Prime Jonathan Toews or Current Auston Matthews

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't believe the point of statistical peak means highest totals. I think it clearly means best production in relation to the league (regardless of the rest of their games). Otherwise it's pretty meaningless. What does Malkin hitting his highest totals at 22 tell us about when a player hits his scoring peak if he was clearly better offensively at 25? For once scoring isn't going down either so what happened to others likely won't happen to him if things hold. I do think most players hit it before 25 than after, especially those who enter the league and are top players from an early age, but I think it's usually closer to 25 than 22 like Matthews was this year. Matthews is in his prime and probably unlikely to hit a hugely different level at this point, but I think peak has as much to do with variance, opportunity and circumstance as anything so it wouldn't be surprising to see him have his best statistical season any time in the next 5 years.

Then I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with me, but agreeing with the guy I quoted (or at least not openly disagreeing with his premise). The bolded is exactly my point I was making against his point.

 

[cesareborgia]

And yet I'm sure you voted Toews here, and voted Laine over Matthews in the countless "who is better" posts over the years.

 

[ClydeLee]

And yet I'm sure you voted Toews here, and voted Laine over Matthews in the countless "who is better" posts over the years.

Why? What a bizarre self deluded view of people out to get your Leafs you have.

I know I never voted for Laine because he is even less of a complete player. Again, its not hard to view complete ice play as a total top requirement over just goals.

 

[JaegerDice]

And yet I'm sure you voted Toews here, and voted Laine over Matthews in the countless "who is better" posts over the years.

I voted Toews here because prime Toews is better than current Auston Matthews.

I voted for Matthews over Laine, cause Matthews is better than Laine.

 

[Regal]

Then I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with me, but agreeing with the guy I quoted (or at least not openly disagreeing with his premise). The bolded is exactly my point I was making against his point.

I'm disagreeing on the specific point about over or under 25, but more on the relevance of that point. I think trends point to under 25 as being more likely, but I think it tends to skew in the latter part of that that Matthews hasn't hit yet (23-24), and there's so many examples of players hitting it in the 25-27 range that I don't think we can really make an educated guesses on Matthews peak, other than he probably hasn't hit it yet and it'll likely happen sometime in the next 4-5 years

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm disagreeing on the specific point about over or under 25, but more on the relevance of that point. I think trends point to under 25 as being more likely, but I think it tends to skew in the latter part of that that Matthews hasn't hit yet (23-24), and there's so many examples of players hitting it in the 25-27 range that I don't think we can really make an educated guesses on Matthews peak, other than he probably hasn't hit it yet and it'll likely happen sometime in the next 4-5 years

I was talking about in general, not about Matthews, since that poster was saying that more players (ie. the majority) had their peak statistical seasons after age 25 than they did prior to that.

Again, you essentially agreed with me with that bolded part of your post above. Even in the post above, the part I bolded once again agrees with my original point in response to the person I quoted. So it just seems weird to me that you're focusing exclusively on the low end of my age range (22-25, you're stuck on the 22 part) rather than the person I originally quoted who suggested more players have peak statistical seasons AFTER age 25 than they do in that 22-25 range.

 

[Muikea Bulju]

Overall, Toews is better

And as a leader / playoff performer, he is on another level

Plus I think at his best he made his teammates a lot better than that leaf dude

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Overall, Toews is better

And as a leader / playoff performer, he is on another level

Plus I think at his best he made his teammates a lot better than that leaf dude

Absolutely, he also never truly had a Center to take the load off of him. He did a lot in his younger years, was a great leader, 2 way player, but you nailed one part that is often overlooked, he was able to mentor by example Kane into a serious player. Toews was mature beyond his years. Those early years he was as a complete hockey player, he was elite on the Hawks or Team Canada.I still recall the Olympics I believe was the first gold, he centered Canada's best line with Mike Richards and Rick Nash on the wings. Marvelous hockey player in his prime.

 

[Syckle78]

I expect Matthews to be a Hart finalist at least once over the next 3 years, looks like the highest Toews finished was 4th. I'll go with Matthews.

So you made up your own version of the poll lol Do you you not know what the word 'current' means?

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

So you made up your own version of the poll lol Do you you not know what the word 'current' means?

My point is Matthews currently is entering his prime. His best season could be any of the next three years and I expect it to be higher than Toews's prime, so current (prime) Matthews is better than prime Toews.

 

[Treb]

My point is Matthews currently is entering his prime. His best season could be any of the next three years and I expect it to be higher than Toews's prime, so current (prime) Matthews is better than prime Toews.

Current Matthews is not prime Matthews, unless you think last season was his prime.

You are moving the goalposts to future Matthews which is not what the poll ask.

Until the season is under way, you cannot count it as current.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Maybe because your reading comprehension is questionable that's what you see as a "new narrative". Because that's not even remotely what I said in the post you quoted.

Actually, despite the quote, I wasn't actually referring to you.

 

[x Tame Impala]

unpopular opinion, i take Matthews with the Hawks stanley cup core.

There wouldn’t be a “Stanley Cup core” if Matthews was our 1C from 2010 to 2015. It’s simply because of that that Toews is winning the poll, and rightfully so.

 

[Dekes For Days]

There wouldn’t be a “Stanley Cup core” if Matthews was our 1C from 2010 to 2015.

It's likely that Chicago would win the exact same cups if they were switched.

 

[x Tame Impala]

It's likely that Chicago would win the exact same cups if they were switched.

Matthews legendary ESG/60 wouldn’t be enough to make up for his objectively inferior ability to shutdown other team’s top lines.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Matthews legendary ESG/60 wouldn’t be enough to make up for his objectively inferior ability to shutdown other team’s top lines.

Matthews is a lot more than just ES G/60, and while Toews was good defensively, his individual defensive impact is greatly exaggerated. He was perfectly insulted with great defensive players during those years as well, and the difference between Toews and Matthews would likely not alter things significantly enough to prevent Chicago winning in the years they did.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Matthews is a lot more than just ES G/60, and while Toews was good defensively, his individual defensive impact is greatly exaggerated. He was perfectly insulted with great defensive players during those years as well, and the difference between Toews and Matthews would likely not alter things significantly enough to prevent Chicago winning in the years they did.

I don’t think that’s a very accurate statement.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Matthews is a lot more than just ES G/60, and while Toews was good defensively, his individual defensive impact is greatly exaggerated. He was perfectly insulted with great defensive players during those years as well, and the difference between Toews and Matthews would likely not alter things significantly enough to prevent Chicago winning in the years they did.

Well no. The only better defensive forward at the time was Bergeron and Toews was superior offensive at that point. While Toews at the time was a little overrated, he’s become quite underrated.

 

[JaegerDice]

Matthews is a lot more than just ES G/60, and while Toews was good defensively, his individual defensive impact is greatly exaggerated. He was perfectly insulted with great defensive players during those years as well, and the difference between Toews and Matthews would likely not alter things significantly enough to prevent Chicago winning in the years they did.

The only cup the Blackhawks may have won with a current Matthews in place of Toews at the time was the 2010 cup, as that was the only cup that Toews was used in a purely offensive role. He absolutely went off in that role, dominating and dictating play through the first 3 rounds to a degree that we've certainly never seen Auston Matthews assert himself, particularly in the playoffs.

The following two cups were a completely different deployment strategy. The Toews matchup line was basically tasked with taking on the toughest competition, keeping them from scoring, AND producing at a top 6 rate, so that Kane's line could take on baby soft competition in overwhelming ozone starts and the bum-slayers on the 3rd line could take everything left over. Kruger on the 4th line managed the bulk of the dzone starts. The ONLY reason this worked is because Toews was such a two-way possession MONSTER that could turn the best-of-the-best in the NHL to mulch in terms of possession, scoring chance share, and goal differential.

Auston Matthews has simply not demonstrated the ability to do so. His coaches have barely attempted to even use him in such a role. Which is fine, he's an offensive weapon, it's not wrong to use your best offensive weapon in the most opportunistic scenarios (that's what the Blackhawks do with Kane). But he has not demonstrated he can play the Toews or Kopitar role (Kopitar did the same thing for the Kings, and Carter basically reaped the rewards behind him as far as deployment in the same way Kane did behind Toews). That doesn't mean Matthews sucks, it simply means he can't do THAT job, and on a team where THAT job is a key pillar of the entire gameplan, he would NOT have been able to replace Toews and still win a cup.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The only better defensive forward at the time was Bergeron

Highly debatable, and individual defensive impact from forwards in general is often overstated. Toews was good defensively, but he tends to get more credit for the end results than he deserves.

 

[JaegerDice]

Highly debatable, and individual defensive impact from forwards in general is often overstated. Toews was good defensively, but he tends to get more credit for the end results than he deserves.

If anything defensive impact is underrated, as its far more difficult to measure.

 

[Hockey Know it all]

No offense but I never understood the love for Toews? I really have never thought he was that good of a player. He might be a good leader and have good intangibles but other than that, is he really a top 100 player of all time?

 

[Hockey Know it all]

Prime Toews without blinking and I say that with all respect to Matthews who I think will be the better player when all is said and done.

One of the most underrated things on these boards over the last decade was the Bergeron-Toews-Kopitar trifecta simply blackholing the opposing top scorers while chugging along at 60-70 points themselves.

You’d have to add datsyuk with those three

 

[JaegerDice]

You’d have to add datsyuk with those three

Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

There was a period in the early-to-mid 2010s where they were the only forwards with a higher QoC than Toews.

As the Red Wings depth thinned out after the 2008 and 2009 peak, Babcock just asked more and more of them, and they kept delivering.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Highly debatable, and individual defensive impact from forwards in general is often overstated. Toews was good defensively, but he tends to get more credit for the end results than he deserves.

It’s really not though? The best two way forwards of Toews generation were him, Kopitar, Bergeron, and I guess Datsyuk & Zetterberg(but that was the end of their primes really). Bergeron is clearly better than Toews defensively while Kopitar is better offensively. I just don’t see how it’s debatable that Toews was at worst the 3rd best two way forward of his era.