Possible trade and roster fixes for the Wings, Part III

[Crymson]

It's not about physicality. It's about toughness and ability to drop gloves if needed. But end of story I know you do not appreciate toughness and fighting in this board and maybe it's time for me to move on also. Hockey goes on and we will never have those golden times back when no one ****ed with Red Wings.

I think you're stuck in the 1980s, because since 1995, the Wings have had both the lowest aggregate number of fights and the greatest amount of success of any team in the league. But hey, if the latter stages of the Dead Wings era was the "golden times" for you, then have fun with that.

Of course, you won't find those "golden times" anywhere now, because the number of fights per game these days is less than a third what it was during fighting's peak in the 80s, and quite a few reputable hockey persons advocate doing away with fighting altogether. So yes, I'd say it's high time for you to move on.

Not to mention Edler is more physical than both Myers and Greene.

He's also terrible defensively, a fact habitually overlooked by many who participate in these discussions.

right now vancouver and buffalo are at their weakest, they may not move either but should they then today is the time to strike

the perfect cascade of events in our favour are at work rigth now

Er, no. Right now, at the deadline, sellers are at their strongest. There are many teams that want to get better for a playoff run, and there are few teams willing to sell. That places the negotiating power purely in the hands of the latter, who can and will charge fairly exorbitant prices.

 

[SoupNazi]

Hockey goes on and we will never have those golden times back when no one ****ed with Red Wings.

And there is less and less fighting going on in general. So we may never have those good times back, but other teams won't either.

 

[theanomaly]

Ah, cave man logic.

cherry logic.

reminds me of that year when he had the ice dogs built with only "tough canadian boys". how did they do again?

 

[Crymson]

cherry logic.

reminds me of that year when he had the ice dogs built with only "tough canadian boys". how did they do again?

I've always loved the old refrain that if Cherry ever became commissioner of the NHL, his first act would be to expel all non-North American players. He really is the ultimate hockey bigot.

 

[Phil18]

Ryan Kesler

I saw a couple article speaking of Ryan Kesler possible destination if he end up being trade. He is native from Michigan and it surprise me that i didn't see any topics about him. Would you guys like to see the #17 in the Red Wings jersey and what could he cost us? I think Helm could be a good trade asset if we include a 1st round pick (wich would not surprise me since we always trade them haha) and an establish prospect.

http://www.tsn.ca/tradecentre/story/?id=444933

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Vancouver is asking for the moon supposedly. Nobody here knows the exact price, but it's likely higher than 1st, roster player, high end prospect. Gillis is doing the Garth Snow thing where you wait for a stupid/desperate GM to overpay. He's supposedly doing the same with Edler.

I think the Wings would be smart to avoid those two, because they don't want to make rational hockey deals. They just want to take advantage of somebody.

 

[Henkka]

Kessler said he would only go to Pitt, Philly, Detroit, or Chicago. Only eastern time zones except Chicago. That alone is a problem and the value isn't really there.

If that's the case, I'm really starting to think he could be coming to Detroit. Pens and Philly can't get him under the cap (or maybe somehow, but it's not anyhow easy to be done) and I believe Canucks will want to trade him off from the West.

Detroit can give those rebuilding/retooling pieces and in Wings situation there isn't any cap reasons needed to send salary to Canucks direction. Zetterberg LTIR creates the room.

I suggested this at the trade forum:

Wings don't need to dump salary, because Zetterberg is on LTIR for the rest of the season and if some other roster players are going to other way.

Ryan Kesler
<>
Justin Abdelkader or Darren Helm
Tomas Tatar or Gustav Nyquist
Jakub Kindl or 2015 1st rounder

That's my offer.

One Canucks fan was fine with Helm + Nyquist + 2015 1st rounder -package. Even with that weaker 2014 draft, I don't want to give this years pick, because we still have high probability to sink if injuries hit again, and then we could draft high. 2015 should be a better year for us.

Then we could have:

Akader - Datsyuk - Kesler
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie
Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar
Miller - Andersson - Bertuzzi

at playoff time:
Zeta - Datsyuk - Kesler
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie
Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar
Miller - Andersson - Akader

A bit different look.

 

[Crymson]

You're a bit late to the party.

 

[Petes2424]

Vancouver is asking for the moon supposedly. Nobody here knows the exact price, but it's likely higher than 1st, roster player, high end prospect. Gillis is doing the Garth Snow thing where you wait for a stupid/desperate GM to overpay. He's supposedly doing the same with Edler.

I think the Wings would be smart to avoid those two, because they don't want to make rational hockey deals. They just want to take advantage of somebody.

Depends on the cost. Adding both those players immediately makes the Wings very relevant in the East even with Zetterberg injured. When you have that many quality prospects, you open up situations like this to take advantage of.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Depends on the cost. Adding both those players immediately makes the Wings very relevant in the East even with Zetterberg injured. When you have that many quality prospects, you open up situations like this to take advantage of.

It's the same old song and dance. Other teams don't see our prospects the way we do and won't accept them as payment, or value them much less. I bet some teams still don't want Mantha even if the Wings would trade him. Teams are probably focusing in on Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser, maybe Jurco, and then the 2015 1st.

I'm almost positive Vancouver wouldn't accept Nyquist, 2015 1st, Mantha for Kesler. That's the kind of price we're talking about. (They likely want that for Edler instead.) Vancouver wants a blockbuster return for Kesler.

 

[Henkka]

Kesler gives you a local big 6'2 / 202lbs physical guy, who can play PK, is a faceoff specialist, is right-handed, can play net-front role and has a great right-handed one-timer shot. Can play Center or a Right wing.

That's pretty much a most perfect player type we can ever imagine to get in this team. We miss all those tools.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

If that's the case, I'm really starting to think he could be coming to Detroit. Pens and Philly can't get him under the cap (or maybe somehow, but it's not anyhow easy to be done) and I believe Canucks will want to trade him off from the West.

Detroit can give those rebuilding/retooling pieces and in Wings situation there isn't any cap reasons needed to send salary to Canucks direction. Zetterberg LTIR creates the room.

I suggested this at the trade forum:


One Canucks fan was fine with Helm + Nyquist + 2015 1st rounder -package. Even with that weaker 2014 draft, I don't want to give this years pick, because we still have high probability to sink if injuries hit again, and then we could draft high. 2015 should be a better year for us.

Then we could have:

Akader - Datsyuk - Kesler
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie
Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar
Miller - Andersson - Bertuzzi

at playoff time:
Zeta - Datsyuk - Kesler
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie
Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar
Miller - Andersson - Akader

A bit different look.

Change Nyquist to Tatar, and I'd do it. I don't wanna give up Helm, Tatar, or Nyquist, but Tatar, Helm, and a first? I'd bite that bullet, begrudgingly.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Kesler gives you a local big 6'2 / 202lbs physical guy, who can play PK, is a faceoff specialist, is right-handed, can play net-front role and has a great right-handed one-timer shot. Can play Center or a Right wing.

That's pretty much a most perfect player type we can ever imagine to get in this team. We miss all those tools.

He also gets whiny when he isn't allowed to play center. My impression is that he's like Dion Phaneuf in the lockerroom: if you let him be THE GUY, then he's happy and a good presence. But if he has to be a complementary player, he's a bit of a cancer. And rumors of him being a handful have followed him around his entire career. (Even from college, where his teammates supposedly did not like him at all.) It's unlikely Kesler would be happy at all to play third fiddle to Zetterberg and Datsyuk.

Let's not forget that he's injury prone, offensively declining, and plays a position that's already very strong for the Wings in center. It sounds nice in theory to land a player as good as Kesler, but it's a pain in the ass logistically. Weiss would almost certainly have to go the other way, and there's little chance of Vancouver taking his contract after the whole David Booth incident.

On top of that, the Wings' weakness was never at center (or even at forward, IMO) anyway. The defense is still weak, and in acquiring Kesler we probably gave up our best pieces to land a good defenseman anyway.

I don't think the Wings should trade for Kesler. It makes sense at first, but when you think about what the team would have to look like in order to make sense... it falls apart. On top of that, he's shown a bad attitude time and time again. and then he's declining offensively.

and for what? So the Wings can get to the second round before their somewhat weak defense gets pounded and they lose? I don't think this trade makes the team good enough for the price Vancouver is asking. If the Wings are going to give out good young players, they need to get a good defenseman. That will actually improve the team. It's a need. More center depth, even if it's very good, is just a luxury at this point.

 

[Brandel*]

He's looking very good today, maybe his last game in Van too. I'm not confident he'll get traded but it is rumored he'll only go Philly, Pit, Det and Chi so we'll see. Also, apparently Chicago isn't interested so that leaves 3 teams.

 

[Henkka]

So the Wings can get to the second round before their somewhat weak defense gets pounded and they lose? I don't think this trade makes the team good enough for the price Vancouver is asking. If the Wings are going to give out good young players, they need to get a good defenseman. That will actually improve the team. It's a need. More center depth, even if it's very good, is just a luxury at this point.

Let's extend the package for Edler also.

I also would like to bolster the defence.

 

[ricky0034]

Kesler gives you a local big 6'2 / 202lbs physical guy, who can play PK, is a faceoff specialist, is right-handed, can play net-front role and has a great right-handed one-timer shot. Can play Center or a Right wing.

That's pretty much a most perfect player type we can ever imagine to get in this team. We miss all those tools.

you forgot how he's way past his peak and Nyquist is already better than him offensively at a fraction of the cost

but nah let's trade Nyquist for him and toss in Helm and a first

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Let's extend the package for Edler also.

I also would like to bolster the defence.

I'd consider that, but the price alone would make me weep.

It'd probably cost the Wings the better part of their young guys. Probably 3 of them and then a 1st and a roster player. Nyquist+Sheahan+DeKeyser+2015 1st+Helm for Kesler+Edler. That might not even be enough for them...

 

[Henkka]

In old trade discussions, people were happy for Tatar + Quincey + 3rd packages for Edler.

So lets extend it:

Kesler
Edler
2015 6th
2014 7th

<>

Quincey
Helm
Nyquist
Tatar
2015 1st
2014 3rd

Some day, when all guys healthy:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Kesler (5'11 Left - 5'11 Left - 6'2 Right)
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie (6'3 Left - 5'11 Left - 5'11 Right)
Jurco - Sheahan - Bertuzzi (6'2 Left - 6'2 Left - 6'3 Left)
Miller - Andersson - Abdelkader (6'2 Left - 6'2 Left - 6'1 Left)
(Cleary, Eaves)

Kronwall - Ericsson
Edler - DeKeyser
Kindl - Smith
Lashoff

Growing bigger...


At next season:

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Kesler (5'11 Left - 5'11 Left - 6'2 Right)
Franzen - Weiss - Alfie (6'3 Left - 5'11 Left - 5'11 Right)
Jurco - Sheahan - Pulkkinen (6'2 Left - 6'2 Left - 5'10 Right)
Callahan - Andersson - Abdelkader (6'0 Right - 6'2 Left - 6'1 Left)
(Miller, Ferraro)

When Alfie is gone, bring in Mantha. If Järnkrok does pan out enough good, trade Weiss somewhere (after two seasons, his NMC will end).

The point is, no matter how good Nyquist and Tatar are now looking, and even if they will be career-Red Wings, they will be passed by Jurco and Mantha for the 1st line duties at some point. They will be 2nd liners at maximum. Like Filppula and Hudler were. You trade those kind of guys and keep your best pieces, like Jurco, Sheahan and Mantha. Also Järnkrok, Pulkkinen and Athanasiou could give you a next wave of 2nd liners pretty soon.

So you can give some young guys go. All of them will never be in this team at same time.

 

[Frk It]

Trying to trade for both Edler and Kesler is absolutely overkill.

We need a top 4 D. Kesler is a want and not a need.
Would not be surprised at all if 2-3 years from now Nyquist is putting up more pts than Kesler.

 

[MTU hockey]

The point is, no matter how good Nyquist and Tatar are now looking, and even if they will be career-Red Wings, they will be passed by Jurco and Mantha for the 1st line duties at some point. They will be 2nd liners at maximum. Like Filppula and Hudler were. You trade those kind of guys and keep your best pieces, like Jurco, Sheahan and Mantha. Also Järnkrok, Pulkkinen and Athanasiou could give you a next wave of 2nd liners pretty soon.

So you can give some young guys go. All of them will never be in this team at same time.

I agree with the bolded in regards to Tatar. But I'm not so sure that Nyquist will be just a second liner.

 

[ricky0034]

Trying to trade for both Edler and Kesler is absolutely overkill.

We need a top 4 D. Kesler is a want and not a need.
Would not be surprised at all if 2-3 years from now Nyquist is putting up more pts than Kesler.

he already pretty much is,he's just played like half the games because of Holland

Nyquist has 12 less points than Kesler in 26 less games this year(would only need to score at better than a 38 point pace in those games he missed to have more) and 6 less goals than Kesler in 26 less games(would need better than a 19 goal pace in the games he missed to have more)

I agree with the bolded in regards to Tatar. But I'm not so sure that Nyquist will be just a second liner.

it's just a weird way of thinking that presumes that a 2nd liner is a 2nd liner

but not all 2nd liners are created equal,if Jurco and Mantha pass Nyquist(which is possible) it's because they became legitimately great players. that wouldn't be a knock on Nyquist and Nyquist would be more of a 1st liner that happens to be behind even better players at that point

 

[AD1066]

Nyquist is already scoring at a higher rate than Kesler, and I don't see Kesler aging well.

I thought some were upset when we got Weiss because he's over 30 (which Kesler will be in August) and has an injury history (Kesler has had surgery for a torn labrum and also a wrist injury and broken foot).

 

[silkyjohnson50]

We're okay giving up Helm, Nyquist, and a 1st for Kesler?!

Yeah, I can't wait for this deadline to pass now.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

we dont need kesler

though I know the price wont be as crazy as some say, it simply makes no sense.

we need a dman

we wanna add some more scoring, then wait till july 1st and after we shored up our blueline..

 

[TatarTangle]

Growing bigger...

Size doesn't always mean winning more hockey games or having a better team. That is a myth.