GDT: Quarterfinal • May 11 • Czech Republic 4, United States 0

[doakacola*]

Honestly, I don't think this was a terrible group of players. Not enough offensive punch, and the d-play was erratic, but there was enough talent here to do better. Piss-poor coaching and execution did us in.

I agree with you, but in all honesty when 2 of your top 9 forwards include NCAA players, and you have maybe 3 of your top 13 playing, you can't expect much more than they did. I can honestly say they left it out on the ice tonight and Pavelec (sp)
made some huge stops, especially on Smith in P1.

 

[ponder]

 

[William H Bonney]

I wouldn't go that far. Komisarek & Johnson in the top 12 D in the US. JVR, Stepan & Wheeler are legit top 6 forwards on most any team. Kreider played well today against a very good team, Fowler & Smith played well. I'd say they were a USA
C team for sure in totality, with maybe 3-4 A Team players.

Komisarek is not a Top 12 American d-man.

None of JVR, Stepan, or Wheeler are legit top 6 forwards on most any team. JVR and Stepan in time, sure, but they're not there now. Wheeler probably never will be - All the tools, no toolbox.

"D" team was an accurate assessment. It doesn't matter in the end because you have the players you have on your team and it's up to them to get it done. This team didn't. But you're grossly overstating players to justify your position.

 

[William H Bonney]

Just caught the game....some thoughts on Team USA:

- Our passing sucks. Wheeler was consistently passing to no one.
- That first PP was the best our PP has looked by far all tournament.
- The first period was easily the best we've looked all tournament (face-offs aside to start). Pavelec made some big stops. Had we capitalized it would have set a great tone for the rest of the game but when we played that well and then gave up the 1st goal the rest seemed inevitable.
- Terrible pinch by Shattenkirk on the 1st goal by Jagr. That's a backbreaker. He did that a lot this tournament.
- Did I say that Blake Wheeler is the worst passer on the team? He's made Komisarek look good in that department.

Game was much, much closer than the score indicates. It was pretty much even but we knew it would be a chore to score consistently in this tournament so it's not surprising that's a big reason why we're now out.

Congrats to the Czech Republic on the win and run. Good luck the rest of the way!

 

[rushockey]

On the video it appears that Jagr has lost some weight, at least to me from what I have seen in the last 4-5 years. I think he is in a very good shape and that's the reason he plays well.

 

[AmericanDream]

Komisarek is not a Top 12 American d-man.

None of JVR, Stepan, or Wheeler are legit top 6 forwards on most any team. JVR and Stepan in time, sure, but they're not there now. Wheeler probably never will be - All the tools, no toolbox.

"D" team was an accurate assessment. It doesn't matter in the end because you have the players you have on your team and it's up to them to get it done. This team didn't. But you're grossly overstating players to justify your position.

here we go again.

can you just let people have their opinions without forcing yours on us? it is getting a bit old. we all dont need to hear your "expert" thoughts when it comes to posters and their opinions of players. if someone feels that Wheeler, Stepan, and JVR are top 6 on most teams (as they pretty much are at this point, especially JVR and Stepan), then who cares....that is their opinion, we dont need to be told otherwise because you dont see it that way.

 

[AmericanDream]

overall I feel bad for Jack Johnson, kid answers the call all the time, he deserves a better fate then this. I hope this doesnt leave a bad taste in the mouths of Fowler, Shatty, Stepan, and JVR....these kids are the future of USA Hockey, I pray they keep answering the call.

I cant complain with the results as this team performed better then I thought, and better then last year. it takes baby steps and this is going in the right direction. we all agree that Gordon needs to vanish, but again things will continue to improve with the more young talented players that are entering the game.

the boys played hard, and they gave us everything they had. I salute them and am proud of them because that is what I want to see, 100% effort, and thats what we got. now lets work on getting a bit more talent for next year, and lets move up to 4th-5th place......baby steps remember???

 

[William H Bonney]

here we go again.

can you just let people have their opinions without forcing yours on us? it is getting a bit old. we all dont need to hear your "expert" thoughts when it comes to posters and their opinions of players. if someone feels that Wheeler, Stepan, and JVR are top 6 on most teams (as they pretty much are at this point, especially JVR and Stepan), then who cares....that is their opinion, we dont need to be told otherwise because you dont see it that way.

That's the point of a message board. Debate and discussion. He's entitled to his point and I'm entitled to counter it with mine. If not, your post should have been aimed at Doakacola for thrusting his opinion on Panteras' post in the first place....oh wait.

 

[Odie]

I didn't expect much when they announced Al Montoya and Ty Conklin were our starting goalies :p

Pretty awesome to see the games on Versus, though. They didn't end up in relegation at least, but come on, they could still do better.

....and I feel I can say this from experience - Blake Wheeler is not a top 6 forward. I hated him in his last two years in Boston. Wasted potential.

Chris Kreider is gonna have one hell of an NHL career.

 

[Sean Garrity]

overall I feel bad for Jack Johnson, kid answers the call all the time, he deserves a better fate then this. I hope this doesnt leave a bad taste in the mouths of Fowler, Shatty, Stepan, and JVR....these kids are the future of USA Hockey, I pray they keep answering the call.

I cant complain with the results as this team performed better then I thought, and better then last year. it takes baby steps and this is going in the right direction. we all agree that Gordon needs to vanish, but again things will continue to improve with the more young talented players that are entering the game.

the boys played hard, and they gave us everything they had. I salute them and am proud of them because that is what I want to see, 100% effort, and thats what we got. now lets work on getting a bit more talent for next year, and lets move up to 4th-5th place......baby steps remember???

This is what I'm thinking. The future of USA hockey is quite bright, and the team they iced for this tournament is not representative of what USA can and will be in the future. Great game played by the Czech's and congratulations. Hope Elias can continue his solid play after the hit from Johnson.

 

[Coog]

After the last olympics, everybody knows what kind of a team the US is when they can put their best players on the ice. Thw WC is a fun distraction from the NHL (and in my case the SEL) but the winning team isn't "world champions" in any relevant meaning. World champs are the team that grabs the olympic gold, that's Canada and the US is the runner ups.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Well, I'm not going to sit here and slag on the players that answered the call. The fact is, the team as constructed did okay, but probably underachieved due to some very questionable coaching. No shame in playing it virtually even with probably the best team in this tourney. It's just a shame that after going toe to toe with teams like Canada and the Czech Republic Scott Gordon either was too stubborn to, or ignorant of, changes that could have improved the team's chances to turn close losses into victories.

 

[PapaQ]

I can imagine this was quite painful match to watch for US fans.

When i think about it, Slovakia didnt do that bad.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I can imagine this was quite painful match to watch for US fans.

When i think about it, Slovakia didnt do that bad.

How so? Slovakia, the host country flamed out and didn't even make the quarters. The U.S., while probably underachieving at least made the quarters and did a decent job against the Czechs.

 

[Ilyeu]

meh, congrats Czechs, this was like our D team

Congrats to the D-team Czech republic who beat the B+ Russian team last year.
Congrats to the Czech team and Czech federation who has problems with hockey development in their country do to outsourcing by the NHL and North America junior leagues of their players, by competing with some fine hard working NCAA players (the top developmental league in the country of the US).

It was a terrible group compared to Canada or teams we've sent in past years, but it was still a group mostly of NHL'ers so it wasn't like we were Latvia or France. This was a team that wasn't going to get relegated, but it wasn't going to win a medal either. An 8th place finish is about right.

Is it about right? Or maybe not enough preparation, not enough belief, not enough chemistry, poor coaching foresight? Where's the belief of the college players like they had in 1980... like you said 8th is just about right. I guess.

I've been watching the US compete in this tournament since the mid 90's and I can tell you the Roster's in the recent past and in the far past are pretty much on par to what hte US has been sending to this tournament.

Canada had a "D-team" last year, but really it was a lot of young talent so did the US. You go into this tournament with what you got, and you go expecting to win.
I knew our team, Team Canada, wasn't to it's full potential, and I still expected us to win, I still wanted us to win and when we lost 5-2 to Russia, I was annoyed and didn't blame the youth, I blamed the coaching because the coaching did a piss poor job and the goaltending sucked hard. If it was the players I would have came down on them, but they were actually performing well. We just met Russia in the QF, so that's a final right there.

Well, I'm not going to sit here and slag on the players that answered the call. The fact is, the team as constructed did okay, but probably underachieved due to some very questionable coaching. No shame in playing it virtually even with probably the best team in this tourney. It's just a shame that after going toe to toe with teams like Canada and the Czech Republic Scott Gordon either was too stubborn to, or ignorant of, changes that could have improved the team's chances to turn close losses into victories.

This was a perfect thread statement or even your congrats Czech statement. You really don't make any excuses or share any illusions of denial.
Excellent thought process and you're a true USA fan.

 

[PapaQ]

How so? Slovakia, the host country flamed out and didn't even make the quarters. The U.S., while probably underachieving at least made the quarters and did a decent job against the Czechs.

I am reffering to match vs. Czech Republic. Slovakia lost "only" 2-3 and kept up with the opponent for 2 periods.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I am reffering to match vs. Czech Republic. Slovakia lost "only" 2-3 and kept up with the opponent for 2 periods.

Ah. My fault.

 

[doakacola*]

Komisarek is not a Top 12 American d-man.

None of JVR, Stepan, or Wheeler are legit top 6 forwards on most any team. JVR and Stepan in time, sure, but they're not there now. Wheeler probably never will be - All the tools, no toolbox.

"D" team was an accurate assessment. It doesn't matter in the end because you have the players you have on your team and it's up to them to get it done. This team didn't. But you're grossly overstating players to justify your position.

You're grossly understating players to justify your position. So what exactly does this statement prove? The same as yours, nothing.

The facts are Komisarek was named to the 2010 US Olympic Team. So Burke judged him in the top 7 as of Jan 1, 2010. I'm not saying the guy is top 7 or even top 10, but he is certainly in the mix for top 12.

D - Johnson, Johnson, Suter, Buf, Yandle, Rafalski, Orpik, Gleason, Carlson,
Martin, Komisarek, Goligoski


Stepan certainly would be a top 6 forward on most of the teams in the NHL. Most means more than half, in other words there are 16 teams he would be top 6. I'm from Boston and for his time here Wheeler was in fact considered a top 6 forward for Boston. You really think JVR wouldn't be a top 6 forward on 16 of the 30 teams in the NHL? Come on you know better than that.

 

[William H Bonney]

The facts are Komisarek was named to the 2010 US Olympic Team. So Burke judged him in the top 7 as of Jan 1, 2010. I'm not saying the guy is top 7 or even top 10, but he is certainly in the mix for top 12.

D - Johnson, Johnson, Suter, Buf, Yandle, Rafalski, Orpik, Gleason, Carlson,
Martin, Komisarek, Goligoski

Ryan Suter, Brian Rafalski, Jack Johnson, Erik Johnson, Tim Gleason, Ryan Whitney, Brooks Orpik, Keith Yandle, Dustin Byfuglien, John Carlson, Paul Martin, and Alex Goligoski. That's the 11 you named that are all better than Komisarek. That leaves Komisarek in a group with another group of 14 (off the top of my head) : James Wisniewski, J.M. Liles, Rob Scuderi, Kevin Shattenkirk, Cam Fowler, Ryan McDonagh, Matt Carle, Joe Corvo, Jordan Leopold, Tom Gilbert, Jamie McBain, Ron Hainsey, Paul Mara, Tom Poti, etc. The majority, if not all, of those 14 either had better seasons this year than Komi (that's pretty much all of them) or they've been better in the last couple of years. You concede that you're arguing for Komi in the #11/12 spots but it would be a tough argument to make that Komi is better than everyone in that second group (+ Goligoski) to put him in the Top 12.

Yes, Komisarek was originally named to the Olympic Team. Go read back through that thread. It was expected (because most knew how much Burke likes Komi) but universally bemoaned and that's for a reason. That's why everyone was so excited when he had to be replaced and it's not because they felt we were replacing one bottom Top 12 guy with another bottom Top 12 guy.

Chris Drury and Jamie Langenbrunner were both on that Team as well. Would you agree if I argued they were both Top 13 American forwards? I hope not.

Stepan certainly would be a top 6 forward on most of the teams in the NHL. Most means more than half, in other words there are 16 teams he would be top 6. I'm from Boston and for his time here Wheeler was in fact considered a top 6 forward for Boston. You really think JVR wouldn't be a top 6 forward on 16 of the 30 teams in the NHL? Come on you know better than that.

If we're just saying it's based on being in the Top 6 I'd say it's close. JVR would be a given the way he played in the 2nd half and the playoffs. Stepan and Wheeler would be borderline and dependent upon multiple factors like if Stepan would play out of position or not. I wouldn't say they're currently "legit" Top 6 guys though just because they can play in the Top 6 for some awful teams. But based just on the 16/30 criteria, I'd say it's close for them.

They're good enough players though for us to have more success in this tournament than we're seeing.

 

[doakacola*]

Ryan Suter, Brian Rafalski, Jack Johnson, Erik Johnson, Tim Gleason, Ryan Whitney, Brooks Orpik, Keith Yandle, Dustin Byfuglien, John Carlson, Paul Martin, and Alex Goligoski. That's the 11 you named that are all better than Komisarek. That leaves Komisarek in a group with another group of 14 (off the top of my head) : James Wisniewski, J.M. Liles, Rob Scuderi, Kevin Shattenkirk, Cam Fowler, Ryan McDonagh, Matt Carle, Joe Corvo, Jordan Leopold, Tom Gilbert, Jamie McBain, Ron Hainsey, Paul Mara, Tom Poti, etc. The majority, if not all, of those 14 either had better seasons this year than Komi (that's pretty much all of them) or they've been better in the last couple of years. You concede that you're arguing for Komi in the #11/12 spots but it would be a tough argument to make that Komi is better than everyone in that second group (+ Goligoski) to put him in the Top 12.

Stepan was a top 6 forward on the NY Rangers, a PO team. Wheeler has been a top 6 forward on Boston, another perennial PO team. You admitted JVR is a top 6 guy.

Langenbrunner was still a very effective player when they named they team. I had no issue with him there. In 2008-09 he had a 69 point season and a 62 point season in 2009-10, no issues with Langenbrunner on that team, Drury I believed never belonged there over Buff.

 

[doakacola*]

Here are roughly my A - B - C USA teams:

A Team

G - Miller - Thomas

D - Johnson-Johnson-Suter-Orpik-Yandle-Carlson

F - Kesler-Pavelski-Stastny-Backes-Parise-Booth-Brown-Ryan-Kessel-Kane-
JVR-Buff(I'd use him upfront, spot him on D)


B Team

G - Quick - Howard

D - Rafalski - Goligoski - Gleason -Komisarek - Wisniewski - Martin (was awful this year)

F - Umberger - Dubinsky - Oshie - Stepan- Gionta - Cole - Wheeler - Stafford - Malone - Gomez - Legwand - Callahan


C Team

G - Anderson - Schneider

D - Leopold - Carle - Fowler - Liles - Gill - Corvo

F - Cullen - Connolly - Okposo - Boyle - Knuble - Stempniak - Pacioretty - Gerbe - Blake - Larose - Moss - Langenbrunner

 

[William H Bonney]

Stepan was a top 6 forward on the NY Rangers, a PO team. Wheeler has been a top 6 forward on Boston, another perennial PO team. You admitted JVR is a top 6 guy.

Joel Ward was a Top 6 forward on Nashville and Eric Belanger was a Top 6 forward on Phoenix. That doesn't necessarily mean they're Top 6 forwards either. They may be in those roles but they wouldn't be "legit" (your word) Top 6 guys. JVR, if he plays like he did down the stretch, is definitely a legit Top 6 guy. Stepan will be in time but it would be borderline at best to call him a legit Top 6 guy right now. Wheeler may play a Top 6 role sometimes but I wouldn't call him a legit Top 6 guy on most NHL teams either. The difference being Stepan is just young and in time he'll cement that status. Wheeler probably never will put it all together but I hope he does.

Another example, Andy Greene was New Jersey's #1 d-man last season and a Top 2 guy this year. He may be in that role but that doesn't make him a legit Top Pairing d-man. Same principle above. If you don't agree, I'd be curious to know why he's not on your Top 3 USA teams.

Langenbrunner was still a very effective player when they named they team. I had no issue with him there. In 2008-09 he had a 69 point season and a 62 point season in 2009-10, no issues with Langenbrunner on that team, Drury I believed never belonged there over Buff.

That's not my point. I didn't have an issue with either of them being there. But just as them being on that team does not make them Top USA forwards, Komisarek being originally chosen does not mean he's necessarily a Top USA d-man.

....As for your teams, not getting too in depth, Komisarek doesn't belong on that 2nd team. For example, even if you want to pencil another defensive d-man in his spot, a guy like Rob Scuderi is superior in every aspect but physical play. He's a much better player than Komi.

 

[doakacola*]

Joel Ward was a Top 6 forward on Nashville and Eric Belanger was a Top 6 forward on Phoenix. That doesn't necessarily mean they're Top 6 forwards either. They may be in those roles but they wouldn't be "legit" (your word) Top 6 guys. JVR, if he plays like he did down the stretch, is definitely a legit Top 6 guy. Stepan will be in time but it would be borderline at best to call him a legit Top 6 guy right now. Wheeler may play a Top 6 role sometimes but I wouldn't call him a legit Top 6 guy on most NHL teams either. The difference being Stepan is just young and in time he'll cement that status. Wheeler probably never will put it all together but I hope he does.

Another example, Andy Greene was New Jersey's #1 d-man last season and a Top 2 guy this year. He may be in that role but that doesn't make him a legit Top Pairing d-man. Same principle above. If you don't agree, I'd be curious to know why he's not on your Top 3 USA teams.



That's not my point. I didn't have an issue with either of them being there. But just as them being on that team does not make them Top USA forwards, Komisarek being originally chosen does not mean he's necessarily a Top USA d-man.

....As for your teams, not getting too in depth, Komisarek doesn't belong on that 2nd team. For example, even if you want to pencil another defensive d-man in his spot, a guy like Rob Scuderi is superior in every aspect but physical play. He's a much better player than Komi.

Andy Greene just isn't very good. Scuderi is at least one year past his prime, but you could maybe swap out Paul Martin and insert Scuderi. Martin was awful this year
and I probably shouldn't have included him, but he's still better than Andy Greene.
Greene in my book isn't the #1 or #2 dman on NJ either, I still take Colin White and Tallinder over Greene, no questions asked. You are clearly mistaking points for what makes a decent NHL dman.

 

[William H Bonney]

Andy Greene just isn't very good. Scuderi is at least one year past his prime, but you could maybe swap out Paul Martin and insert Scuderi. Martin was awful this year
and I probably shouldn't have included him, but he's still better than Andy Greene.
Greene in my book isn't the #1 or #2 dman on NJ either, I still take Colin White and Tallinder over Greene, no questions asked. You are clearly mistaking points for what makes a decent NHL dman.

I didn't say Andy Greene is very good. I was making the point that you can't just look at a players role (i.e. Stepan or Wheeler) and say that makes them a Top 6 forward. Other factors apply. So just because Stepan played a Top 6 role doesn't necessarily mean he's a legit Top 6 guy just as Andy Greene leading the Devils d-men in ice time or Joel Ward and Eric Belanger playing Top 6 minutes does not mean they're a #1 d-man or Top 6 forwards respectively. Much more perspective must be considered. I wasn't arguing for Greene to be on those teams. That was pretty clear.

I've watched every game Scuderi has played the last two years. He's not past his prime at all. He's still right in the thick of it. He's been a better d-man than Komisarek for awhile now and it's not really all that close. And what does it matter if Paul Martin had a down year? He's only less than a year older than Komisarek and has always been the better defenseman as well. If Paul Martin gets booted from your Top 2 teams based on what you consider a down year then how is Komisarek still there? He just finished his third putrid season in a row and Martin's "awful" year was still much better than what Komi put forth this season....