tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
I'd put the Victoria Colonist's sportswriting on par with the Ottawa Citizen's... so, yeah
I'd be curious to know if there was some conflict of interest between the editor and the Aristocrats organization.
Retroactive NHL Award Winners (MOD: and actual PCHA, WCHL/WHL & WHA All-Star Teams)
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I'd put the Victoria Colonist's sportswriting on par with the Ottawa Citizen's... so, yeah
I'd be curious to know if there was some conflict of interest between the editor and the Aristocrats organization.
I'd put the Victoria Colonist's sportswriting on par with the Ottawa Citizen's... so, yeah
I'd be curious to know if there was some conflict of interest between the editor and the Aristocrats organization.
Yep its problem in every paper, but I have noticed that too. I think its pretty problematic that the free net archives at the moment doesn´t have more from Montreal (of course from many other cities too). La Patrie is there, but atleast for me that doesn´t bring help. Daily Mail is only available for few years. Gazette loses pretty decisively to Ottawa Citizen in early years in hockey coverage. It is safe bet that there is bias in Montreal papers too, but it would bring things more balanced. At the moment it´s much easier to find "good stuff" from Ottawa and it´s players.
I went through my old bookmarks and found this.
The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 9, 1920
Fowler did play in Spokane (same franchise) that season, but those memory failures were common. So yeah it would really seem that the scorers did the selections at some seasons. Lot of contradicting things said about those though.
I guess that the best source would be The Vancouver Province. Many times mentioned A.P. Garvey who was writer for them was in one article from 1918 mentioned also as "Leagues official statistician".
I added Tommy Phillips selection from 1915-1916 to the list. He was regular referee in PCHA with Ion that season. Can´t link the article so going to copy it to the next post. Like in many other times the selection is made by looking all-aroung game, chemistry and such things.
The Calgary Daily Herald - Mar 9, 1920
Fowler did play in Spokane (same franchise) that season, but those memory failures were common. So yeah it would really seem that the scorers did the selections at some seasons. Lot of contradicting things said about those though.
I guess that the best source would be The Vancouver Province. Many times mentioned A.P. Garvey who was writer for them was in one article from 1918 mentioned also as "Leagues official statistician".
I added Tommy Phillips selection from 1915-1916 to the list. He was regular referee in PCHA with Ion that season. Can´t link the article so going to copy it to the next post. Like in many other times the selection is made by looking all-aroung game, chemistry and such things.
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The Ottawa Journal, 18 Feb 1916
Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Point = Lester Patrick, Victoria
Cover Point = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Eddie Oatman, Portland
Center = Mickey Mackay, Vancouver
Right Wing = Charley Tobin, Portland
Left Wing = Jack Walker, Seattle
Spare D = Si Griffis, Vancouver
Spare F = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver
Goal = Hugh Lehman, Vancouver
Point = Lester Patrick, Victoria
Cover Point = Moose Johnson, Portland
Rover = Eddie Oatman, Portland
Center = Mickey Mackay, Vancouver
Right Wing = Charley Tobin, Portland
Left Wing = Jack Walker, Seattle
Spare D = Si Griffis, Vancouver
Spare F = Lloyd Cook, Vancouver
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Notes on these selections:
- Note that Frank Foyston is placed at rover, a position he did not play at any point during the season. This was probably a matter of trying to get both Foyston and Dunderdale, the league’s scoring leaders, into the 1st team lineup – especially in light of Cyclone Taylor’s having missed a bunch of time and still ending up on the 2nd team. Foyston was clearly a better center during this season than Taylor, if not Dunderdale as well, so 1st-team prestige is the only logical reason for the selections to be ordered this way.
- Unfortunately, putting Foyston at rover creates an awkward domino effect on the 2nd team. His teammate, Jack Walker, is the 2nd team rover whereas he probably could have been 1st team by merit.
- In turn, this appears to have caused Ion to list Lester Patrick at defense, where he played only a fraction of the time, rather at rover where he was so outstanding.
- Having Patrick slotted at defense pushes his own teammate, Moose Johnson, out of the lineup even though he probably deserved to be there on merit.
- The selection of Lehman could be considered slightly controversial in the sense that all three of the league’s goalies could make a claim to having played the best season. Lehman was certainly the most established by this time, as well as the most visually interesting, so those factors may have played into giving him an edge in Ion’s eyes.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Here is the 1920 All Star team as selected by the Seattle Star.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093407/1920-03-11/ed-1/seq-12/
Caution: the Star offered some of the weakest coverage of any NHL/PCHA daily paper. The all-star article was probably the biggest effort they put into coverage of the league for the entire regular season. That doesn't make the selections wrong, and it doesn't mean the beat writer wasn't trying his darndest to give the Mets some coverage every day... but still, let it be said that this was not a committed hockey paper.
That said, notes:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093407/1920-03-11/ed-1/seq-12/
Caution: the Star offered some of the weakest coverage of any NHL/PCHA daily paper. The all-star article was probably the biggest effort they put into coverage of the league for the entire regular season. That doesn't make the selections wrong, and it doesn't mean the beat writer wasn't trying his darndest to give the Mets some coverage every day... but still, let it be said that this was not a committed hockey paper.
That said, notes:
- Lehman over Holmes in the eyes of a Seattle paper does a lot to cement the former as the better goalie in this season. The writer says Lehman "has shown more consistent form [than Holmes] thruout the season. Heck Fowler hasn't quite measured up to the form displayed by Holmes and Lehman during the past season." IMO that should be perceived less as a slight on Fowler than as a compliment to Lehman and Holmes.
- Moose Johnson is a first-teamer here, whereas Mickey Ion left him off entirely. The Seattle writer called him the PCHA's "ranking defense man" and "the best back checker in the league". This makes two papers (along with the Victoria Colonist) who questioned Ion's exclusion of Johnson.
- Of the two big Vancouver defensemen, the Star has Lloyd Cook over Art Duncan. They also agree with Ion on Bobby Rowe being the other member of the top-4, which seems right. The other candidates would be Rowe's partner Roy Rickey and Victoria's Clem Loughlin, an inferior player.
- This paper effectively agrees with Ion that Jack Walker was the best "real" rover in the league, stating that he is "in a class by himself".
- Second-year pro Jack Adams gets the rover nod over Lester Patrick, which seems wrong. Even the writer doesn't appear to consider Adams to be worthy of a spot, so perhaps he held Patrick's low GP against him. The fact that Adams was perceived as so far below Jack Walker might also explain why Ion effectively chose to not name a 2nd team rover.
- Eddie Oatman is called the "best forward of the season", an indirect critique on his linemate and scoring champion, Tommy Dunderdale. A much more direct critique follows in the next paragraph, echoing the Colonist's consistent criticism of Dunderdale as a me-first player who didn't pass the puck or play defense.
- Foyston goes to LW, where he spent a few games but there is an explicit note that he would be better listed at center. This may also be a case of shallowness at the position, as LW was Victoria's weakest position and Seattle's LWs didn't set the world on fire.
- Every player in the Vancouver lineup made one of the two teams. That seems right with the exception of Adams over Patrick (notwithstanding Patrick's fragmented season).
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
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I've been thinking about the PCHA all-star teams listed in the 1910s and 1920s. Some pieces of the puzzle seem to be coming together:
In March 1919, the Seattle Star reports that "heretofore the official scorers at each league city has picked the [all-star] club". What are "official scorers"? Most likely the persons entrusted by the league with keeping the scores of each league game played in the respective city.
In 1917-1918, the official all-star team of the PCHA features three goaltenders – according to league president Frank Patrick, no decision was reached on who was the best out of the three. Trivia: The league only features three teams in 1917-1918 (Vancouver Millionaires, Seattle Metropolitans, Portland Rosebuds), so all goalies in the league are all-stars that season.
Now how likely is it that a group of several voters (the "official scorers") arrive at a three-way tie in a vote? Very unlikely, except the number of voters is exactly – three. In a league consisting of three cities/clubs, this makes a lot of sense. Three cities, one officials score keeper in each city, one voter in each city. If the scorer from Vancouver and the scorer from Seattle and the scorer from Portland all have a different goaltender on the ballot, the result is a three-way tie.
But who were those "scorers"? The evidence we have allows us to answer this question with a very high probability. In February 1917, the Calgary Daily Herald quotes the picks four "sporting writers" respectively "hockey critics" made for a team "to represent the P.C.H.L. this season". The four writers are A. P. Garvey (Vancouver Province), J. S. Bain (Spokane Review), Lou Kennedy (Portland Telegraph) and Royal Brougham (Seattle Post-Intelligencer). At the same time the league has four member clubs: one from Vancouver, one from Spokane, one from Portland and one from Seattle. That's certainly not a coincidence. One months later the Calgary Herald quotes the same four writers again (this time they have conducted a MVP voting). The article available online is in bad condition, but one sentence is clear to read: "Here are rankings of scorers". So here we find the writers even referred to as "scorers". There is little doubt: the PCHA entrusted one sports writer in each member city with both keeping score of the games and voting on the all-star team. And thus, their 1916-1917 all-star voting as published in February 1917 constitutes the "official" PCHA all-star voting for that season.
Fast forward to 1917-1918. With only three writer-scorers left (the Spokane club has disappeared from the league and the Spokane writer-scorer had to follow suit), the goaltender all-star voting ends in a three-way tie. At the same time the two PCHA referees, Ion and Irvine, make the news when they both published their individual all-star selections. And after that the PCHA suddenly changes its voting system: instead of asking the writer-scorers again, the league now turns to referee-in-chief Fred 'Mickey' Ion to pick the the official all-star team (starting in March 1919). The choice seems smart enough: with one voter, no more ties are to be expected.
What an irony that just a few years later, in February 1922, Mickey Ion himself found it impossible to decide which of the three goaltenders in the PCHA was the best in 1921-1922. What did his official all-star team get the PCHA? A three-way-tie between all three goalies!
In March 1919, the Seattle Star reports that "heretofore the official scorers at each league city has picked the [all-star] club". What are "official scorers"? Most likely the persons entrusted by the league with keeping the scores of each league game played in the respective city.
In 1917-1918, the official all-star team of the PCHA features three goaltenders – according to league president Frank Patrick, no decision was reached on who was the best out of the three. Trivia: The league only features three teams in 1917-1918 (Vancouver Millionaires, Seattle Metropolitans, Portland Rosebuds), so all goalies in the league are all-stars that season.
Now how likely is it that a group of several voters (the "official scorers") arrive at a three-way tie in a vote? Very unlikely, except the number of voters is exactly – three. In a league consisting of three cities/clubs, this makes a lot of sense. Three cities, one officials score keeper in each city, one voter in each city. If the scorer from Vancouver and the scorer from Seattle and the scorer from Portland all have a different goaltender on the ballot, the result is a three-way tie.
But who were those "scorers"? The evidence we have allows us to answer this question with a very high probability. In February 1917, the Calgary Daily Herald quotes the picks four "sporting writers" respectively "hockey critics" made for a team "to represent the P.C.H.L. this season". The four writers are A. P. Garvey (Vancouver Province), J. S. Bain (Spokane Review), Lou Kennedy (Portland Telegraph) and Royal Brougham (Seattle Post-Intelligencer). At the same time the league has four member clubs: one from Vancouver, one from Spokane, one from Portland and one from Seattle. That's certainly not a coincidence. One months later the Calgary Herald quotes the same four writers again (this time they have conducted a MVP voting). The article available online is in bad condition, but one sentence is clear to read: "Here are rankings of scorers". So here we find the writers even referred to as "scorers". There is little doubt: the PCHA entrusted one sports writer in each member city with both keeping score of the games and voting on the all-star team. And thus, their 1916-1917 all-star voting as published in February 1917 constitutes the "official" PCHA all-star voting for that season.
Fast forward to 1917-1918. With only three writer-scorers left (the Spokane club has disappeared from the league and the Spokane writer-scorer had to follow suit), the goaltender all-star voting ends in a three-way tie. At the same time the two PCHA referees, Ion and Irvine, make the news when they both published their individual all-star selections. And after that the PCHA suddenly changes its voting system: instead of asking the writer-scorers again, the league now turns to referee-in-chief Fred 'Mickey' Ion to pick the the official all-star team (starting in March 1919). The choice seems smart enough: with one voter, no more ties are to be expected.
What an irony that just a few years later, in February 1922, Mickey Ion himself found it impossible to decide which of the three goaltenders in the PCHA was the best in 1921-1922. What did his official all-star team get the PCHA? A three-way-tie between all three goalies!
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Canadiens1958
Registered User
The role of the "Official Scorer" in hockey has not changed much over the years:
Official (ice hockey) - Wikipedia
Add the responsibility of getting the list of eligible players to the opposing team and other officilas.
Official (ice hockey) - Wikipedia
Add the responsibility of getting the list of eligible players to the opposing team and other officilas.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
This info really needs to be easier to find, so I'll repost it here.
Unofficial GM voted all-star teams:
1926-27:
1927-28:
1928-29:
Unofficial GM voted all-star teams:
1926-27:
1927-28:
1928-29:
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Another thread brought me back to scratch my head with these ones. edit. from 1918
Trail or Total has these selections apparently. Never seen either book.
1917-18 1st Team
Hugh Lehman, G, Ernie Johnson, D, Bobby Rowe, D, Frank Foyston, C/RW. Bernie Morris, C/RW
2nd Team
Hec Fowler, G. Lester Patrick, D, Lloyd Cook, D, Mickey MacKay, C, Barney Stanley, RW
Now I believe that they have used the scorekeepers "official" selection as source.
It goes like this.
1. team
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: Rowe, Rover: Taylor, Center: Morris, RW: Tobin, LW Foyston
2. team
Goal: Fowler, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Cook, Rover: Barbour, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW Stanley
Now you don´t need to go any further than the individual votes to make it complicated. Here are those.
A.P. Garvey Vancouver
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: Rowe, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Foyston, LW Oatman
Lou Kennedy Portland
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: L.Patrick, Rover: Taylor, Center: Morris, RW: Tobin, LW Roberts
Royal Brougham Seattle
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: Rowe, Rover: Foyston, Center: Taylor, RW: Morris, LW Tobin
Couple of comments, but I´m not sure if it is the original article.
Edmonton Journal 13 Mar. 1913
...All three scorers agreed that the veteran campaigner was worthy of a place on the mythical all-star septette. Bernie Morris selected by two for a place on the team would be more useful at centre ice than in any other position, and placing him there and shifting Taylor back to his old position at rover, would line up the leading scorers together...
..and Lloyd Cook would seem to be of all-star calibre, but on the whole season´s performances both Rowe and Johnson have played a better game....
Now ofcourse there is already few problems. The one who compiled the list put Taylor as Rover even though he did not play as one. Cook, Barbour and Stanley were selected to second team without getting a vote. Roberts did get one.
Now the other "Official team that was selected was made by Frank Patrick.
His selections.
Goal: All three, D: Johnson, D: Cook, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Tobin, LW: Foyston, Sub: Oatman
Few comments
Mackay Heads Rovers
"Mackay, of Vancouver, showed to be advantage as rover. Both Portland and Seattle changed rovers several times during the course of the season, while Mackay played straight schedule for Vancouver.
The Cyclone Leads Centres
"There is not a shadow of a doubt as to who is the best centre. Hockey has yet to see the man who can out-play "Cyclone" Taylor.
On top of that the referees made their own selection which later became the "official" Ion selection.
Fred Ion
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Tobin, LW: Foyston, Spare: Dundardale, Spare: Morris
George Irvine
Goal: Lehman, Point: Cook, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Tobin, LW: Foyston, Spare: Rowe, Spare: Oatman
So the end result had Taylor as first team rover who got 1 out 6 votes from significant voters for that place (but 5 for center). And didn´t even play it for that season. And has Alf Barbour as second selection who did not get any votes. Also Mackay who pretty clearly was the best rover was left as second team Center. Behind Morris who got 1 vote for that place+ one winger and spare.
Also worth noting that Stanley was second teamer without getting single vote (if you don´t count the compiler of the list).
Trail or Total has these selections apparently. Never seen either book.
1917-18 1st Team
Hugh Lehman, G, Ernie Johnson, D, Bobby Rowe, D, Frank Foyston, C/RW. Bernie Morris, C/RW
2nd Team
Hec Fowler, G. Lester Patrick, D, Lloyd Cook, D, Mickey MacKay, C, Barney Stanley, RW
Now I believe that they have used the scorekeepers "official" selection as source.
It goes like this.
1. team
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: Rowe, Rover: Taylor, Center: Morris, RW: Tobin, LW Foyston
2. team
Goal: Fowler, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Cook, Rover: Barbour, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW Stanley
Now you don´t need to go any further than the individual votes to make it complicated. Here are those.
A.P. Garvey Vancouver
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: Rowe, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Foyston, LW Oatman
Lou Kennedy Portland
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: L.Patrick, Rover: Taylor, Center: Morris, RW: Tobin, LW Roberts
Royal Brougham Seattle
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: Rowe, Rover: Foyston, Center: Taylor, RW: Morris, LW Tobin
Couple of comments, but I´m not sure if it is the original article.
Edmonton Journal 13 Mar. 1913
...All three scorers agreed that the veteran campaigner was worthy of a place on the mythical all-star septette. Bernie Morris selected by two for a place on the team would be more useful at centre ice than in any other position, and placing him there and shifting Taylor back to his old position at rover, would line up the leading scorers together...
..and Lloyd Cook would seem to be of all-star calibre, but on the whole season´s performances both Rowe and Johnson have played a better game....
Now ofcourse there is already few problems. The one who compiled the list put Taylor as Rover even though he did not play as one. Cook, Barbour and Stanley were selected to second team without getting a vote. Roberts did get one.
Now the other "Official team that was selected was made by Frank Patrick.
His selections.
Goal: All three, D: Johnson, D: Cook, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Tobin, LW: Foyston, Sub: Oatman
Few comments
Mackay Heads Rovers
"Mackay, of Vancouver, showed to be advantage as rover. Both Portland and Seattle changed rovers several times during the course of the season, while Mackay played straight schedule for Vancouver.
The Cyclone Leads Centres
"There is not a shadow of a doubt as to who is the best centre. Hockey has yet to see the man who can out-play "Cyclone" Taylor.
On top of that the referees made their own selection which later became the "official" Ion selection.
Fred Ion
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Tobin, LW: Foyston, Spare: Dundardale, Spare: Morris
George Irvine
Goal: Lehman, Point: Cook, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Mackay, Center: Taylor, RW: Tobin, LW: Foyston, Spare: Rowe, Spare: Oatman
So the end result had Taylor as first team rover who got 1 out 6 votes from significant voters for that place (but 5 for center). And didn´t even play it for that season. And has Alf Barbour as second selection who did not get any votes. Also Mackay who pretty clearly was the best rover was left as second team Center. Behind Morris who got 1 vote for that place+ one winger and spare.
Also worth noting that Stanley was second teamer without getting single vote (if you don´t count the compiler of the list).
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So the next would be WCHL 1922-1923 because I have decent amount of material from that.
Apparently Trail/Total has this team
1922-23
1st Team
Hal Winkler G, Herb Gardiner D, Bob Trapp D, Joe Simpson D, Duke Keats C, Charlie McVeigh C/LW,
Barney Stanley RW, Art Gagne RW, George Hay LW
2nd Team
Bill Laird G, Percy Traub D
Now my best guess is that their source is the 18. Jan 1923 selection from The Morning Leader.
It goes like
1.
G: Winkler, RD: Simpson, LD: Gardiner C: Keats, RW: Gagne LW: Hay,
Subs: Stanley. McVeigh, Trapp, Campbell
Manager: Lalonde
2.
G: Laird, RD: Traub, LD:Moran, C: Irvin, RW: Oliver, LW: Arbour
Subs: Newell, Benson, Battell, Morrison
Manager: Mckenzie
They had fan voting too in the next week and the team is here.
G: Laird, RD: Simpson, LD: Moran, C: Keats, RW: Gagne, LW: Hay
Subs: Stanley, McVeigh, Trapp, Campbell
Now during that season Skinner Poulin, referee of WCHL, also selected his team.
Ottawa Citizen 30. Mar 1923
G: Winkler, D: Simpson, D: Moran, C: Keats, RW: Gagne, LW: Hay
Sub D: Gardiner, Sub F: Oliver, Cook , Stanley
Manager: Lalonde
He also selected All-Western team. Though he only did see Intraleague games from PCHA.
G: Lehman D: Simpson D: Duncan C: Keats RW; MacKay LW: Frederickson
Sub D: Cook, Sub F: Foyston, Gagne, Hay
Manager: Lester Patrick
So looking at it overall it looks great for Simpson and Keats and much better for Hay and Gagne.
Now as certainly weaker ones there were
Unidentified Vancouver Sports Scribe and his All-Western team
G:Lehman, RD: Simpson, LD: Loughlin, C: Frederickson, RW: Hay, LW: MacKay
Subs: Cook, Riley, Gagne
Frank Patricks selections from WCHL Intra league games
G: Binney, D: Simpson, D: Moran, F: Hay F: Keats F: Lalonde
Subs: Matte, Stanley, Martin
Apparently Trail/Total has this team
1922-23
1st Team
Hal Winkler G, Herb Gardiner D, Bob Trapp D, Joe Simpson D, Duke Keats C, Charlie McVeigh C/LW,
Barney Stanley RW, Art Gagne RW, George Hay LW
2nd Team
Bill Laird G, Percy Traub D
Now my best guess is that their source is the 18. Jan 1923 selection from The Morning Leader.
It goes like
1.
G: Winkler, RD: Simpson, LD: Gardiner C: Keats, RW: Gagne LW: Hay,
Subs: Stanley. McVeigh, Trapp, Campbell
Manager: Lalonde
2.
G: Laird, RD: Traub, LD:Moran, C: Irvin, RW: Oliver, LW: Arbour
Subs: Newell, Benson, Battell, Morrison
Manager: Mckenzie
They had fan voting too in the next week and the team is here.
G: Laird, RD: Simpson, LD: Moran, C: Keats, RW: Gagne, LW: Hay
Subs: Stanley, McVeigh, Trapp, Campbell
Now during that season Skinner Poulin, referee of WCHL, also selected his team.
Ottawa Citizen 30. Mar 1923
G: Winkler, D: Simpson, D: Moran, C: Keats, RW: Gagne, LW: Hay
Sub D: Gardiner, Sub F: Oliver, Cook , Stanley
Manager: Lalonde
He also selected All-Western team. Though he only did see Intraleague games from PCHA.
G: Lehman D: Simpson D: Duncan C: Keats RW; MacKay LW: Frederickson
Sub D: Cook, Sub F: Foyston, Gagne, Hay
Manager: Lester Patrick
So looking at it overall it looks great for Simpson and Keats and much better for Hay and Gagne.
Now as certainly weaker ones there were
Unidentified Vancouver Sports Scribe and his All-Western team
G:Lehman, RD: Simpson, LD: Loughlin, C: Frederickson, RW: Hay, LW: MacKay
Subs: Cook, Riley, Gagne
Frank Patricks selections from WCHL Intra league games
G: Binney, D: Simpson, D: Moran, F: Hay F: Keats F: Lalonde
Subs: Matte, Stanley, Martin
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1916 PCHA season all-star is again interesting one.
Trail gives this
1915-16
1st Team
Hugh Lehman, G, Lester Patrick, D, Ernie Johnson, D, Smokey Harris, LW, Bernie Morris, C/RW
2nd Team Hap Holmes, G, Lloyd Cook, D, Mickey MacKay, C, Ran McDonald, RW
Now these would be fit for the selection of former Sports editor of Province. James T. Hewitt. I have Hewitt´s (then actually the sports editor) selection from atleast 1914 (match) and 1912 (not match). Hewitt´s selection´s were often printed in several papers.
Province 19. Feb 1916
1. team
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Oatman, Center: Morris, RW: Tobin, LW: Harris
2. team
Goal: Holmes, Point: Genge, Cover: Griffis, Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: McDonald, LW: Cook
Ofcourse there was the classic referees selection. Then by Tommy Phillips.
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Oatman, Center: MacKay, RW: Tobin, LW: Walker
Subs: Griffis and Cook
Also President Frank Patrick again made his selection.
Edmonton Journal 22. Feb 1916
G: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, F: Taylor. F: Oatman, F: Tobin, F: Cook
And then there were few other sport writers all star selections.
A. P. Garvey who was part of the selecting group of official scorers in 1917 and 1918
Vancouver Sun 24. Jan 1916
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Foyston, Center: Oatman, RW: Tobin, LW: Cook
I don´t have Portlands Lou Kennedy´s allstar from that season, but apparently he disagreed with the selection of Foyston over Taylor for rover with Garvey.
Then I have the selection of Mike Jay who was sports editor for Vancouver Sun.
Vancouver Sun 8 Feb 1916
Goal: Lehman, Point and Cover: Griffis and Johnson, Rover: Taylor, Center: Oatman, RW: Tobin, LW: Kerr
Subs: L. Patrick, Carpenter, MacKay
So the unanimous selections in that year were Lehman, Johnson, Oatman and Tobin which is again quite impressive with so many selectors. Though yet again the selections were made at different times of the season.
Trail gives this
1915-16
1st Team
Hugh Lehman, G, Lester Patrick, D, Ernie Johnson, D, Smokey Harris, LW, Bernie Morris, C/RW
2nd Team Hap Holmes, G, Lloyd Cook, D, Mickey MacKay, C, Ran McDonald, RW
Now these would be fit for the selection of former Sports editor of Province. James T. Hewitt. I have Hewitt´s (then actually the sports editor) selection from atleast 1914 (match) and 1912 (not match). Hewitt´s selection´s were often printed in several papers.
Province 19. Feb 1916
1. team
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Oatman, Center: Morris, RW: Tobin, LW: Harris
2. team
Goal: Holmes, Point: Genge, Cover: Griffis, Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: McDonald, LW: Cook
Ofcourse there was the classic referees selection. Then by Tommy Phillips.
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Oatman, Center: MacKay, RW: Tobin, LW: Walker
Subs: Griffis and Cook
Also President Frank Patrick again made his selection.
Edmonton Journal 22. Feb 1916
G: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, F: Taylor. F: Oatman, F: Tobin, F: Cook
And then there were few other sport writers all star selections.
A. P. Garvey who was part of the selecting group of official scorers in 1917 and 1918
Vancouver Sun 24. Jan 1916
Goal: Lehman, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Foyston, Center: Oatman, RW: Tobin, LW: Cook
I don´t have Portlands Lou Kennedy´s allstar from that season, but apparently he disagreed with the selection of Foyston over Taylor for rover with Garvey.
Then I have the selection of Mike Jay who was sports editor for Vancouver Sun.
Vancouver Sun 8 Feb 1916
Goal: Lehman, Point and Cover: Griffis and Johnson, Rover: Taylor, Center: Oatman, RW: Tobin, LW: Kerr
Subs: L. Patrick, Carpenter, MacKay
So the unanimous selections in that year were Lehman, Johnson, Oatman and Tobin which is again quite impressive with so many selectors. Though yet again the selections were made at different times of the season.
I'm sure some here are aware, but there is a book on the PCHA that should have the information:
Craig H. Bowlsy, Empire of Ice: The Rise and Fall of the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, 1911–1926 (2012). It was published by a small, independent publisher out of Vancouver (in effect self-published) but cites local papers, archives, and so on. I have a copy and will take a look at what he has for all-star teams in the coming days.
Craig H. Bowlsy, Empire of Ice: The Rise and Fall of the Pacific Coast Hockey Association, 1911–1926 (2012). It was published by a small, independent publisher out of Vancouver (in effect self-published) but cites local papers, archives, and so on. I have a copy and will take a look at what he has for all-star teams in the coming days.
That would be great!
Hoping to see answers or probably new selections. Though at the same time worried that it may bring even more confusion.
I don´t have that many from 1915 season.
Total and Trail gives this. (Need to point that original work with the Trail and Total selection was made by our member BM67.)
Hugh Lehman, G, Ernie Johnson, D, Lester Patrick, D, Fred Taylor, R, Mickey MacKay, C, Eddie Oatman, RW, Frank Nighbor, LW
Tommy Dunderdale, C (Trail of the Stanley Cup gives the all-star team without Dunderdale, but Total Hockey says he was a 1st All-star in 1915.)
Now I haven´t found any that selects Dunderdale so certainly I am missing something.
I have yet again A.P. Garveys selection.
Edmonton Journal 30. Jan 1915
1.
Goal: Lehman, Point: Griffis, Cover: L.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW: Nighbor
2.
Goal: Mitchell, Point: Johnson, Cover: Tobin, Rover: Poulin, Center: R.MacDonald, RW: Kerr, LW Throop
Now Vancouver Province had their own selection made by Sports Editor. This may be James T. Hewitt. And it would be perfect match for the trail selection. It was again published in few papers.
Province 26. Feb 1915
Goal: Lehman, D: Johnson, D: L.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW: Nighbor
As a bonus they published NHA All-Star which was originally published in Ottawa Free Press
G: Clint Benedict, D: S.Cleghorn, D: Merritt, C: T.Smith, RW: G.Roberts LW: Broadbent
Then there was Portland selection from R.A. Cronin
The Oregon Daily Journal 28. Feb 1915
Goal: Lehman, D: Johnson, D: L.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW: Nighbor
Sub D: Tobin Sub F: Kerr
On those three selectors seemed to be rather in agreement. Garvey was higher about Griffis, but he made that selection earlier in the season.
One name I would like to raise up is Charles Tobin. Trail and Total did not give him really anything, but looking at these selections he was unanimous selection for RW in 1916 and in 1918 he got 4 out of 6 significant selections for RW and one LW. In 1915 he was good enough to be 2nd team selection and a spare in a D which wasn´t his natural.
The Oregon Daily Journal 28. Feb 1915
Charley Tobin of the Rosebuds, a natural forward man, was shifted to defense, when Rochon´s injury kept him out of the game throughout the season, and until he had mastered the position did not show any particular advantage. However, he came like a flash toward the and and played brilliantly enough to win a position as substitute defense man on the all-star team. Another year, and he will be crowding one of the others for first position.
Total and Trail gives this. (Need to point that original work with the Trail and Total selection was made by our member BM67.)
Hugh Lehman, G, Ernie Johnson, D, Lester Patrick, D, Fred Taylor, R, Mickey MacKay, C, Eddie Oatman, RW, Frank Nighbor, LW
Tommy Dunderdale, C (Trail of the Stanley Cup gives the all-star team without Dunderdale, but Total Hockey says he was a 1st All-star in 1915.)
Now I haven´t found any that selects Dunderdale so certainly I am missing something.
I have yet again A.P. Garveys selection.
Edmonton Journal 30. Jan 1915
1.
Goal: Lehman, Point: Griffis, Cover: L.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW: Nighbor
2.
Goal: Mitchell, Point: Johnson, Cover: Tobin, Rover: Poulin, Center: R.MacDonald, RW: Kerr, LW Throop
Now Vancouver Province had their own selection made by Sports Editor. This may be James T. Hewitt. And it would be perfect match for the trail selection. It was again published in few papers.
Province 26. Feb 1915
Goal: Lehman, D: Johnson, D: L.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW: Nighbor
As a bonus they published NHA All-Star which was originally published in Ottawa Free Press
G: Clint Benedict, D: S.Cleghorn, D: Merritt, C: T.Smith, RW: G.Roberts LW: Broadbent
Then there was Portland selection from R.A. Cronin
The Oregon Daily Journal 28. Feb 1915
Goal: Lehman, D: Johnson, D: L.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: MacKay, RW: Oatman, LW: Nighbor
Sub D: Tobin Sub F: Kerr
On those three selectors seemed to be rather in agreement. Garvey was higher about Griffis, but he made that selection earlier in the season.
One name I would like to raise up is Charles Tobin. Trail and Total did not give him really anything, but looking at these selections he was unanimous selection for RW in 1916 and in 1918 he got 4 out of 6 significant selections for RW and one LW. In 1915 he was good enough to be 2nd team selection and a spare in a D which wasn´t his natural.
The Oregon Daily Journal 28. Feb 1915
Charley Tobin of the Rosebuds, a natural forward man, was shifted to defense, when Rochon´s injury kept him out of the game throughout the season, and until he had mastered the position did not show any particular advantage. However, he came like a flash toward the and and played brilliantly enough to win a position as substitute defense man on the all-star team. Another year, and he will be crowding one of the others for first position.
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Now that NHA all-star reminded me that I have Elmer Ferguson´s selection for NHA all-star from 1916. It was originally published in Montreal Herald. S. Cleghorn actually missed big part of the season and they dropped Smail to defense while trying desperately seek another D.
1.
G: Lindsay, P: Ross, CP: S.Cleghorn F: Nighbor F: Pitre F: Malone
2.
G: Vezina, P: Ritchie, CP: Corbeau, F: Lalonde, F: Cy. Denenny, F: Gerard
I have only the commentary from the goalies in my notes.
Edmonton Journal 18. Mar 1916
The Consistently clever work Lindsay in the Wanderer nets entitles him to premier choice in the writer´s opinion it is true that 82 goals have been scored on Lindsay, which is 17 more than is chalked up against Vezina, and 24 more than credited to Ottawa. But these facts must also be considered: First, since the accident to Sprague Cleghorn, Lindsay has had one of the weakest defenses in the league in front of him: second, that the Wanderers play an open game on the forward line, aiming to score rather than prevent their opponent´s scoring. While 82 goals been scored against the red-bands, they have netted 80, which is the largest team total in the league. The Wanderer line does less back-checking than any other. The forwards let the defense men do the defense work, and they do the scoring. That accounts for the large totals scored against Wanderers and scored by them.
1.
G: Lindsay, P: Ross, CP: S.Cleghorn F: Nighbor F: Pitre F: Malone
2.
G: Vezina, P: Ritchie, CP: Corbeau, F: Lalonde, F: Cy. Denenny, F: Gerard
I have only the commentary from the goalies in my notes.
Edmonton Journal 18. Mar 1916
The Consistently clever work Lindsay in the Wanderer nets entitles him to premier choice in the writer´s opinion it is true that 82 goals have been scored on Lindsay, which is 17 more than is chalked up against Vezina, and 24 more than credited to Ottawa. But these facts must also be considered: First, since the accident to Sprague Cleghorn, Lindsay has had one of the weakest defenses in the league in front of him: second, that the Wanderers play an open game on the forward line, aiming to score rather than prevent their opponent´s scoring. While 82 goals been scored against the red-bands, they have netted 80, which is the largest team total in the league. The Wanderer line does less back-checking than any other. The forwards let the defense men do the defense work, and they do the scoring. That accounts for the large totals scored against Wanderers and scored by them.
Now from 1914 I have only the Province selection from Jimmy Hewitt (well random fan votes too but not going to post those). Trail agrees with that. Now tham I am compiling these I´m getting more and more certain that this could be the selection that Trail used before 1917. For the reasons.
A) It seems to be perfect fit
B) Hewitt made annual selection
C) It was published in several papers
So here is what BM67 gathered from book
1913-14
Hugh Lehman, G, Ernie Johnson, D, Frank Patrick, D, Fred Taylor, R, Tom Dunderdale, C, Eddie Oatman, RW, Dubbie Kerr, LW
"Trail of the Stanley Cup gives all-star as above. Total Hockey gives these players...."
Province 10. Feb 1914
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: F.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: Dunderdale, RW: Oatman, LW: Kerr
Comments
Three positions on the team will go unchallanged. They are the wings and goal. Lehman is unquestionably the best guardian in the leagua, while Oatman and Kerr have shown themselves without equals in their positions. "Cyclone" Taylor has been filling in at centre because the Vancouver club did not have anybody else to put there, but he is properly a rover, which leaves Dunderdale the only other candidate for the centre position. Lester Patrick is a better cover point than Ernie Johnson when right, but his broken arm has miliated against his play, and on the season´s work Johnson has to be chosen. Frank Patrick has taken a long time to round into condition but he is going great guns right now and thre is no question but he must be selected over Bobby Genge and George Rochob though both of these players are going along very nicely.
I tried to make some reserch on who was this James Hewitt. 1916 article mentions him as Lieutenant James T. Hewitt and that he was former editor of the paper. With that information and help of site Veterans Affairs Canada I sadly found article from 1917 that in fact he was KIA in WW1 at November 10. or 11 in 1917.
Long time spors editor with a boxing background. He was originally from Toronto and he was brother of Hockey Hall Of Famer W.A. Hewitt. Other broher was sports editor too. So hockey family.
W. A. Hewitt - Wikipedia
A) It seems to be perfect fit
B) Hewitt made annual selection
C) It was published in several papers
So here is what BM67 gathered from book
1913-14
Hugh Lehman, G, Ernie Johnson, D, Frank Patrick, D, Fred Taylor, R, Tom Dunderdale, C, Eddie Oatman, RW, Dubbie Kerr, LW
"Trail of the Stanley Cup gives all-star as above. Total Hockey gives these players...."
Province 10. Feb 1914
Goal: Lehman, Point: Johnson, Cover: F.Patrick , Rover: Taylor, Center: Dunderdale, RW: Oatman, LW: Kerr
Comments
Three positions on the team will go unchallanged. They are the wings and goal. Lehman is unquestionably the best guardian in the leagua, while Oatman and Kerr have shown themselves without equals in their positions. "Cyclone" Taylor has been filling in at centre because the Vancouver club did not have anybody else to put there, but he is properly a rover, which leaves Dunderdale the only other candidate for the centre position. Lester Patrick is a better cover point than Ernie Johnson when right, but his broken arm has miliated against his play, and on the season´s work Johnson has to be chosen. Frank Patrick has taken a long time to round into condition but he is going great guns right now and thre is no question but he must be selected over Bobby Genge and George Rochob though both of these players are going along very nicely.
I tried to make some reserch on who was this James Hewitt. 1916 article mentions him as Lieutenant James T. Hewitt and that he was former editor of the paper. With that information and help of site Veterans Affairs Canada I sadly found article from 1917 that in fact he was KIA in WW1 at November 10. or 11 in 1917.
Long time spors editor with a boxing background. He was originally from Toronto and he was brother of Hockey Hall Of Famer W.A. Hewitt. Other broher was sports editor too. So hockey family.
W. A. Hewitt - Wikipedia
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Sorry folks, looks like I got myself mixed up. He doesn't seem to have post-season all-star teams listed, just rosters for the various all-star games that were held.
That said I would still highly recommend the book. It goes season-by-season and has recaps, of both games and business dealings, and includes an appendix with every PCHA player's stats and information, among other things.
I ordered it directly from him years ago, and I think if you search up the publisher (Knights of Winter) you can get his contact information (note I have no interest in this book, financial or otherwise; just really found it useful).
That and the Helen Edwards book of hockey in Victoria both sounds really interesting. I actually do not have a single book about PCHA or hockey at that time. I have gone through many of those seasons day by day from several papers, but I do not have the other archives in my use.
Though regarding the All-Star selections I doubt if there were some "official" selections some of the main papers would have wrote about it. Even some of the fan votes were published in several papers and many of the sports editors choices were published in easter papers too.
As a last one I have few from the first PCHA season.
Here is Jimmy Hewitt´s selection which in this case wasn´t match with Trail´s one.
Province 12 Feb 1912
Goal: Lehman, Point: F.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: L.Patrick, Center: Lalonde, RW: Hyland LW: Gardner
Hic comments
There is no questioning the choice of Lehman for goal for he is easily the best of the three net guardians. He has shown up wonderfully well in the games so far and the other players affirm he is every bit as good as Percy Lesuer of the Ottawa Stanley cup holders, who is recognized as the best man in his position in the East.
Frank Patrick is playing better hockey now than he ever did and his work at point has been one of the features of the Vancouver team´s play. Brother Lester has been playing just as briliantly for Victoria and as he can attend to the duties of rover he has been passed up in the choice of a point player and named for the rover job. Some enthusiasts doubt Lester´s staying qualities in the forward position and would rather see him on the defence in which course it would just about come to a toss-up between him and Frank for the point position.
In that event Tommy Dunderdale of Victoria would unquestionably be the choice for rover. Ernie Johnson is in a class by himself as a coverpoint and nobody would think of selecting an all-star aggregatuib without including him. The big fellow is worth about twel men to a team. "Newsy" Lalonde has been playing center position on the all-stars. "Newsy" played magnificent hockey in Victoria last Friday night. Harry Hyland is sure one of the wing positions on the all-star team and Jimmy Gardner on account of his great headwork would be the choice for the other though Ron McDonald of the Westminster team and Bobby Rowe both seem to have a claim for consideration.
Vancouver Sun (could be J.W. Bryan) selected their team. Now actually in this year this would fit with the Trail selection.
Vancouver Sun 12. Mar 1912
1.
Goal: Hugh Lehman, Point: F.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Dunderdale, Centre: Lalonde, RW R.McDonald, LW Harry Hyland
Spare Point: L.Patrick Spare: Gardner
2.
Goal: Parr, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Griffis, Rover: Rowe, Center: Smith, Wing: Philips, Wing: Gardner
And then there was the selection of Frank Patrick to the actual All-Star game against Eastern All-Star. I actually remembered wrong in the other thread and this is also the same that Trail have as All-Star.
The Victoria Daily Times 27. Mar 1912
G: Lehman, Point: F.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Lalonde, Center: Dunderdale, LW: McDonald, RW: Hyland
Spares: L.Patrick, Gardner.
Gardner was out for some reason and at the end the team had Harris and Rowe as spares too.
Here is Jimmy Hewitt´s selection which in this case wasn´t match with Trail´s one.
Province 12 Feb 1912
Goal: Lehman, Point: F.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: L.Patrick, Center: Lalonde, RW: Hyland LW: Gardner
Hic comments
There is no questioning the choice of Lehman for goal for he is easily the best of the three net guardians. He has shown up wonderfully well in the games so far and the other players affirm he is every bit as good as Percy Lesuer of the Ottawa Stanley cup holders, who is recognized as the best man in his position in the East.
Frank Patrick is playing better hockey now than he ever did and his work at point has been one of the features of the Vancouver team´s play. Brother Lester has been playing just as briliantly for Victoria and as he can attend to the duties of rover he has been passed up in the choice of a point player and named for the rover job. Some enthusiasts doubt Lester´s staying qualities in the forward position and would rather see him on the defence in which course it would just about come to a toss-up between him and Frank for the point position.
In that event Tommy Dunderdale of Victoria would unquestionably be the choice for rover. Ernie Johnson is in a class by himself as a coverpoint and nobody would think of selecting an all-star aggregatuib without including him. The big fellow is worth about twel men to a team. "Newsy" Lalonde has been playing center position on the all-stars. "Newsy" played magnificent hockey in Victoria last Friday night. Harry Hyland is sure one of the wing positions on the all-star team and Jimmy Gardner on account of his great headwork would be the choice for the other though Ron McDonald of the Westminster team and Bobby Rowe both seem to have a claim for consideration.
Vancouver Sun (could be J.W. Bryan) selected their team. Now actually in this year this would fit with the Trail selection.
Vancouver Sun 12. Mar 1912
1.
Goal: Hugh Lehman, Point: F.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Dunderdale, Centre: Lalonde, RW R.McDonald, LW Harry Hyland
Spare Point: L.Patrick Spare: Gardner
2.
Goal: Parr, Point: L.Patrick, Cover: Griffis, Rover: Rowe, Center: Smith, Wing: Philips, Wing: Gardner
And then there was the selection of Frank Patrick to the actual All-Star game against Eastern All-Star. I actually remembered wrong in the other thread and this is also the same that Trail have as All-Star.
The Victoria Daily Times 27. Mar 1912
G: Lehman, Point: F.Patrick, Cover: Johnson, Rover: Lalonde, Center: Dunderdale, LW: McDonald, RW: Hyland
Spares: L.Patrick, Gardner.
Gardner was out for some reason and at the end the team had Harris and Rowe as spares too.
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