Euro: QF: Belgium v Italy, 7/2/2021

[Theokritos]

Holland has been at a higher level than Belgium as in like pretty much all of living memory. When I think of Belgium I think of a footballing nation similar to Denmark, Czechia, Croatia. Not a big boy but occasionally blessed with some outstanding talent, but never the depth to really run with the big boys over a longer time frame.

Prior to their 1970s generation the Dutch weren't better either. In fact, they were below that level. As for Belgium, I think the players they have had for the last three major tournaments put them (and the reasonable expectations) well above Denmark, Czechia and Croatia during that time frame.

This year Hazard wasn't his former self and De Bruyne was injured. It's one thing if you have these guys healthy and at their best, laying an egg. But that wasn't the case here.

I guess that's fair. The QF exit this year might be more easy to justify than earlier exits, but in my mind it just drives home that the Belgian golden generation has now missed its chance.

Thing is, we never had elite coaching. That could have made all the difference in the world. Both Argentina '14 and France '18 were able to shut us down with relative ease - both times our manager didn't find any solutions to a defensive front.

No contest from me. I would say you had elite squads that were kept from achieving what they could have (and we might disagree here, but in my opinion: should have) achieved by coaching that wasn't close to the same level.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Well the 70s are now 50 years ago, so within 'living memory' is about that time frame for just about everyone on this forum I imagine.

 

[Theokritos]

Well the 70s are now 50 years ago, so within 'living memory' is about that time frame for just about everyone on this forum I imagine.

Okay, but you were replying to an ongoing discussion about 1970s Holland as a comparable to the recent Belgian generation when you said "Holland has been at a higher level than Belgium as in like pretty much all of living memory".

 

[Suiteness]

Belgium was a legit powerhouse in the 80's as well (the Ceulemans, Scifo, Pfaff era). They were good but not great in the 90's (Nilis, Preud'homme and Wilmots era) and fell off a cliff in the noughties.

I don't think this "Golden Generation" was as good as the team from the 80's.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Okay, but you were replying to an ongoing discussion about 1970s Holland as a comparable to the recent Belgian generation when you said "Holland has been at a higher level than Belgium as in like pretty much all of living memory".

Well the distinction is quite clear in my mind. Holland in the 70s wasn't 'the golden generation' of Holland, it was one of a number of generations that could challenge for titles..probably their best one but the late 80s Gullit/Rijkaard edition, the mid to late 90s Bergkamp/Overmars edition, the mid/late 00s Robben/Van Persie generation all made serious plays for tournament glory and were considered contenders. In fact, even in this tournament some people thought Holland could do damage.

Belgium has had good players before, but this is the first generation of theirs that goes into tournaments with the expectation of challenging for the trophy and I suspect it will remain that way as in I don't think this is the start of Belgium's permanent ascent to European elite status. I think it's an exception.

 

[Theokritos]

Well the distinction is quite clear in my mind. Holland in the 70s wasn't 'the golden generation' of Holland, it was one of a number of generations that could challenge for titles..probably their best one but the late 80s Gullit/Rijkaard edition, the mid to late 90s Bergkamp/Overmars edition, the mid/late 00s Robben/Van Persie generation all made serious plays for tournament glory and were considered contenders. In fact, even in this tournament some people thought Holland could do damage.

Belgium has had good players before, but this is the first generation of theirs that goes into tournaments with the expectation of challenging for the trophy and I suspect it will remain that way as in I don't think this is the start of Belgium's permanent ascent to European elite status. I think it's an exception.

That's all fine. All I was saying is that I don't think the Belgian "golden generation" can be excused with the argument that the 1970s Dutch generation never won a WC either. The Belgians did a lot less in 2014-2016-2018 than the Dutch did in 1974-1976-1978.

 

[Evilo]

Enzo Scifo...

 

[Savi]

Belgium was a legit powerhouse in the 80's as well (the Ceulemans, Scifo, Pfaff era). They were good but not great in the 90's (Nilis, Preud'homme and Wilmots era) and fell off a cliff in the noughties.

I don't think this "Golden Generation" was as good as the team from the 80's.

Those teams were way tougher, too

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

That's all fine. All I was saying is that I don't think the Belgian "golden generation" can be excused with the argument that the 1970s Dutch generation never won a WC either. The Belgians did a lot less in 2014-2016-2018 than the Dutch did in 1974-1976-1978.

I just think it's an odd comparison given Holland's big boy status. I think it's fairer to say - well if Denmark, Greece or Czechoslovakia can win European Championships then so can Belgium. You don't traditionally have to be a powerhouse to make it far in the Euro.

 

[Theokritos]

I just think it's an odd comparison given Holland's big boy status. I think it's fairer to say - well if Denmark, Greece or Czechoslovakia can win European Championships then so can Belgium. You don't traditionally have to be a powerhouse to make it far in the Euro.

Again: Holland didn't have a big boy status prior to the appearance of their 1970s generation. Just like Belgium didn't have one prior to this generation.

Yes, Denmark and Greece can win European Championships, but no-one would expect it of them or even expect them to be contenders. That's the difference: Belgium with their rosters were expected to be contenders and for them to not even have reached a single final over the 14-16-18 stretch is a failure / underperformance relative to their roster quality (as opposed to Denmark, Greece etc not reaching a final over the same stretch or in fact any given stretch in football history).

 

[Bakayoko Ono]

Spinazzola on his way to get operated in Finland by Sakari Orava, much like Dembele.

Orava is pushing 80 and retired a few years back, they are just using his name and the operations are done by other surgeons.

 

[Jussi]

Orava is pushing 80 and retired a few years back, they are just using his name and the operations are done by other surgeons.

Yeah, meant to say it's the same clinic in Turku: Ousmane Dembele leikattiin maanantaina Turussa – ranskalaishyökkääjällä edessään neljän kuukauden kuntoutuminen

 

[luiginb]

Well, Italy aren’t exactly overflowing with great strikers

At this point they should try and stick with Kean there, at least he can finish and he's young. I'd play Belotti ahead of Immobile too, and I love him at Lazio, but something's wrong with his head when he gets the national team jersey on.

 

[cgf]

I just think it's an odd comparison given Holland's big boy status. I think it's fairer to say - well if Denmark, Greece or Czechoslovakia can win European Championships then so can Belgium. You don't traditionally have to be a powerhouse to make it far in the Euro.

A reunited czechoslovak team could've contended for these euros

 

[Incubajerks]

At this point they should try and stick with Kean there, at least he can finish and he's young. I'd play Belotti ahead of Immobile too, and I love him at Lazio, but something's wrong with his head when he gets the national team jersey on.

Nothing is wrong with Ciro, Mancini is not gonna play Kean or Belotti over him, the only thing wrong is in the heads of the people who, with the team in the semifinals, create controversies that do not exist.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

A reunited czechoslovak team could've contended for these euros

I don't think so. They'd have more depth but would still be highly devoid of star power. The career twilight version of Hamsik doesn't really count.

 

[cgf]

I don't think so. They'd have more depth but would still be highly devoid of star power. The career twilight version of Hamsik doesn't really count.

Ultimately we can't know for sure. But the Czechs made it to the quarterfinals with their defenders. You put Skriniar & some more of those Slovak defenders behind Schick & those Czech attackers, and I think a couple more wins would've been highly possible IMO.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Ultimately we can't know for sure. But the Czechs made it to the quarterfinals with their defenders. You put Skriniar & some more of those Slovak defenders behind Schick & those Czech attackers, and I think a couple more wins would've been highly possible IMO.

Well anything is possible of course. With a few bounces going another way they may have beaten Denmark and made the SF anyway, but what I'm saying is I don't think even with those Slovak players added we'd have sat here in May going "oh yeah the Czechoslovaks are going to contend for the title at the Euro".

 

[cgf]

Well anything is possible of course. With a few bounces going another way they may have beaten Denmark and made the SF anyway, but what I'm saying is I don't think even with those Slovak players added we'd have sat here in May going "oh yeah the Czechoslovaks are going to contend for the title at the Euro".

Agree to disagree then, cause I made a comment along those lines during the Czechs' first match of the group stages...as their talent pools would complement one another really well & I was high on the czechs' play with the ball.

 

[cgf]

wrong thread lol