OT: Queen Elizabeth II Dies at 96

[Fourier]

I'll take some heat but I think its a complete waste of money. How much of our taxes go to a Governor General of Canada? Lets face it, the days of royalty are over. Im curious how much it costs to keep that Royal Family going? When Carrot-Top Harry was staying in Vancouver, how much did that cost us? Then he moves.
I can see them spending money on a better Dental plan for them but thats it

With respect to the UK I'd be willing to bet big money that the monarchy is a substantial net positive. It is one of the UK's premier tourist attractions.

https://brandfinance.com/wp-content/uploads/1/brand_finance_monarchy_press_release.pdf

For Canada, the cost is negligible (well under $100M per year) in comparison to the size of our economy and to the costs that would be incurred to end our formal relationship. The latter would be immense (many billions) given how complicated the process would be. So from a purely financial/ pragmatic point of view, keeping the current status quo is certainly the right decision.

I suspect that there are a lot of people who are modestly against maintaining ties with the monarchy, but who would not be in favour of going forward with the changes if the knew the real cost. As such removing the connection to the monarchy would have to be driven by widespread and deeply held philosophical reasons to make sense. At this point these do not exist in sufficient numbers to justify the extraordinary actions it would take to amend the Constitution and to deal with all of the consequences that would bring about.

 

[Barrsy]

Someone who was not voted in to power by the people should have no power.

We have something Called the Supreme court of canada whose sole role is to deal with constitutional issues

Currently the LT Gov of Alberta has inserted herself in to the UCP leadership race.

Well considering residential schools have been around longer than canada as a country's yes the monarchy is directly responsible for the genocide of the Indegenous people they conquered

And the Indian Act received royal assent also know as the Monarchys blessing

You have to educate yourself on who does what, in a legal & practical sense, in a parliamentary democracy.
For some reason, I am not hopeful.

 

[Drivesaitl]

U said the Commonwealth. Yes, England. One of the toughest military forces in the world history. We dont owe anything to the Monarchy . I stand by my comment, waste of money

I didn't raise specific issue with what you stated or cite it. I could. Again, it matters not what you or I, or anybody posting here thinks about the monarchy as it pertains to what I wrote. Its indisputable that during the WW's that Commonwealth Soldiers, be they from Britain, or Australia, or Canada, etc, fought for "King and Country" Whether you believe that is besides the point, and 80-110yrs removed from that reality. If you want to try to dispute that point fine. Good luck.

This is the difficulty with inserting present day mindset into century ago reality. The reality is that we are free now because of those that committed to fight for King and Country, for the Commonwealth, for the fabric of what the firmament meant to people. We live in a different era now where such allegiance is not understood. I get it.

 

[K1984]

Someone who was not voted in to power by the people should have no power.

We have something Called the Supreme court of canada whose sole role is to deal with constitutional issues

Currently the LT Gov of Alberta has inserted herself in to the UCP leadership race.

Well considering residential schools have been around longer than canada as a country's yes the monarchy is directly responsible for the genocide of the Indegenous people they conquered

And the Indian Act received royal assent also know as the Monarchys blessing

Wrong to various degrees on pretty much every point so I'll leave it at that.

 

[snag]

As much as this progressive viewpoint might be agreeable on the surface, as soon as you dig a little bit you hit a lot of stumbling blocks.

Firstly, to remove the monarchy means changing the constitution. That means calling a constitutional convention (a la the Charlottetown Accords) in which you’d either need the premiers that represent greater than 50% of the Canadian population to agree to this or do a nationwide referendum to settle the matter. This would cost hundreds of millions. Plus, getting the 10 premiers to agree on removing the monarchy might be near impossible. I don’t think you could get all 10 to agree on what sandwiches to serve at lunch.

Next, virtually all legally binding documents in the government would need to be re-written since a large portion either have the monarch as a signatory or are between the monarch and the citizenry. A large portion of government offices, police forces, etc would need to be renamed and their governing document re-written. This would be a massive effort with an almost infinite scope. Just getting this done alone would be in the billions of dollars.

This sort of effort has happened in other countries, yes, but not one of the scale and size of Canada. It would be a multi-billion dollar effort that would virtually change nothing for the average citizen. This country has a lot bigger fish to fry than a glorified name change.

That’s why at least I’m in favour of preserving it. It’s part of the furniture and doesn’t really affect anything or cost anything.

We have spent how many billions on equality. Inclusion. Racism. Democracy. Then we have them.

White, elitist heads of state through birthright.

Time to put our money where our mouths keep flapping. Otherwise what meaning does any of our other efforts to better our society truly mean?

 

[PuckG]

We have spent how many billions on equality. Inclusion. Racism. Democracy. Then we have them.

White, elitist heads of state through birthright.

Time to put our money where our mouths keep flapping. Otherwise what meaning does any of our other efforts to better our society truly mean?

Nailed it.

 

[OfCorsiDid]

1000% this. The only argument for getting rid of the Monarchy at this point is "I don't really get it" while there is a laundry list of reasons to remain as you pointed out. Until there is a compelling reason to leave it isn't worth close to the effort.

A re-write of the constitution alone would probably blow the country apart at this point in time.

We have spent how many billions on equality. Inclusion. Racism. Democracy. Then we have them.

White, elitist heads of state through birthright.

Time to put our money where our mouths keep flapping. Otherwise what meaning does any of our other efforts to better our society truly mean?

And spending billions on an unneeded governmental change and rewriting all of our laws while people in the country are starving, struggling and being displaced by climate disasters is “putting our money where our our mouth is”.

Yeah ok.

 

[K1984]

I was waiting for the "they're white colonizers!" reason to rear it's ugly head, which other than the fact that it is no longer true (other than being white), it demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the Monarchy has done over the past 80ish years.

Elizabeth and her father oversaw a major reduction in the size and scope of the Commonwealth during their reigns and that isn't likely to change with the current King or any of the heirs in line to the throne. This version of the Monarchy are strictly de-colonizers and have respected the wishes of every Commonwealth nation's position of the Monarchy, good or bad in the Monarchy's favour.

Unfortunately context gets thrown out the window because their ancestors over 200 years ago were colonialists.

 

[Drivesaitl]

We have spent how many billions on equality. Inclusion. Racism. Democracy. Then we have them.

White, elitist heads of state through birthright.

Time to put our money where our mouths keep flapping. Otherwise what meaning does any of our other efforts to better our society truly mean?

Pretty much of a rabble comment.

Most if not every race of people has had some kind of lineage or deference to certain nobility, or Kings, or gods, or deity.

We happen to be part of the British Commonwealth, and historically and constitutionally linked to nobility that happens to be white.

Does this remove that Canada is among the best of the nations on Earth in what you cite? Most Nations wouldn't even be having a conversation on any of what you mention.

But hey, despite being one of the best if the not the best nation states on Earth we hear these constant complaints about Canada, or the Commonwealth we descended from not being perfect.

I was waiting for the "they're white colonizers!" reason to rear it's ugly head, which other than the fact that it is not longer true (other than being white), it demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the Monarchy has done over the past 80ish years.

Elizabeth and her father oversaw a major reduction in the size and scope of the Commonwealth during their reigns and that isn't likely to change with the current King or any of the heirs in line to the throne. This version of the Monarchy are strictly de-colonizers and have respected the wishes of every Commonwealth nation's position of the Monarchy, good or bad in the Monarchy's favour.

Unfortunately context gets thrown out the window because their ancestors over 200 years ago were colonialists.

Yeah, so was I. Took 24 hrs at least. The history of the world is colonizing, war, and sovereign might. Really its the history of humanity, and any race has involved in conquest. Looks like nobody got my point about things being relative and that Fascist conquest, Colonizing and recolonizing would have been a whole lot worse...The lack of perspective on display is troubling.

 

[Oilers in NS]

If finances are the issue do you pay any credence to the billions it would cost to change? Never mind the incredible political and social cost.

A lot more than $300k one time.

If it costs is billions to change, how much is it actually costing us?

 

[OfCorsiDid]

Pretty much of a rabble comment.

Most if not every race of people has had some kind of lineage or deference to certain nobility, or Kings, or gods, or deity.

We happen to be part of the British Commonwealth, and historically and constitutionally linked to nobility that happens to be white.

Does this remove that Canada is among the best of the nations on Earth in what you cite? Most Nations wouldn't even be having a conversation on any of what you mention.

But hey, despite being one of the best if the not the best nation states on Earth we hear these constant complaints about Canada, or the Commonwealth we descended from not being perfect.


Yeah, so was I. Took 24 hrs at least.

Also another good point is if by cracking open the constitution do we open up ourselves up the dissolution of the federation itself?

There’s still popular nationalistic fervour in Quebec and there’s been a notable increase in it in the Prairie provinces as well. Additionally, the Indian Act and all Treaties with Indigenous communities are between the crown and the communities not Canada itself. If these acts are null and void does the indigenous populace sue for independence?

Lots to consider.

 

[OfCorsiDid]

If it costs is billions to change, how much is it actually costing us?

I mean realistically it’s just the cost of the GG’s household and the salary of the GG and Lt. Gov of each province. But realistically you’d need to have an office to replace both of those roles anyway so the costs would be the same.

Then I guess it’s the royal tours, but that’s completely at the whim of the Federal Government, they probably could tell them not to come or to pay their own way.

My honest estimate would be that removing the monarchy would cost around 50-100 billion dollars stretched over 5-10 years. This doesn’t even include the thousands of court cases that will need to be settled.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Also another good point is if by cracking open the constitution do we open up ourselves up the dissolution of the federation itself?

There’s still popular nationalistic fervour in Quebec and there’s been a notable increase in it in the Prairie provinces as well. Additionally, the Indian Act and all Treaties with Indigenous communities are between the crown and the communities not Canada itself. If these acts are null and void does the indigenous populace sue for independence?

Lots to consider.

Of course. Nation states or collectives rarely even approach the relative position we find ourselves in Canada even being free enough to write about any of this or ponder our present federal state. Yet theres no other nation that is as diligent in self proclaiming our faults as we are. Its a bit of an ironic Canadian specific milieu.

Yeah. when such a rare and fragile state exists its best to keep it intact.

 

[K1984]

If it costs is billions to change, how much is it actually costing us?

Far less than Billions. Not even $100M annually actually.

A drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the nation likely unwinding in the middle of constitutional negotiations to become a republic.

Also another good point is if by cracking open the constitution do we open up ourselves up the dissolution of the federation itself?

There’s still popular nationalistic fervour in Quebec and there’s been a notable increase in it in the Prairie provinces as well. Additionally, the Indian Act and all Treaties with Indigenous communities are between the crown and the communities not Canada itself. If these acts are null and void does the indigenous populace sue for independence?

Lots to consider.

100%

I would put the odds at the Federation surviving a re-write of the constitution at about 1% in today's climate.

 

[snag]

I was waiting for the "they're white colonizers!" reason to rear it's ugly head, which other than the fact that it is no longer true (other than being white), it demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the Monarchy has done over the past 80ish years.

Elizabeth and her father oversaw a major reduction in the size and scope of the Commonwealth during their reigns and that isn't likely to change with the current King or any of the heirs in line to the throne. This version of the Monarchy are strictly de-colonizers and have respected the wishes of every Commonwealth nation's position of the Monarchy, good or bad in the Monarchy's favour.

Unfortunately context gets thrown out the window because their ancestors over 200 years ago were colonialists.

Pretty much of a rabble comment.

Most if not every race of people has had some kind of lineage or deference to certain nobility, or Kings, or gods, or deity.

We happen to be part of the British Commonwealth, and historically and constitutionally linked to nobility that happens to be white.

Does this remove that Canada is among the best of the nations on Earth in what you cite? Most Nations wouldn't even be having a conversation on any of what you mention.

But hey, despite being one of the best if the not the best nation states on Earth we hear these constant complaints about Canada, or the Commonwealth we descended from not being perfect.


Yeah, so was I. Took 24 hrs at least. The history of the world is colonizing, war, and sovereign might. Really its the history of humanity, and any race has involved in conquest. Looks like nobody got my point about things being relative and that Fascist conquest, Colonizing and recolonizing would have been a whole lot worse...The lack of perspective on display is troubling.

Wasn't making a statement on colonialism. I was making a statement on we as a nation of hypocrites don't know what the f*** we want.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I mean realistically it’s just the cost of the GG’s household and the salary of the GG and Lt. Gov of each province. But realistically you’d need to have an office to replace both of those roles anyway so the costs would be the same.

Then I guess it’s the royal tours, but that’s completely at the whim of the Federal Government, they probably could tell them not to come or to pay their own way.

My honest estimate would be that removing the monarchy would cost around 50-100 billion dollars stretched over 5-10 years. This doesn’t even include the thousands of court cases that will need to be settled.

As @Fourier has pointed out the cost of royalty pays for itself in tourism and commerce. It does here too. What royal tour of Canada hasn't been associated with considerable travel, considerable visitation, hotel rooms booked, assemblies packed, Constituents buying.
This not even covering the incredible copyright wealth of books, films, documentaries, series, on the subject that people the world over eat up. The Crown series alone is of incredible value. Arguably one of the top programs or series in the world. People consume this product and pay dearly for it.

 

[Zenos]

U said the Commonwealth. Yes, England. One of the toughest military forces in the world history. We dont owe anything to the Monarchy . I stand by my comment, waste of money

You are so outside of your element if you believe it was England alone and not the entirety of the British Empire / its Dominions which helped sway the tide in the Second World War. Literally millions of Indians, Canadians, Australians, South Africans, etc took part in the various theatres.

 

[OfCorsiDid]

Wasn't making a statement on colonialism. I was making a statement on we as a nation of hypocrites don't know what the f*** we want.

I hate to say it, but every nation on the globe is a nation of hypocrites.

 

[snag]

I hate to say it, but every nation on the globe is a nation of hypocrites.

Well that's a relief.

 

[Oilers in NS]

You are so outside of your element if you believe it was England alone and not the entirety of the British Empire / its Dominions which helped sway the tide in the Second World War. Literally millions of Indians, Canadians, Australians, South Africans, etc took part in the various theatres.

And where do I say that? Learn to read before u come on here and start bad mouthing people. I said the English military was tough then u throw me into something else not even related to this. Did I say anything any remote to that? Man, proof read something before u go off. WW2 wasn’t even mentioned

I’m just gonna plead the 5th on this one. Lots on here getting all worked up
Let’s put Prince Andrew in for the King

 

[MessierII]

Well considering residential schools have been around longer than canada as a country's yes the monarchy is directly responsible for the genocide of the Indegenous people they conquered

I’ve studied this pretty extensively at a university level and it’s nowhere near that simple. The church had as big if not a bigger role. As did the HBC and the English colonial political machine at the time. To put it all on the monarchy is absurd.

 

[AM]

Also another good point is if by cracking open the constitution do we open up ourselves up the dissolution of the federation itself?

There’s still popular nationalistic fervour in Quebec and there’s been a notable increase in it in the Prairie provinces as well. Additionally, the Indian Act and all Treaties with Indigenous communities are between the crown and the communities not Canada itself. If these acts are null and void does the indigenous populace sue for independence?

Lots to consider.

The republic is nigh. We should build back better.

 

[AM]

I’ve studied this pretty extensively at a university level and it’s nowhere near that simple. The church had as big if not a bigger role. As did the HBC and the English colonial political machine at the time. To put it all on the monarchy is absurd.

Not to mention, my mother went to boarding school. With her grade 12, she got a teaching job in a one room school. She made like 2 dollars a week or something like that. My father had half of grade 12,that would be grade 6. Comparing things that happened 100 years ago to today requires an appreciation of the change in the world in the last 100 years.

 

[PuckG]

I was waiting for the "they're white colonizers!" reason to rear it's ugly head, which other than the fact that it is no longer true (other than being white), it demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the Monarchy has done over the past 80ish years.

Elizabeth and her father oversaw a major reduction in the size and scope of the Commonwealth during their reigns and that isn't likely to change with the current King or any of the heirs in line to the throne. This version of the Monarchy are strictly de-colonizers and have respected the wishes of every Commonwealth nation's position of the Monarchy, good or bad in the Monarchy's favour.

Unfortunately context gets thrown out the window because their ancestors over 200 years ago were colonialists.

I understand why you might want to give them whatever credit you want to give, but that Crown Jewels she wore on her forehead for the past however many years are still blood diamonds from India and Africa.

If they respected the wishes of other nations, they would likely facilitate conversations for reparations from the countless lives and riches lost and seek to make amends - instead, the so cold Monarchy continues to be exactly that, a Monarchy built off crimes and stealing from other nations.

They may not be white colonizers, however they still reap and gladly sow the rewards of crimes committed by their ancestors.

There is no true solution for this, but the monarchy deserves no credit for the so called "good" they do, when it's just a drop in the bucket to seeking amends.

 

[K1984]

I understand why you might want to give them whatever credit you want to give, but that Crown Jewels she wore on her forehead for the past however many years are still blood diamonds from India and Africa.

If they respected the wishes of other nations, they would likely facilitate conversations for reparations from the countless lives and riches lost and seek to make amends - instead, the so cold Monarchy continues to be exactly that, a Monarchy built off crimes and stealing from other nations.

They may not be white colonizers, however they still reap and gladly sow the rewards of crimes committed by their ancestors.

The Monarchy was built long before they colonized other nations (with essentially every other powerful nation in the world at the time along with them). Despite decades of perpetual unraveling of the empire they didn't do exactly what you want, so may as well unravel Canada to show them who's boss.

Got it.