art Ross from the year 1887 up until the awards were officially introduced. I highly recomend purchasing this book or at least going out to the library and reading it.
Also try contacting pnep (a poster on these boards) because I think I remember him having a Microsoft Excel file that has retroactive winners for every trophy.
If you'd like to know some of the winners from some specific years i'd be happy to post them. However keep in mind that Ultimate Hockey isn't the hockey history gospel.
Not to change the subject but without looking at that book I would project a guy like Keon and Provost to have a few Selke trophies between them. Shore would have owned the Norris, and after him Kelly would have gotten more than one before 1954
I've note retroactive Selke winners from that site long ago but don't know the source. I'm pretty sure those are the winner from Total Hockey.
The Norris list is also quite interesting. I think I need to read a bit more about George Boucher. I know that Pnep has him ranked very high, but the four potential Norrises probably have a lot to do with that.
Then again, there are two seasons where one could make a strong argument for Sprague Cleghorn, rather than Boucher. In 1924 and 1926, Cleghorn was runner-up for the Hart trophy, but Boucher gets the Norris. Boucher did have a considerable edge in scoring in 1924, but was just 1 pt. ahead of Cleghorn in 1926. Cleghorn was universally regarded as one of the toughest and best defensive players of his era. I'm tempted to consider Cleghorn the rightful winner of 1926 Norris.
Ultimate Hockey
While Cleghorn was adept with the puck, he was possibly better without it. So harsh was his treatment of opposing forwards that many were scared to hang around the net. Despite what has been said about his unpredictablility, his defensive ability can be compared quite favorably to contemporaries such as Eddie Gerard, Ching Johnson, or Buck Boucher.
Ultimate Hockey
Although the Ottawa Senators would boast such talents as Eddie Gerard, King Clancy, Sprague Cleghorn and Lionel Hitchman, the man they called Buck was the linchpin. Although he wasn't a particularly fast skater. His puck control was other-worldly. According to reports, opposing players could hear the curious tap-tap of his stick on the ice as he navigated his way through oppsing teams. In all, he figured in four Stanley Cups in Ottawa and during his prime was considered one of the leagues elite talents. It's often said that King Clancy was the first of the modern rushers, but Buck Boucher, a stick handling wizard, started the proverbial puck rolling.
Really interesting lists, thanks for posting them.
The problem with the Selke trophy is that its standards have changed over time. When it was first officially awarded, it seemed to go to purely defensive players. Then, in the nineties, it went to great two-way forwards (as opposed to the the best purely defensive forward) (i.e. Gilmour, Fedorov, Francis, Yzerman, Brind'Amour).
With a few exceptions (Clarke, Mikita, possibly Keon), most of the retroactive Selke winners seem to be the best purely defensive forwards. So, in that sense, they might not be directly comparable to the Selke winners in some years.
It's hard to get recognized as a top defensive forward if you're not on a strong team. I wonder if Pavelich, Provost, Klukay, etc., would get remembered if they played for the 40s Rangers or 50s Bruins.
The Norris list is also quite interesting. I think I need to read a bit more about George Boucher. I know that Pnep has him ranked very high, but the four potential Norrises probably have a lot to do with that.
Then again, there are two seasons where one could make a strong argument for Sprague Cleghorn, rather than Boucher. In 1924 and 1926, Cleghorn was runner-up for the Hart trophy, but Boucher gets the Norris. Boucher did have a considerable edge in scoring in 1924, but was just 1 pt. ahead of Cleghorn in 1926. Cleghorn was universally regarded as one of the toughest and best defensive players of his era. I'm tempted to consider Cleghorn the rightful winner of 1926 Norris.
It's not so much the prediction, rather the selection that confounds me.You know the future?
I'd give it to him both years if he was hart runner-up. From everything I heard about this guy, he was as tough and dirty as Shore, just not as talented. I just don't see how you can be the hart runner-up and not be the norris winner.
nighbor and lalonde seem to have been even more underrated than i thought.
in the same list babe pratt didn't get the norris, but he did win the hart.