News Article: Red Wings Want 1st Round Pick for Howard

[odin1981]

He is playing lights out this year. But his career says what he is. This is just his peak season more than likely.

KH should move him for 2-3 picks, or a first in next year's draft and say a b level d-prospect.

We really don't need a forward in the mid to late first round and despite what people hope for d-men don't get traded for wingers.

 

[14ari13]

I consider Howard a top 5/10, maybe even top 3 in the league, THIS SEASON.

This definitely should bring us a 1st rounder, depending on demand.

 

[kliq]

I consider Howard a top 5/10, maybe even top 3 in the league, THIS SEASON.

This definitely should bring us a 1st rounder, depending on demand.

I think saying "definitely" is a little overly optimistic. I believe it all depends on an injury.

Here are the teams that are currently in the playoffs, and their starting goalie:

Tampa Bay - Andrei Vasilevskiy
Toronto - Frederik Andersen
Montreal - Carey Price
NYI - Robin Lehner
Washington - Braden Holtby
Pittsburgh - Matt Murray
Boston - Tuukka Rask
Columbus - Sergei Bobrovsky

Winnipeg - Connor Hellebuyck
Nashville - Pekka Rinne
Dallas - Ben Bishop
Calgary - David Rittich
San Jose - Martin Jones
Vegas - Marc-Andre Fleury
Minnesota - Devan Dubnyk
Vancouver - Jacob Markstrom

I cant see TB, Toronto, Montreal, Washington, Pittsburgh, Boston, Columbus, Winnipeg, Nashville, Dallas, San Jose, Vegas, or Minnesota trading a 1st for Howard as all these teams have definitive starters who are either at the same level, or at a higher level then Howard. I know guys like Murray and Holby are struggling, but I can't see their respective teams bringing in Howard for a 1st, and moving these former cup winning goalies into a backup role.

That leaves NYI, Calgary, and Vancouver. Lehner definitely has not shown through his career that he is at Howards level, however this year he ranks #1 in both Save % and GAA, so I cant see them trading for Howard unless he takes a nose dive in the next month. Calgary is in a similar situation, Rittich is no household name, however he is a top 10 goalie this year. Lastly that leaves Vancouver, if they were legit contenders, I could see it as Howard is definitely an upgrade over Markstrom, however they are also a re-building team, would they really give up a 1st so they can MAYBE win a round or two, if that.

Unless one of these goalies gets hurt for the season, I think the return for Howard is going to be low, and I think people should lower their expectations. I hope I am wrong, but when you break it down, I just cant see a scenario (again baring injury) where he lands us a 1st, or even a 2nd. I think he likely goes for a 3rd, or if its even worse then that, maybe Holland just hangs on to him.

I guess the wild card is a team on the outside looking in making the move. Maybe an Edmonton, Colorado, or Carolina? But for any of those teams to give up a 1st, it just seems like a bad move. It would be funny though if Carolina made a move, reuniting Howard with Mrazek lol.

What does everyone else think?

 

[14ari13]

I think saying "definitely" is a little overly optimistic. I believe it all depends on an injury.

Here are the teams that are currently in the playoffs, and their starting goalie:

Tampa Bay - Andrei Vasilevskiy
Toronto - Frederik Andersen
Montreal - Carey Price
NYI - Robin Lehner
Washington - Braden Holtby
Pittsburgh - Matt Murray
Boston - Tuukka Rask
Columbus - Sergei Bobrovsky

Winnipeg - Connor Hellebuyck
Nashville - Pekka Rinne
Dallas - Ben Bishop
Calgary - David Rittich
San Jose - Martin Jones
Vegas - Marc-Andre Fleury
Minnesota - Devan Dubnyk
Vancouver - Jacob Markstrom

I cant see TB, Toronto, Montreal, Washington, Pittsburgh, Boston, Columbus, Winnipeg, Nashville, Dallas, San Jose, Vegas, or Minnesota trading a 1st for Howard as all these teams have definitive starters who are either at the same level, or at a higher level then Howard. I know guys like Murray and Holby are struggling, but I can't see their respective teams bringing in Howard for a 1st, and moving these former cup winning goalies into a backup role.

That leaves NYI, Calgary, and Vancouver. Lehner definitely has not shown through his career that he is at Howards level, however this year he ranks #1 in both Save % and GAA, so I cant see them trading for Howard unless he takes a nose dive in the next month. Calgary is in a similar situation, Rittich is no household name, however he is a top 10 goalie this year. Lastly that leaves Vancouver, if they were legit contenders, I could see it as Howard is definitely an upgrade over Markstrom, however they are also a re-building team, would they really give up a 1st so they can MAYBE win a round or two, if that.

Unless one of these goalies gets hurt for the season, I think the return for Howard is going to be low, and I think people should lower their expectations. I hope I am wrong, but when you break it down, I just cant see a scenario (again baring injury) where he lands us a 1st, or even a 2nd. I think he likely goes for a 3rd, or if its even worse then that, maybe Holland just hangs on to him.

I guess the wild card is a team on the outside looking in making the move. Maybe an Edmonton, Colorado, or Carolina? But for any of those teams to give up a 1st, it just seems like a bad move. It would be funny though if Carolina made a move, reuniting Howard with Mrazek lol.

What does everyone else think?

A starting goalie does not have to have a major injury, it might be a minor one we do not know about, so Howard coulld provide the insurance they need.
As I said depending on demand.
I thought Smith and Tatar brought us much more than what I expected.

 

[Claypool]

What does everyone else think?

I think the market for him is drying up as more teams become sellers. He should have been moved as soon as possible since the start of this season, along with all the other pending UFA players. It's possible Howard doesn't even get traded for.

If Howard is dealt, it will be for a performance-based draft pick. Start at a 3rd rounder, and if he players/wins enough regular season games, it gets bumped up to a 2nd. If some miracle happens and he makes the Conference Final maybe it's then a 1st rounder.

 

[kliq]

I think the market for him is drying up as more teams become sellers. He should have been moved as soon as possible since the start of this season, along with all the other pending UFA players. It's possible Howard doesn't even get traded for.

If Howard is dealt, it will be for a performance-based draft pick. Start at a 3rd rounder, and if he players/wins enough regular season games, it gets bumped up to a 2nd. If some miracle happens and he makes the Conference Final maybe it's then a 1st rounder.

I could a performance-based pick, similar structure to Mrazek last year. As far as him being dealt earlier in the year, I dont see why a team would give the Wings anything of value for a goalie like Howard early, when the biggest knock on Howard is his ability to stay healthy. Howard screams the kind of a player a team would trade for last minute when they realize their starter may not be ok for a playoff run.

A starting goalie does not have to have a major injury, it might be a minor one we do not know about, so Howard coulld provide the insurance they need.
As I said depending on demand.
I thought Smith and Tatar brought us much more than what I expected.

If we are talking the return being a 1st, a minor injury seems like a stretch given how far out from the playoffs the TDL is. I hope you're right, I want to be wrong about this.

 

[Claypool]

As far as him being dealt earlier in the year, I dont see why a team would give the Wings anything of value for a goalie like Howard early, when the biggest knock on Howard is his ability to stay healthy. Howard screams the kind of a player a team would trade for last minute when they realize their starter may not be ok for a playoff run.

More teams thought they were in the race earlier on, so there would obviously be more interest. Trading Howard earlier - even if it means not getting a great package - at least ensures this team a bottom three finish, which is the most important strategy this season. Finishing 10th because they were too stubborn to move Howard or Nyquist is bad management. The season will be a complete waste. Don't even get me started about Hronek playing in Grand Rapids while Nick Jensen is still on this team.

 

[kliq]

More teams thought they were in the race earlier on, so there would obviously be more interest. Trading Howard earlier - even if it means not getting a great package - at least ensures this team a bottom three finish, which is the most important strategy this season. Finishing 10th because they were too stubborn to move Howard or Nyquist is bad management. The season will be a complete waste. Don't even get me started about Hronek playing in Grand Rapids while Nick Jensen is still on this team.

I'd rather not make this into a "should they be tanking" argument, I'm not saying I disagree or agree, its just a different debate altogether. The question here is "could they have gotten a good deal for Howard done earlier in the season". My gut tells me no, I could be wrong though. Are there any specific teams you think would have traded for Howard earlier in the season?

 

[14ari13]

I could a performance-based pick, similar structure to Mrazek last year. As far as him being dealt earlier in the year, I dont see why a team would give the Wings anything of value for a goalie like Howard early, when the biggest knock on Howard is his ability to stay healthy. Howard screams the kind of a player a team would trade for last minute when they realize their starter may not be ok for a playoff run.



If we are talking the return being a 1st, a minor injury seems like a stretch given how far out from the playoffs the TDL is. I hope you're right, I want to be wrong about this.

If I remember right we were 2-0 vs vs the avs in 99, just to lose the series as Osgood was injured. Howard has played lights out this season. He is not a young goalie, he is a veteran and as I say he is a top 3/5/10 goalie in the league THIS SEASON, consider the games played, sv%, gaa, winning %, defence in front of him.
Sure he has had his bad games and season and his playoff record is very bad and thin. But taking a hot hand is a smart move.

 

[kliq]

If I remember right we were 2-0 vs vs the avs in 99, just to lose the series as Osgood was injured. Howard has played lights out this season. He is not a young goalie, he is a veteran and as I say he is a top 3/5/10 goalie in the league THIS SEASON, consider the games played, sv%, gaa, winning %, defence in front of him.
Sure he has had his bad games and season and his playoff record is very bad and thin. But taking a hot hand is a smart move.

Ok, tell me this. If you were a GM, what team would you have to be running right now to give the Wings a 1st round pick for Howard?

I want to be crystal clear here, I am NOT bashing Howard or looking down on Howard. The guy is one of my favourite players, I think he is underrated and when I got to games I legit wear a Howard jersey.

I'm just trying to look at this from the other side, what teams do you think the GM's are thinking, "lets give a 1st for and upgrade or insurance in net".

 

[Henkka]

Ok, tell me this. If you were a GM, what team would you have to be running right now to give the Wings a 1st round pick for Howard?

I want to be crystal clear here, I am NOT bashing Howard or looking down on Howard. The guy is one of my favourite players, I think he is underrated and when I got to games I legit wear a Howard jersey.

I'm just trying to look at this from the other side, what teams do you think the GM's are thinking, "lets give a 1st for and upgrade or insurance in net".

It has been all the time some team, which will have a season-ending injury for their starter.

At the moment there's not that kind of team.

We can't predict that kind of injury. If it happens, it happens, and it enables the scenario.

 

[kliq]

It has been all the time some team, which will have a season-ending injury for their starter.

At the moment there's not that kind of team.

We can't predict that kind of injury. If it happens, it happens, and it enables the scenario.

Exactly my point, its out of the Wings hands right now.

 

[Claypool]

The question here is "could they have gotten a good deal for Howard done earlier in the season". My gut tells me no, I could be wrong though. Are there any specific teams you think would have traded for Howard earlier in the season?

They were never going to get a 1st round pick for Howard. His deal was always going to be a lower draft pick that can increase based on performance numbers (games played, wins, etc.). This was going to be the case whether they deal him tomorrow or three months ago. There was no point in holding Howard for as long as they have.

The problem now is that fewer teams need goaltending, since more teams have decided to sell. This is lowers the chance of a bidding war. This also lowers the odds of the Red Wings finishing last. Holding onto Howard is a lose-lose situation.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

They were never going to get a 1st round pick for Howard. His deal was always going to be a lower draft pick that can increase based on performance numbers (games played, wins, etc.). This was going to be the case whether they deal him tomorrow or three months ago. There was no point in holding Howard for as long as they have.

The problem now is that fewer teams need goaltending, since more teams have decided to sell. This is lowers the chance of a bidding war. This also lowers the odds of the Red Wings finishing last. Holding onto Howard is a lose-lose situation.

Teams would not want to trade for Jimmy Howard back then. They all still had their starters.

And teams do not want to trade for a goalie like Jimmy if they don't know that they're tracking towards the playoffs. For a rental like him, you either had your starter go down with an injury and that is what would cost you the playoffs, so you jump to fill the hole. OR you're in a solid playoff position and you want a solid #2 to protect yourself against overusing your starter or as an in case someone like Braden Holtby throws up a tomato in the first couple games of a series.

Why do so many people not get that certain players are really on the market only at certain times. It's not like Holland skipped over a worthwhile package 3 months ago. That offer wasn't there.

Holding onto Howard is the reasonable solution and trading him for a good return is the optimal solution.

Teams need to have some pieces on them that let their players be competitive even during a rebuild. The Wings are much further ahead with keeping Howard unless they get a return they like. Having a goalie that they can trust and who they know will generally save the puck if the team does their job in front of him is a gigantic boon to guys like Hronek or Cholo or Rasmussen, where you can say "hey, that goal that went in was on you, rookie. You hung Jimmy out to dry. Next time, play it this way to give him a fair shot and the puck will stay out of the net." Put a worthless **** goalie in the net (a la Vesa Toskala) and you have a team where there is always an excuse for the young guys. Lastly, people need to get off of this complaining about things that make the team better tack. The Wings are within striking distance of last place right now with their whole contingent. They don't "need" to do anything to this roster to be bad this year.

 

[kliq]

They were never going to get a 1st round pick for Howard. His deal was always going to be a lower draft pick that can increase based on performance numbers (games played, wins, etc.). This was going to be the case whether they deal him tomorrow or three months ago. There was no point in holding Howard for as long as they have.

The problem now is that fewer teams need goaltending, since more teams have decided to sell. This is lowers the chance of a bidding war. This also lowers the odds of the Red Wings finishing last. Holding onto Howard is a lose-lose situation.

The problem with that, is it take's two to make a trade. I'd rather the Wings have held on to Howard in the fall, then trade him for a mid round pick (if they even could).
As for a performance based trade, I highly doubt any team is going to put that out there in September, is there any precedent for that?

If the options are, settle for a 3rd or 4th round pick in the fall, OR, wait and maybe get a 1st rounder at the TDL, I wait every time. Losing out on a mid round pick doesn't hurt us, possibly landing a good pick though could really help us. And again, who was in the market for a goalie in September.

 

[Oddbob]

I think saying "definitely" is a little overly optimistic. I believe it all depends on an injury.

Here are the teams that are currently in the playoffs, and their starting goalie:

Tampa Bay - Andrei Vasilevskiy
Toronto - Frederik Andersen
Montreal - Carey Price
NYI - Robin Lehner
Washington - Braden Holtby
Pittsburgh - Matt Murray
Boston - Tuukka Rask
Columbus - Sergei Bobrovsky

Winnipeg - Connor Hellebuyck
Nashville - Pekka Rinne
Dallas - Ben Bishop
Calgary - David Rittich
San Jose - Martin Jones
Vegas - Marc-Andre Fleury
Minnesota - Devan Dubnyk
Vancouver - Jacob Markstrom

I cant see TB, Toronto, Montreal, Washington, Pittsburgh, Boston, Columbus, Winnipeg, Nashville, Dallas, San Jose, Vegas, or Minnesota trading a 1st for Howard as all these teams have definitive starters who are either at the same level, or at a higher level then Howard. I know guys like Murray and Holby are struggling, but I can't see their respective teams bringing in Howard for a 1st, and moving these former cup winning goalies into a backup role.

That leaves NYI, Calgary, and Vancouver. Lehner definitely has not shown through his career that he is at Howard's level, however this year he ranks #1 in both Save % and GAA, so I cant see them trading for Howard unless he takes a nose dive in the next month. Calgary is in a similar situation, Rittich is no household name, however he is a top 10 goalie this year. Lastly that leaves Vancouver, if they were legit contenders, I could see it as Howard is definitely an upgrade over Markstrom, however they are also a re-building team, would they really give up a 1st so they can MAYBE win a round or two, if that.

Unless one of these goalies gets hurt for the season, I think the return for Howard is going to be low, and I think people should lower their expectations. I hope I am wrong, but when you break it down, I just cant see a scenario (again baring injury) where he lands us a 1st, or even a 2nd. I think he likely goes for a 3rd, or if its even worse then that, maybe Holland just hangs on to him.

I guess the wild card is a team on the outside looking in making the move. Maybe an Edmonton, Colorado, or Carolina? But for any of those teams to give up a 1st, it just seems like a bad move. It would be funny though if Carolina made a move, reuniting Howard with Mrazek lol.

What does everyone else think?

Not necessarily disagreeing, but Martin Jones has been pretty bad for San Jose as far as I know. I don't think we will get a 1st, but I still think 3 or 4 of these teams will at least think of making a move to prop up their goaltending.

 

[jkutswings]

All fair points. But at the same time, I'm not hanging up on a team offering a pair of 2nd rounders instead of the stated pricetag of a 1st. Just keep working the phones and see what you can leverage. If two 2's ends up being the best offer, I would take it, and hope to work some additional magic before or at the draft.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

All fair points. But at the same time, I'm not hanging up on a team offering a pair of 2nd rounders instead of the stated pricetag of a 1st. Just keep working the phones and see what you can leverage. If two 2's ends up being the best offer, I would take it, and hope to work some additional magic before or at the draft.

And neither is Holland. But if you say you only want a single 2nd round pick, you're not going to get two. You're not going to get a second and a third. You will get a second round pick.

Setting a high price you don't expect is part of working the phones and working the negotiation. There is no room to leverage if you ask for your actual desired/expected price.

 

[jkutswings]

And neither is Holland. But if you say you only want a single 2nd round pick, you're not going to get two. You're not going to get a second and a third. You will get a second round pick.

Setting a high price you don't expect is part of working the phones and working the negotiation. There is no room to leverage if you ask for your actual desired/expected price.

Agreed, and if that's what happens it's AOK. I'm cool with a line in the sand, just not an edict carved in stone.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Agreed, and if that's what happens it's AOK. I'm cool with a line in the sand, just not an edict carved in stone.

Yeah, and I also think it's kind of a "don't try to rip me off with a fourth round pick.." idea. Holland wants to make sure if he's fielding calls for Jimmy that they are worth his time to field. Because I'll be honest, getting a mid round pick for Howard would be VERY disappointing as a rental. A mid round pick a couple years ago when he still had 15M and 3 years of contract left, ok. But essentially 1.67M in cap hit (at the TDL) which the Wings could easily reduce to under 1M by retaining) for a goalie that does what Howard does is a pittance.

 

[kliq]

Not necessarily disagreeing, but Martin Jones has been pretty bad for San Jose as far as I know. I don't think we will get a 1st, but I still think 3 or 4 of these teams will at least think of making a move to prop up their goaltending.

Agreed on the 3rd/4th, I definitely think a team would give that up for insurance in the playoffs.

 

[14ari13]

I

Ok, tell me this. If you were a GM, what team would you have to be running right now to give the Wings a 1st round pick for Howard?

I want to be crystal clear here, I am NOT bashing Howard or looking down on Howard. The guy is one of my favourite players, I think he is underrated and when I got to games I legit wear a Howard jersey.

I'm just trying to look at this from the other side, what teams do you think the GM's are thinking, "lets give a 1st for and upgrade or insurance in net".

I say that Howard is a top 3/5/10 goalie in the league this season. Every smart GM should be considering Howard. He plays for his life, he is a veteran. He could definitely be a steal for a conteder. Now we all know a 1st rounder for top teams is nothing special, very probably a bust. When you pick after top 10, there is a little chance you get something good. While getting a hot veteran goalie who has something to prove might be a very smart deal.
We will see. I will be back and tell you I told you so.
We either get a 1st, or a team fails in the playoffs because of goaltending.

 

[newfy]

It would be nice if Mike Smith would get hurt again so Calgary would trade for Howard. Rittich isnt experienced and the Flames have pissed away good teams in the playoffs because of bad goal tending. Now that theyre a legit contender I would hate to have it happen again. Howard would be a good get for them.

 

[Henkka]

Bobrovsky to Florida heating up.

I really hope that trade happens, then Howard could be the rental fix for Blue Jackets.

It's only 200 miles to Columbus, Jimmy doesn't have to be very far away from his family for ~3 months.

 

[kliq]

It would be nice if Mike Smith would get hurt again so Calgary would trade for Howard. Rittich isnt experienced and the Flames have pissed away good teams in the playoffs because of bad goal tending. Now that theyre a legit contender I would hate to have it happen again. Howard would be a good get for them.

If a team is going to go for it, I'd Calgary is our best shot. Best thing for us is if Rittich starts playing poorly this month.
They are legit contenders this year, and it would be a waste of a season if their goalies are exposed in say the 1st round.