Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
- Jun 26, 2007
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Dale Tallon said Dorion wanted a roster player back for Hoffman while all he was willing to give were picks.
Don't let that get in the way of your delusions
Confirmed with Link: Randy Lee Resigns
- Thread starter DrakeAndJosh
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Dale Tallon said Dorion wanted a roster player back for Hoffman while all he was willing to give were picks.
Don't let that get in the way of your delusions
Believe it Bert. I know it's crazy that someone wouldn't see things the way you do, but here we are....
bert
Registered User
Why would they want more salary when they can't pay Duchene Karlsson and Stone?... Makes no god damn sense. No one is that stupid. Take the picks sign your elite talent. Its one way or the other. If you believe the B.S hyperbole that Dorion and Melnyk keep giving us i dunno what to tell you. Unless you think Boedker is a better player than those three.... In which management apparently does? Which outline their incompetence. Or how about this one, how do you justify forcing a team to take Ryan while diminishing Karlssons value? Why not take the picks from Hoffman, keep Ryan and maximize trading the best player in franchise historys value.Dale Tallon said Dorion wanted a roster player back for Hoffman while all he was willing to give were picks.
Don't let that get in the way of your delusions
Just a plethora of reasons why trading for Boedker makes no sense given the current direction of the franchise. However when the team says they wanted a roster player you guys buy it hook line and sinker....
Dorion got absolutely fleeced and embarrassed in that sequence.
Another option trading Hoffman was to manage your assets, take the picks sign a free agent. This is Dorions absolute biggest flaw, gives away assets like candy. Just horrible. He has now diminished the value of Hoffman, Karlsson, Stone, Duchene. Oh yeah for those keeping track Murray is the reason Dorion even has those assets.
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Ray Kinsella
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- Feb 13, 2018
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Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
- Jun 26, 2007
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Other people speaking another language irritates you?
I just love how much advantage people who espouse these points of view give me. I never even asked to speak other languages, it happened because I moved a lot as a child and now I get to be treated better than you because I'm not close minded.
Sometimes the world is fair, what do you know.
RAFI BOMB
Registered User
- May 11, 2016
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Other people speaking another language irritates you?
I just love how much advantage people who espouse these points of view give me. I never even asked to speak other languages, it happened because I moved a lot as a child and now I get to be treated better than you because I'm not close minded.
Sometimes the world is fair, what do you know.
No, I don't have a problem with people speaking other languages. The thing that personally annoys me is that before Dorion became the GM the Senators were pretty much only English. Now in many interviews with the coach or GM there are parts exclusively in French which is kind of annoying. Also during games everything gets announced twice. It more has to do with my impatience. It is kind of liking watching a show or clip on youtube and then having a commercial pop up. I don't want to watch the commercial so it is annoying if I have to sit through it or wait to skip the ad.
If I was a French speaking Canadian, I would possibly hold a much different opinion. Overall it seems like a smart business strategy. But at the same time it seems reasonable to be slightly annoyed by it, probably like how some French speaking Sens fans were potentially annoyed that they didn't have the opportunity to hear calls and interviews in French before.
Now that Randy Lee isn’t with the Senators, why not just shut down this thread and move on with our lives? Lol
BatherSeason
Registered User
Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
- Jun 26, 2007
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As I francophone I can assure you: nothing Dorion says in French is different from what he says in English. The only thing that it does is make interviews longer because he has to repeat himself. In fact, I'd be hard pressed to consider Dorion a Francophone, his French is really, really bad.
RAFI BOMB
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His English isn't very good either lol. Overall he is just a bad communicator and he isn't articulate at all which is surprising for someone in that kind of role. I would have thought that it was a prerequisite for that position to be a strong communicator.
The whole French thing is a minor inconvenience for me and I am griping more than I should be. The main issue was whether we should replace Lee with a bilingual candidate. My perspective is focus on qualifications and competency first. Then if one if the top candidates is bilingual the organization can evaluate the value add of that skill and whether they are sacrificing the opportunity to hire a more competent and qualified candidate or not in learning towards bilingualism as an asset. I just don't want to see this organization pass up on more qualified and compotent candidates in order to select a bilingual one.
Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
- Jun 26, 2007
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With all due respect, you went pretty deep considering all Bonk said was "I think this guy is in the running because he's qualified, he's from the area and he speaks French".
No one ever said anything about needing to prioritize speaking French in the selection process.
RAFI BOMB
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Yeah, I likely did go too deep. I am pretty sure Montreal has some policy such as this and that prevents them from hiring English speaking candidates.
This is quickly getting off topic, but I think that I likely have some distorted perspectives of francophone Canadians that leads me to be biased against them. I was a kid during the Quebec referendum so my early exposure to the francophone population was that of separatists that didn't want to be Canadians. As I was growing up there seemed to be a divide between English speaking Canadians and francophone Canadians, and given that I am English I likely heard a lot more characterizations of french Canadians than anything resembling accurate portrayals. I even noticed that in Quebec the provincial flag is more often used and appeared to be more valued than the Canadian flag. So I guess I grew up in an environment that had a Canada vs Quebec opposition going on. There is even still the Bloc Quebecois that promotes a Quebec nationalism and continues to push for Quebec Sovereignty. So it appears that the divide is still going on and that a portion of the francophone community is actually perpetuating it.
I don't have as much exposure to the francophone community and I don't know as much about the francophones who value being a Canadian ahead of Quebec nationalism. So in part I don't tend to associate French with Canadian, I tend to associate it more with being anti-Canadian. I would be happy to learn more and learn to appreciate the pro-Canadian francophone community if you feel you can educate me. You can PM me if you would like or we can create another thread to discuss it. I could see this being a frustrating part of being a francophone and some stigmas or distorted perspectives that people like myself may have. But I am certainly open to developing a more accurate perspective.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
I was actually in Montreal for the big "No" rally that took place just prior to the referendum in 1995. There were hundreds of thousands of people there asking the Quebec people to stay in Canada. Busloads of people on the highways headed into Quebec. I cared about the issue, certainly, but it was also skipping a day of high school with parental permission.
Whether it had a significant impact or not is debatable, but I heard from numerous people while I was there who thanked me personally for coming.
The 1995 referendum was a very close thing, as the numbers bear out. But successive generations don't appear to be as concerned with separation. The numbers in favour of separation have dropped. The radical generation that had to fight for their rights in the 50s, 60s and 70s against the anglophone minority are losing steam. If the economy tanks again, maybe you'll see those numbers rise.
But I would say that Quebec in general appears to be relatively content with the system that is in place currently to protect the French language and culture. And let's be fair - Quebec is a pretty unique place in North America, surrounded by so much English.
There will always be separatists in Quebec. But the BQ and the PQ are not what they were, so I think you have to keep that in mind. And some who vote for those parties do so because they believe they will put Quebec's interests first, not necessarily because they want to leave Canada.
One thing you're going to have to watch is the association between "francophone" and "Quebecois".
Not all francophones are from Quebec. There are very strong francophone communities in Ontario, New Brunswick, and in areas out West including Edmonton, Winnipeg and Saskatchewan. I suspect that francophone separatists outside of Quebec are extremely rare.
I've had a lot of exposure to the Franco-Ontarian community and they are an extremely proud group of people who are also proud Canadians and actually extremely annoyed at the condescending attitude they receive from the Quebecois. Francophone communities outside of Quebec are a bit of an inconvenience to nationalists in Quebec because it proves that the French language can be maintained over successive generations outside of the motherland.
One extremely successful individual at a francophone legal conference he attended was told that he had "excellent French" for being from Ontario. Upon being told that he was in fact, a natural francophone, the Quebecois who made the comment was both surprised and dubious. "But you were born in Quebec?"
Another funny anecdote I'll share is about Mrs_NyQuil going out to dinner with some Franco-Ontarian colleagues. The topic of conversation was about how anglophones don't necessarily do enough to learn French. My wife said, "Watch this", and spoke in French to the francophone server. The francophone server immediately switched to English in response. Her colleague was surprised. "Is it always like that?"
They do it to be courteous, I'm sure, but it's hard to get any better when they switch to English upon hearing an accent. I have the same situation happen in my work consulting for the federal government. Sometimes I'll just keep speaking French for the hell of it.
Anyway, I respect you for your post and laying out your mindset. It's a brave thing to do. But statistically speaking, the francophone community in Canada has never been more Canadian.
When it comes to official bilingualism, it's a loaded issue. It costs a great deal of money in terms of translation and French training, and it does impact on hiring processes.
The rule of thumb in the Federal Government used to be, if you manage people, or if you deal with the public, you have to be bilingual. Is it fair for a anglophone or francophone citizen to have to interact with their government in their 2nd language? Or, as an employee, interact with a boss who doesn't necessarily understand you very well? The question of how far down a manager has to be bilingual is an interesting one.
I don't think there's a simple answer. My only suggestion would be to learn French, and encourage your kids to do so. Living in Ottawa, we have that opportunity - it's much more difficult in other places.
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FunkySeeFunkyDoo
Registered User
So here's my story, which is similar but with a twist.
About 25 years ago I went on a ski trip with my brother and his wife and some of their friends to the "Trois Vallee" ski region in France. It's about 3 or 4 hours south of Paris. My sister in law was dealing with the guy who rented us the chalet and there was some issue on the first day that she had to meet with him about to discuss.
Of course, he was from the area and was French... not French-Canadian, but French. After they met she described the encounter as her speaking in French to him and him consistently responding to her in English ... even though his English wasn't that good, and she found him difficult to understand. They continued on this way for about a 20 minute conversation.
The twist to the story is that my sister in law is 100% French Canadian, French is her first language... !
RAFI BOMB
Registered User
- May 11, 2016
- 7,389
- 7,646
I was actually in Montreal for the big "No" rally that took place just prior to the referendum in 1995. There were hundreds of thousands of people there asking the Quebec people to stay in Canada. Busloads of people on the highways headed into Quebec. I cared about the issue, certainly, but it was also skipping a day of high school with parental permission.
Whether it had a significant impact or not is debatable, but I heard from numerous people while I was there who thanked me personally for coming.
The 1995 referendum was a very close thing, as the numbers bear out. But successive generations don't appear to be as concerned with separation. The numbers in favour of separation have dropped. The radical generation that had to fight for their rights in the 50s, 60s and 70s against the anglophone minority are losing steam. If the economy tanks again, maybe you'll see those numbers rise.
But I would say that Quebec in general appears to be relatively content with the system that is in place currently to protect the French language and culture. And let's be fair - Quebec is a pretty unique place in North America, surrounded by so much English.
There will always be separatists in Quebec. But the BQ and the PQ are not what they were, so I think you have to keep that in mind. And some who vote for those parties do so because they believe they will put Quebec's interests first, not necessarily because they want to leave Canada.
One thing you're going to have to watch is the association between "francophone" and "Quebecois".
Not all francophones are from Quebec. There are very strong francophone communities in Ontario, New Brunswick, and in areas out West including Edmonton, Winnipeg and Saskatchewan. I suspect that francophone separatists outside of Quebec are extremely rare.
I've had a lot of exposure to the Franco-Ontarian community and they are an extremely proud group of people who are also proud Canadians and actually extremely annoyed at the condescending attitude they receive from the Quebecois. Francophone communities outside of Quebec are a bit of an inconvenience to nationalists in Quebec because it proves that the French language can be maintained over successive generations outside of the motherland.
One extremely successful individual at a francophone legal conference he attended was told that he had "excellent French" for being from Ontario. Upon being told that he was in fact, a natural francophone, the Quebecois who made the comment was both surprised and dubious. "But you were born in Quebec?"
Another funny anecdote I'll share is about Mrs_NyQuil going out to dinner with some Franco-Ontarian colleagues. The topic of conversation was about how anglophones don't necessarily do enough to learn French. My wife said, "Watch this", and spoke in French to the francophone server. The francophone server immediately switched to English in response. Her colleague was surprised. "Is it always like that?"
They do it to be courteous, I'm sure, but it's hard to get any better when they switch to English upon hearing an accent. I have the same situation happen in my work consulting for the federal government. Sometimes I'll just keep speaking French for the hell of it.
Anyway, I respect you for your post and laying out your mindset. It's a brave thing to do. But statistically speaking, the francophone community in Canada has never been more Canadian.
When it comes to official bilingualism, it's a loaded issue. It costs a great deal of money in terms of translation and French training, and it does impact on hiring processes.
The rule of thumb in the Federal Government used to be, if you manage people, or if you deal with the public, you have to be bilingual. Is it fair for a anglophone or francophone citizen to have to interact with their government in their 2nd language? Or, as an employee, interact with a boss who doesn't necessarily understand you very well? The question of how far down a manager has to be bilingual is an interesting one.
I don't think there's a simple answer. My only suggestion would be to learn French, and encourage your kids to do so. Living in Ottawa, we have that opportunity - it's much more difficult in other places.
Hey man, thanks for the thorough and detailed response. I really appreciate the time and effort you took to write all of that out for me. In my first reading I certainly learned a lot and it has given me a lot to think about. This really provided me what I needed to seriously challenge the assumptions and distorted perspectives that I had. I see this as a positive thing because a somewhat public dialogue about this kind of thing not only gives me a chance to learn and grow but it also may provide an opportunity for others who similarly are holding onto flawed beliefs to learn and grow as well.
Cheers
Yup. My wife is so fluent that francophones think she is francophone and anglophones believe her to be anglophone. It was because her dad spoke English, her mom spoke French and my wife went to French public school. I am bilingual but have a hard time expressing myself. I am so jealous of my wife's ability to switch effortlessly back and forth. She doesn't have to translate. We felt so strongly about giving our kids that gift that all three of my kids go to French public school. Living in Ottawa, it just makes sense and opens doors for them.
NyQuil
Big F$&*in Q
I've heard stories from French-Canadians that I know who have been treated rather shabbily in France because of their accents. My understanding is that it sounds rather nasal and rural to the French.
Meanwhile, the French are impressed with the effort from Canadian anglophones speaking French with English accents.
I've also skied in France when I lived in Europe - Les Arcs, Tignes and Val d'Isere. I'd love to go back.
Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Dale Tallon said Dorion wanted a roster player back for Hoffman while all he was willing to give were picks.
Don't let that get in the way of your delusions
Ice-Tray is right, some "fans" WORK SO HARD to create drama around the team. It's like they were media puppets. Of course, medias will do that because that's their job : sensationalism. It's crazy how people are gullible and drink their kool aid.
There was 2 real dramas around the team and it has been fixed. Mike Hoffman (actually, his fiancee) and Randy Lee. They are no longer part of the organization.
The rumors around EK? What about Stamkos, Tavares, etc? Of course, star players approaching free agency will always attract a ton of rumors, there's nothing special about it. Here in Montreal, there's been even more crazy rumors around Price, Weber and Pacioretty. Only the medias create drama around it and gullible fans fall for it.
Melnyk? Yes he might be one of most dislikeable personality in the sport and it seems like he is not strong enough financially to support the team but this is nothing new. Melnyk himself saved the team from bankruptcy 15 years ago. Ottawa already lost their team in 1934 before coming back 58 years later. That kind of market is always on the brink of financials problems.
==============================================
Now, regarding the Mike Hoffman trade, the drama here is ridiculous. Florida is the lucky team here (if the Hoffmans don't bring off-ice problems) as they got a Top-6 forward for picks, but there was a risk coming with it.
San Jose got a 2nd rounder, a 4th and two 5th BUT lost a 6th, a 7th, Bergman and Boedker. They really didn't get that much, just that they didn't need Boedker on their payroll as they have several younger cheaper forwards pushing for ice-time. Basically got a 2nd for him.
Ottawa got an average prospect and a late pick but also an useful forward making ONLY 3.0 M$ per year for the next 2 seasons. While he is not as good as Hoffman offensively, he is a much better 2-way player. But Boedker is capable of producing offensively, he has an average of 16 goals, 44 pts per 82 games in the last 6 years, including the last 2 years in San Jose where he was played as a 3rd liner. Considering the situation and the already impressive depth of the prospect pool, it was much smarter to get a cheap player like Boedker than a freaking 2nd round pick.
Again drama for nothing, but when you start analyzing in deep, it's easy to see.
BondraTime
Registered User
He was quite literally waiver bait for them. They wanted to lose him, if even for nothing. The fact they were able to turn him and a nothing prospect into those picks was robbery; they just wanted to get out of his contract, everything else is gravy. He's better than waiver fodder, but they needed to get rid of money, and he was the guy they deemed fit to let go. Bergman was like us letting go of Englund, means absolutely nothing.
We do have a nice prospect pool, but for a team in the position the Sens are in around the league, having the ~10th best prospect pool shouldn't make us not want to add 2nd round calibre picks...
Why is it smarter to get a 29 year old who will not be here any longer than 2 years when we are in no position to compete instead of a 2nd rounder (Chlapik/Formenton/Gagne/Tychonik/Dahlen since 2015) + that would be with the team while it is actually looking to make waves in a few years time? Because we needed players to fill the gaps from now till his contract expires?
Drama hasn’t been taken care of. I think Andy’s quote is evidence of that
Yup. If he said he can't wait to get going and that this will be a great year, that'd be the regular thing to say. (they always say that)
But he basically said 'I don't want to deal with all these millennials and their nonsense. Hopefully the drama stops and we can just play hockey.' He even removed himself from the core group by explicitly stating that he lives in Florida and has no contact and all he cares about is doing his job. And he keeps his family in Florida. This sounds like a pro athlete upholding his contract because he's making lots of bank, not a pro athlete who wants to be a true part of the team.
BondraTime
Registered User
Ongoing drama
Drama of being 30th place team. Check
Drama of having no visible plan? Check
Drama of not signing a single UFA to improve the team. Check
Drama of not having 1st in 2019. Check
Drama of Erik Karlsson being UFA at seasons end. Check
Drama of Erik Karlsson Trade Mania. Check
Drama of Mark Stone being UFA at seasons end. Check
Drama of Matt Duchene being UFA at seasons end. Check
Drama of not having an Asst. GM a month before the season. Check
Drama of having no support staff whatsoever for GM. Check.
Drama of ownership. Check
Taken care of Drama
Mike Hoffman traded
AHL team dismantled
Asst. GM let go for being a pervert
I have no clue how anyone could think the drama has been taken care of. This whole year is basically a soap opera.
Sensung
Registered User
- Oct 3, 2017
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it does make sense and open doors for them and congratulations to you for sending them.
my issue or challenge with bilingualism is how anglos pick it up. my kids are all finished high school. they all went thru immersion. none of them consider themselves bilingual. their knowledge of French is pretty darn good but they really weren't ever taught to speak it. and with my wife and I both uni anglos there really wasn't any opportunity to speak at home. sports? nope. all English. tv? nope. not if you want to watch what your friends are watching. Movies? nope. and on it goes.
can kids from uni anglo families become bilingual? sure. but they have to set it as a clear objective and plow thru opportunities outside the education system because on its own the education system is not making them bilingual.
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