Potential Atlanta NHL Expansion Team Thread

[GKJ]

So where exactly are we at here? We had someone say that it was Gary’s turn next, but Krause has gone sour on the arena.

 

[nhlfan79]

So where exactly are we at here? We had someone say that it was Gary’s turn next, but Krause has gone sour on the arena.

Well, that was the perception a couple of days ago immediately after the Forsyth County greenlight vote, but now Krause has balked at some last-minute changes to some of the details that the commission unilaterally added just before it voted. His strong reaction to the changes has gotten people wondering if he and his development team are truly as well-funded as he portrays.

The question is, by the commission altering the deal to require that the arena be built up front during Phase One (instead of possibly during Phase Two, which had been permitted under the negotiated terms), was Krause relying on raising capital funds from the sales of homes also being built during Phase One to be able to afford funding the arena construction during Phase Two? In fairness, to hear him tell it, the flexibility of allowing the arena construction to slide into Phase Two was to accommodate uncertainties in the NHL's expansion timeline, should the resolution of the separate Arizona situation take longer than hoped.

What's the actual reality? Who knows?

 

[GKJ]

Well, that was the perception a couple of days ago immediately after the Forsyth County greenlight vote, but now Krause has balked at some last-minute changes to some of the details that the commission unilaterally added just before it voted. His strong reaction to the changes has gotten people wondering if he and his development team are truly as well-funded as he portrays.

The question is, by the commission altering the deal to require that the arena be built up front during Phase One (instead of possibly during Phase Two, which had been permitted under the negotiated terms), was Krause relying on raising capital funds from the sales of homes also to be built during Phase One to be able to afford funding the arena construction during Phase Two? In fairness, to hear him tell it, the flexibility of allowing the arena construction to slide into Phase Two was to accommodate uncertainties in the NHL's expansion timeline, should the resolution of the separate Arizona situation take longer than hoped.

What's the actual reality? Who knows?

Sounds like they just wanted to smoke him out

 

[sneakytitz]

Sounds like they just wanted to smoke him out

No clue but none of the 4 opposition speakers broached the ideas that spurned their changes. Odd situation all around.

 

[sneakytitz]

So where exactly are we at here? We had someone say that it was Gary’s turn next, but Krause has gone sour on the arena.

Many are speculating that the dwelling units sold would finance the arena and perhaps part of the expansion fee. They told him he can't build the remaining 600 units of his 1800 proposed until the arena is halfway built with these changes, which represents $300-420 million of his revenue being tied up. The county is worried that if he walks away from the project prior to building the arena, they'll be left with some Class A real estate and 1800 dwelling units on the land and that's it.

I don't think that is indicative of him being "cash poor", as Ben Wright insinuated, but that is a substantial shift in his plan without his say/control/negotiations (the entire thing is $2 billion and that's 1/6-1/5 of it shifted without his consent right there).

The compromise is going to be the next chapter in this story. Neither side is going to stick to their guns and sully the deal.

 

[rojac]

Well, that was the perception a couple of days ago immediately after the Forsyth County greenlight vote, but now Krause has balked at some last-minute changes to some of the details that the commission unilaterally added just before it voted. His strong reaction to the changes has gotten people wondering if he and his development team are truly as well-funded as he portrays.

The question is, by the commission altering the deal to require that the arena be built up front during Phase One (instead of possibly during Phase Two, which had been permitted under the negotiated terms), was Krause relying on raising capital funds from the sales of homes also being built during Phase One to be able to afford funding the arena construction during Phase Two? In fairness, to hear him tell it, the flexibility of allowing the arena construction to slide into Phase Two was to accommodate uncertainties in the NHL's expansion timeline, should the resolution of the separate Arizona situation take longer than hoped.

What's the actual reality? Who knows?

Huh?

The changes did not require the arena to be built in phase 1. The arena is in phase 2 unless the NHL grants a franchise during phase 1, in which case, the arena can be moved up. The biggest changes involved when certificates of occupancy (COs) will be granted for the new residential units. In Phase 1, I believe the commissioners added a condition of a certain percentage of the commercial/office space must be built before COs will be granted. And in Phase 2, they wanted 50% of the arena completed before granting COs. Their main concern appeared to be making sure there would be enough revenue generated to cover the cost of the new residents in terms of public services.

There was also a point made that there was still room for fine tuning before the MOU was finalized, so some of Krause's stance might be posturing. The only pushback from Krause's people at the meeting seemed to come on the idea of increasing the per-ticket surcharge from $1.50 to $2.50.

 

[rojac]

Many are speculating that the dwelling units sold would finance the arena and perhaps part of the expansion fee. They told him he can't build the remaining 600 units of his 1800 proposed until the arena is halfway built with these changes, which represents $300-420 million of his revenue being tied up. The county is worried that if he walks away from the project prior to building the arena, they'll be left with some Class A real estate and 1800 dwelling units on the land and that's it.

I don't think that is indicative of him being "cash poor", as Ben Wright insinuated, but that is a substantial shift in his plan without his say/control/negotiations (the entire thing is $2 billion and that's 1/6-1/5 of it shifted without his consent right there).

The compromise is going to be the next chapter in this story. Neither side is going to stick to their guns and sully the deal.

Just a minor correction. I think it's 600 apartments in each phase. So, it's the second 600 units that are dependent on 50% of the arena. I am pretty sure that the final 600 units in phase 3 were always dependent on the first two phases (including the arena) being completed.

 

[sneakytitz]

Just a minor correction. I think it's 600 apartments in each phase. So, it's the second 600 units that are dependent on 50% of the arena. I am pretty sure that the final 600 units in phase 3 were always dependent on the first two phases (including the arena) being completed.

Correct, but the issue is that they've moved arena to 50% complete before phase 2 can start, thereby removing 600 additional units from the original plan. Krause could have shifted the start of arena construction from phase 1 to phase 2 at his discretion.

 

[rojac]

Correct, but the issue is that they've moved arena to 50% complete before phase 2 can start, thereby removing 600 additional units from the original plan. Krause could have shifted the start of arena construction from phase 1 to phase 2 at his discretion.

It's 50% completion before COs can be issued not before they can be built. The units can be built before, during, or after arena construction, they just can't be occupied until 50% of the arena construction is done.

 

[sneakytitz]

It's 50% completion before COs can be issued not before they can be built. The units can be built before, during, or after arena construction, they just can't be occupied until 50% of the arena construction is done.

Yes, that is correct.

 

[tucker3434]

Huh?

The changes did not require the arena to be built in phase 1. The arena is in phase 2 unless the NHL grants a franchise during phase 1, in which case, the arena can be moved up. The biggest changes involved when certificates of occupancy (COs) will be granted for the new residential units. In Phase 1, I believe the commissioners added a condition of a certain percentage of the commercial/office space must be built before COs will be granted. And in Phase 2, they wanted 50% of the arena completed before granting COs. Their main concern appeared to be making sure there would be enough revenue generated to cover the cost of the new residents in terms of public services.

There was also a point made that there was still room for fine tuning before the MOU was finalized, so some of Krause's stance might be posturing. The only pushback from Krause's people at the meeting seemed to come on the idea of increasing the per-ticket surcharge from $1.50 to $2.50.

They definitely don't want to get stuck with a bunch of apartments and that's it. Understandable. They should have ironed that out beforehand. They likely could have reached terms that offered a bit more protection that everybody could live with. The way they did it seemed a bit... old-fashioned?

 

[dj4aces]

They definitely don't want to get stuck with a bunch of apartments and that's it. Understandable. They should have ironed that out beforehand. They likely could have reached terms that offered a bit more protection that everybody could live with. The way they did it seemed a bit... old-fashioned?

Darth Forsyth: "We have altered the deal. Pray that we don't alter it any further."

In all seriousness, it's not a great look for the county to have done that. If there were questions and concerns, bringing those issues up should've happened before, not during the vote.

Then again, when you're playing with house money, even if it's only 11.25% of the full estimated cost, you have to account for house rules.

 

[tucker3434]

Darth Forsyth: "We have altered the deal. Pray that we don't alter it any further."

In all seriousness, it's not a great look for the county to have done that. If there were questions and concerns, bringing those issues up should've happened before, not during the vote.

Then again, when you're playing with house money, even if it's only 11.25% of the full estimated cost, you have to account for house rules.

We'll see. If this thing really does get torpedoed over a last second shift of 600 apartments, and then AC's group builds it 5 miles south, not only will Forsyth have missed out on that development, but they'll also have to compete with it. It's in everybody's interests to get something worked out.

 

[dj4aces]

We'll see. If this thing really does get torpedoed over a last second shift of 600 apartments, and then AC's group builds it 5 miles south, not only will Forsyth have missed out on that development, but they'll also have to compete with it. It's in everybody's interests to get something worked out.

Absolutely. I'm curious to see what sort of arrangement the two sides are able to come up with as a result of the last minute changes.

 

[sneakytitz]

There was also a point made that there was still room for fine tuning before the MOU was finalized, so some of Krause's stance might be posturing. The only pushback from Krause's people at the meeting seemed to come on the idea of increasing the per-ticket surcharge from $1.50 to $2.50.

A bit more insight about this for those who have never purchased a car from a Krause dealership. Every car he sales, a portion of the profit goes to charities he supports - stuff like cancer research (his daughter died from cancer), autism support, providing meals to the homeless or those in need, local public and private schools, etc. Every dealership he owns has a network of local charities they send a portion of their profit too.

Apparently he is going to do this with arena ticket sales as well, which is why he refused the county ask for a higher surcharge/share. Jones gave it a short blurb but I think his people should have pushed back and said, "You're not getting that extra dollar because it's going to help others in Forsyth and metro-Atlanta and if you have a problem with that, tell the people in this room right now." She made it sound like he was trying to starve the county of additional money when in reality, that money has been set aside, and not for his pocket.

 

[KevFu]

I need a diagram with milestones, so I can know when to actually feel good about this. I know things are moving in the right direction, but I didn't pay close enough attention with Vegas or Seattle to know where the big hurdle is (prior to the official NHL announcement of course).

I would use Seattle's timeline and completely ignore Vegas' timeline, because Vegas is a unique animal.

They were building the arena with or without the NHL (or NBA), and they can do that because like 40 million people come to the that location for entertainment already. It's a city that for the last 20 years or so has had NINE college conference basketball tournaments going on in March, using a total of five different arenas. The number of cities that built NBA/NHL arenas with no tenets for them is like two that I can think of. Everyone else is "construction pending team" so that makes Vegas' timeline asimilar.

 

[sneakytitz]

While there is no news I figured I would point out that Atlanta set it's 6th or 7th (can't remember which) attendance record for a North American soccer game yesterday. Basically anything soccer that Atlanta has ever hosted, we have the attendance record for it.

I say all that to say this: if an MLS team can come to town with absolutely no soccer history and be guided by qualified ownership and leadership, yet still set this town on fire 9 years after the fact? No reason to think the same can't happen for the NHL.

Atlanta United outsold every NHL team last year except Montreal. Yes, bigger capacity, but they did it with only 17 home games. Charlotte came in second in attendance and every NHL (minus Arizona) outsold them. Atlanta is a rare bird - you just have to get the right pieces in place and the rest takes care of itself. You never hear about Hawks, Braves, Falcons attendance woes. This place is a money making machine, irrespective of on field/court/ice product, these days.

 

[GreenHornet]

While there is no news I figured I would point out that Atlanta set it's 6th or 7th (can't remember which) attendance record for a North American soccer game yesterday. Basically anything soccer that Atlanta has ever hosted, we have the attendance record for it.

I say all that to say this: if an MLS team can come to town with absolutely no soccer history and be guided by qualified ownership and leadership, yet still set this town on fire 9 years after the fact? No reason to think the same can't happen for the NHL.

Atlanta United outsold every NHL team last year except Montreal. Yes, bigger capacity, but they did it with only 17 home games. Charlotte came in second in attendance and every NHL (minus Arizona) outsold them. Atlanta is a rare bird - you just have to get the right pieces in place and the rest takes care of itself. You never hear about Hawks, Braves, Falcons attendance woes. This place is a money making machine, irrespective of on field/court/ice product, these days.

I wouldn't say there is "absolutely no soccer history." I'm guessing you're probably aware of the three teams the city had in the old North American Soccer League -- the original Atlanta Chiefs (which won the 1968 NASL championship), the Atlanta Apollos and the Chiefs v2.0. And that's before we mention smaller league teams like the Georgia Generals and Atlanta Silverbacks, as well as the numerous tries at indoor soccer.

Granted, that history wasn't filled with much success (other than the NASL title in '68). HOWEVER, it DOES illustrate the point I think you're trying to make -- namely, how much demographic and other changes have made the metro area a much different place than it was 50, 25 or even 10 years ago, and which has made it more conducive to success of an MLS (and by extension, an NHL) franchise.

Now, that said, there were signs as far back as the late '70s and early '80s that soccer would work here. I remember late in the Chiefs' second go round, after drawing less than 10,000 per game at old Atlanta-Fulton Co. Stadium (except for rare appearances by the New York Cosmos or Tampa Bay Rowdies, the NASL's two powerhouses back then), team management decided to try to play a home game at what was then called DeKalb Memorial Stadium (a 15,000-seat high school football stadium in the eastern suburbs now called Hallford Stadium for the benefit of the non locals). That game ended up being a near sellout of 14,500, or something like that, and there was a thought of the team moving out there permanently. However, finances forced the Chiefs to play only in the NASL's indoor season for another season, and the league ended up folding a couple years later anyway.

 

[KevFu]

While there is no news I figured I would point out that Atlanta set it's 6th or 7th (can't remember which) attendance record for a North American soccer game yesterday. Basically anything soccer that Atlanta has ever hosted, we have the attendance record for it.

I say all that to say this: if an MLS team can come to town with absolutely no soccer history and be guided by qualified ownership and leadership, yet still set this town on fire 9 years after the fact? No reason to think the same can't happen for the NHL.

That's the thing... I remember in the 1990s hearing all the reasons why soccer would never work in America, and the description of "the exact opposite of a soccer fan" is word-for-word the description of the Atlanta fan base.

The SEC & NASCAR, Good Ol Boy fan base of the deep south, where they love huntin', fishin,' Bud Heavy, and third basemen named Larry who knock up Hooters waitresses... vs the Euro-flopping, "beautiful game artistry" spewing, F-slur and H-slur game of soccer.

Then I'm watching a video of like 25000 Atlantans going nuts at a watch party for US soccer... during a women's game. The only thing that made sense was that a guy in the video -- whom I assume is named Dale -- was wearing Jorts.


I've never been able to reconcile in my brain how the American south wouldn't embrace hockey. It's like football with fist-fights.

I wouldn't say there is "absolutely no soccer history."

Also, I do recall that Atlanta was a soccer hotbed in the amateur ranks. Like a lot of high school talent populating college teams, and there was a second-tier pro team (the Switchbacks? Silverbacks? Something like that) that were really good in the late 90s/early 2000s.

 

[GreenHornet]

Also, I do recall that Atlanta was a soccer hotbed in the amateur ranks. Like a lot of high school talent populating college teams, and there was a second-tier pro team (the Switchbacks? Silverbacks? Something like that) that were really good in the late 90s/early 2000s.

It was the Silverbacks of the United Soccer League. And yes, the participation popularity of soccer in metro ATL was a big reason why some folks around here thought it could succeed. I actually played when I was a kid, but gave it up when I was 13.

Anyway, here is a link that gives some details about the game the Chiefs played out in the 'burbs in 1981 (you'll have to scroll down a bit, but there is an item from Aug. 2, 1981 which also has a photo of what part of the crowd looked like). As I said, it seemed like a promising idea to move out to where there were a lot of kids playing soccer (at the time, anyway. Most of the kids playing these days are further out in Gwinnett, Cobb, North Fulton and, yes, Forsyth Counties these days). But as I said, the owners were already hemorrhaging money at that point, and the league even folded a couple years later).

https://www.soccerdownhere.net/post/on-this-date-in-atlanta-soccer-history-august-2

EDIT: After a Google search, I completely forgot that Ted Turner owned a piece of the Atlanta Chiefs v2.0.

 

[KevFu]

It was the Silverbacks of the United Soccer League. And yes, the participation popularity of soccer in metro ATL was a big reason why some folks around here thought it could succeed. I actually played when I was a kid, but gave it up when I was 13.

I feel like the "unexpected" awesome crowds of Atlanta United FC are because all you 13 year old players became scarf-holding, song-singing, ticket-purchasing adults.

 

[GreenHornet]

I feel like the "unexpected" awesome crowds of Atlanta United FC are because all you 13 year old players became scarf-holding, song-singing, ticket-purchasing adults.

Nah, I never "held" a scarf in my life. In fact, the only reason I ever played the game at all was that I was too small to play football in the fall, and I was already playing baseball in the spring.

Be that as it may, you have a point that a lot of the kids playing in the late '70s, '80s and '90s did help with Atlanta United's popularity. However, I think you have to also credit the rise in the population from futbol-hotbed Central and South American countries, as well as a smaller influx of fans from Europe moving into the metro area.

 

[Bijelo]

Many NHL teams have blue and black shirt colours.

Is it black and green home shirt and white and green away shirt not old blue shirt?

 

[LadyStanley]

 

[StreetHawk]

I would use Seattle's timeline and completely ignore Vegas' timeline, because Vegas is a unique animal.

They were building the arena with or without the NHL (or NBA), and they can do that because like 40 million people come to the that location for entertainment already. It's a city that for the last 20 years or so has had NINE college conference basketball tournaments going on in March, using a total of five different arenas. The number of cities that built NBA/NHL arenas with no tenets for them is like two that I can think of. Everyone else is "construction pending team" so that makes Vegas' timeline asimilar.

Your current arena has to be massively outdated for the city to replace it. Key Arena was still functional for concerts, so the city wasn't going to redo it to the extent that OVG did without a main tenant.

SD, ultimately getting close to needing to replace their arena. Could they land an NBA/NHL team? NBA, not for a while as SEA/LV are the 2 next expansion teams. So, only a relocation. NHL, hard to say whether the NHL wants a 4th team in Cali.