OT: Possible LIRR Strike **Tentative Deal Reached**

[stranger34]

I guess I didnt make my point very eloquently. I'm trying to say that in a corporate environment you are paid what you are worth to the company. Typically that is a cost benefit analysis based on how much you bring versus how much you cost to the company. This simply cannot be done for teachers. There is no tangible benefit to having experienced teachers vs 1st year teachers except to the prestige of the school and the education of the children, which is all well and good, but it means nothing when they have a budget crunch and need to get rid of teachers. If there were no tenure (as there wasnt back in the day), they would summarily fire higher paid teachers because there is, in no tangible way, a benefit to having them on staff. this is definitely not the case in the corporate world.
Tangentially, i have worked in the corporate world so this is not pie in the sky to me. You are paid what you are worth to the company. This equation does not work in teaching or in LIRR in a lot of cases for that matter.

I agree with you on the equation not working for teachers.

With regards to LIRR workers most of them are lucky that they haven't automated the ticket process to where their jobs don't exist at all anymore.

 

[On Edge]

I guess I didnt make my point very eloquently. I'm trying to say that in a corporate environment you are paid what you are worth to the company. Typically that is a cost benefit analysis based on how much you bring versus how much you cost to the company. This simply cannot be done for teachers. There is no tangible benefit to having experienced teachers vs 1st year teachers except to the prestige of the school and the education of the children, which is all well and good, but it means nothing when they have a budget crunch and need to get rid of teachers. If there were no tenure (as there wasnt back in the day), they would summarily fire higher paid teachers because there is, in no tangible way, a benefit to having them on staff. this is definitely not the case in the corporate world.
Tangentially, i have worked in the corporate world so this is not pie in the sky to me. You are paid what you are worth to the company. This equation does not work in teaching or in LIRR in a lot of cases for that matter.

I get your point - you did make it well. I understand the need for the concept of tenure but some unions took the spirit of tenure and made it the employment lottery. Might as well call it what it is; an annuity instead of tenure. I wish I had an answer for it but I don't.

I have to laugh, I worked my ass off my whole life. My mom always told me to take a civil service job and I'd be set for life. She was right. That is not a criticism it's an observation and opinion. I was in the military for 6 years - I get it (though there are virtually zero benefits to veterans served around 1978-1985 but that's another argument!). My feeling as a young man after the service was there was no way I wanted to be a "bureaucrat" at 25. I wanted to make stuff, be creative and be an entrepreneur!

Measuring performance is easier in corporate world. But how do you measure performance of a secretary, an accountant or other corporate positions? I'd say those same principles can and should apply to public positions but all too often it does not and hackles get raised that ANY evaluations (unless tied into pay increases) are inherently unfair.

I guess my point is having tenure should not be the bullet proof vest protecting a bad civil servant/police officer/teacher from accountability, but all too often it does.

I'd love to do a word association game with the word "tenured". My guess is it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[Isles5513]

I know they are greedy bums, and they are screwing us riders over. Do you know that their statistics are lies ? They consider anything up to 5 minutes after their alleged arrival time, is ON TIME. Bunch of crooks. You know why they are working without a contract for 4 year ? Because they are God damned greedy. F them and anybody who sides with the greedy jerks.

Amen!

 

[BossyMVP]

I get your point - you did make it well. I understand the need for the concept of tenure but some unions took the spirit of tenure and made it the employment lottery. Might as well call it what it is; an annuity instead of tenure. I wish I had an answer for it but I don't.

I have to laugh, I worked my ass off my whole life. My mom always told me to take a civil service job and I'd be set for life. She was right. That is not a criticism it's an observation and opinion. I was in the military for 6 years - I get it (though there are virtually zero benefits to veterans served around 1978-1985 but that's another argument!). My feeling as a young man after the service was there was no way I wanted to be a "bureaucrat" at 25. I wanted to make stuff, be creative and be an entrepreneur!

Measuring performance is easier in corporate world. But how do you measure performance of a secretary, an accountant or other corporate positions? I'd say those same principles can and should apply to public positions but all too often it does not and hackles get raised that ANY evaluations (unless tied into pay increases) are inherently unfair.

I guess my point is having tenure should not be the bullet proof vest protecting a bad civil servant/police officer/teacher from accountability, but all too often it does.

I'd love to do a word association game with the word "tenured". My guess is it wouldn't be pretty.

My guess is that if you get rid of the word "tenure", the best teachers wouldn't be there for your kids. Eventually they would treat teachers as a corporate entity and then get rid of teachers based on performance. And since its so easy to measure a teachers performance on the test scores of a 12 year old, that would be the perfect solution. Or maybe it would be like GM letting Cars go to the public even though they cause deaths. Once again, teachers are the problem.

Every parent should thank god of tenure because with tenure, I protect the GM's of the world of running your kids education. And every year, I have parents thank me for being their kids teacher. This happens because GM..."the mayor", can't fire me.

YOUR WELCOME!

 

[beach]

Raleigh is nice, but I'm not a big fan of land locked cities

Me neither, but Carolina Beach is just a 2 hour drive.

 

[beach]

Cary, N.C.

Congested Area of Relocated Yanks.

I've been to the RDC area. At times you would think you never left the northeast.

Haha! We call it Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

 

[Strome18]

[/B]

My guess is that if you get rid of the word "tenure", the best teachers wouldn't be there for your kids. Eventually they would treat teachers as a corporate entity and then get rid of teachers based on performance. And since its so easy to measure a teachers performance on the test scores of a 12 year old, that would be the perfect solution. Or maybe it would be like GM letting Cars go to the public even though they cause deaths. Once again, teachers are the problem.

Every parent should thank god of tenure because with tenure, I protect the GM's of the world of running your kids education. And every year, I have parents thank me for being their kids teacher. This happens because GM..."the mayor", can't fire me.

YOUR WELCOME!

Though I like you as a poster.

 

[On Edge]

I'm not part of a union. I'm part of the disjointed class of lawyers that have virtually no organization: private criminal defense lawyers.

That said, I simply cannot understand how someone can honestly rail against union workers as being lazy and overpaid. These people organized, because they have a unique skillset, and collectively bargained with the employer to reach terms that were mutually acceptable. Who is ANYONE to stand up and stick their nose into the terms reached by the parties, or not reached because the sides can't agree.

It seems to me that most folks should be siding in with their fellow socioeconomic classes, instead of pretending to identify with the boardmembers of corporations, or the department of education administrators.

With the income gap continuing to expand, I sit in awe at the notion that the problem is with union workers; rather than the unprecedented payscales of America's elite.

But hey, I'm outside the equation; my field is a meritocracy. I get paid by regular people, in amounts I dictate, to protect them from the evils of the government.

A "unique skillset"? LIRR workers? I'd have to disagree there.

I'd also bet that the extent of union involvement of 95% or so is when they signed their union cards.

Any deal that these knuckleheads come up with should be mutually acceptable to both parties! It should only be unacceptable to anyone who has had to pay/ride the LIRR as a customer.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

[/B]

My guess is that if you get rid of the word "tenure", the best teachers wouldn't be there for your kids. Eventually they would treat teachers as a corporate entity and then get rid of teachers based on performance. And since its so easy to measure a teachers performance on the test scores of a 12 year old, that would be the perfect solution. Or maybe it would be like GM letting Cars go to the public even though they cause deaths. Once again, teachers are the problem.

Every parent should thank god of tenure because with tenure, I protect the GM's of the world of running your kids education. And every year, I have parents thank me for being their kids teacher. This happens because GM..."the mayor", can't fire me.

YOUR WELCOME!

It has been my general finding that the biggest pieces of turd in the schools are in the admin offices and not the teachers. And those people are not union and have no tenure.

 

[BossyMVP]

Though I like you as a poster.

Is it the YOUR and not YOU'RE....I'm sorry, I only teach math.

 

[On Edge]

[/B]

My guess is that if you get rid of the word "tenure", the best teachers wouldn't be there for your kids. Eventually they would treat teachers as a corporate entity and then get rid of teachers based on performance. And since its so easy to measure a teachers performance on the test scores of a 12 year old, that would be the perfect solution. Or maybe it would be like GM letting Cars go to the public even though they cause deaths. Once again, teachers are the problem.

Every parent should thank god of tenure because with tenure, I protect the GM's of the world of running your kids education. And every year, I have parents thank me for being their kids teacher. This happens because GM..."the mayor", can't fire me.

YOUR WELCOME!

This guy is not helping your cause TK! Just when I was enjoying an intelligent debate!

 

[Strome18]

Is it the YOUR and not YOU'RE....I'm sorry, I only teach math.

 

[Kane One]

Since the impending LIRR strike will probably have an effect on a good amount of people on here I thought creating a thread would be a good idea.

I am working as an intern in the city right now, and during the semester I'm a full time student at a college in Manhattan, so this **** is going to suck. There's no shot I'm driving into the city, parking and traffic are going to be catastrophic.

What are all you commuters doing in the event of a strike?

I live in NY and my internship is in LI. I'll be ****ed.

 

[BossyMVP]

This guy is not helping your cause TK! Just when I was enjoying an intelligent debate!

I understand you have no idea what I am talking about. You are not the one in the meetings I am in. You no nothing about this debate except for what you read. I am the one in front of the kids, in the meetings with the parents, and the one that stands up for the kids when my school wants to spend thousands of dollars on worthless materials. I am there. Where are you? Reading Newsday and the new york post. Don't act like a smart guy by saying your having an intelligent conversation interrupted by me. You are on the outside acting like you know what is happening.

 

[On Edge]

I understand you have no idea what I am talking about. You are not the one in the meetings I am in. You no nothing about this debate except for what you read. I am the one in front of the kids, in the meetings with the parents, and the one that stands up for the kids when my school wants to spend thousands of dollars on worthless materials. I am there. Where are you? Reading Newsday and the new york post. Don't act like a smart guy by saying your having an intelligent conversation interrupted by me. You are on the outside acting like you know what is happening.

Ok here we go. This is probably not the place to let go but here it is.

The more you write the more it is clear you have no idea what you'RE talking about and you are making assumptions that are just completey wrong. I know what I'm talking about. If you want to really get into it, you're picking a fight with the wrong guy.

I am far more on the inside than you can ever realize and have dealt with more numb sculls that include public school board members, teachers and administators than I care to even number having raised 5 kids in one of the largest school systems in NYS.

As a VERY ACTIVE parent of a learning disabled student I've given testimony at least a dozen times to the school board over the past 20 years on the failings of the NYS Special Ed / IEP programs (my son is now a college student - mechanical engineering major by the way - who had a 3.5 GPA his first year - NO thanks to the school system. One or two teachers, yes. But the credit really goes to my son who overcame the his own challenges as well as the obstacles that the school system and the teachers put in front of him - many of them who said he was not capable of attending college). I had to fight, claw and threaten to make sure my son had the opportunity to succeed instead of being buried in the IEP system.

I have attented countless IEP evaluation meetings (and always insisted that my son be included so he owned it and heard first hand what his evaluators had to say) and fought to make sure my kid (and other learning disabled kids) were getting the funding and education that they deserved.

I fought and testified to the school board for the requirement of NYS public schools to require Ecocardiograms of student athletes prior to participation in team sports. This is as a father of a son who was lucky to survive a serious cardiac event during an athletic event at his high school that was entirely preventable. All this as a volunteer baseball and hockey coach. Have probably been to and participated in more budget and and school board meetings than you could even imagine over the past 20 years.

I know what I'm talking about and have had more than my fill of smug, know-it all teachers who know nothing about what it takes to actually raise a kid and providing them the skills they need to survive. Ask anyone to go out on a limb for a kid in one of these meetings and all you hear is crickets. Then after hearing from some of the teachers saying they completely agreed with me but didn't have the courage to speak up when it counted.

It all has to do with education at home and at school but frankly, I felt a strong need to protect my kids from bad teachers who were either overwhelmed, not qualified or just disinterested in anything else but the curriculum right in front of them. I've seen plenty of teachers who are "there" but otherwise looking for the bell.

 

[Islespuck89]

I love when people comment on what people should earn or when they are overpaid. I'm a teacher for 10 years. I make $69k a year, work 6 hours on sundays and 2 hours on avg. every school night. I'm glad this guy knows what i should earn. I accept the 69k b/c of what I can get in healthcare and pension. I have a Bachelors in Finance and a masters in math and education. But I guess I make too much. Not the CEO making $50 mil a year that pays $250 taxes a year, but me. Making 69, but coming home with 35. Yep. Us teachers are the cause of the downfall of western civilization.

There' something wrong with that, my wife works for one of the charter schools that DiBlasio hates. She is going on her 2nd year and had 1 year as a contract teacher before this job through an agency, that job was right after she got her masters. She get's paid 66k a year and only pays $40 a month for our health insurance. She doesn't get the pension NYC teachers get, but they match up to 7% of your salary at 100%. There is the typical charter BS also.

 

[blitzkriegs]

since when did laborers not have the right to strike? What is wrong with you people? Are laborers simply supposed to be at the mercy of the Oligarchs? We, The People don't have the right to organize and withhold our services if we are not being fairly treated? If they offered us $3 an hour while they sipped champagne would that be okay? When do we stand up for ourselves and stop acquiescing to the demands of those with the purse power?

Fairly treated? A good portion of these 'protected' jobs are lower wage jobs that have morphed into so much more causing drag on the system. Again, the consumer sees an almost REQUIRED cost to him/her rise, yet the service is inconsistent with that.

If you are Unfairly treated, move on. Find somewhere else.
But, they won't because the milk money ain't so easy on the other side w/o all the protections...

 

[blitzkriegs]

I agree with you on the equation not working for teachers.

With regards to LIRR workers most of them are lucky that they haven't automated the ticket process to where their jobs don't exist at all anymore.

They have a vested interest to not automate... Why are there sanitation workers that 'pick up' garbage cana yet in many other states they have bigger cans and hydraulic trucks that pick up heavier loads. Cleaner and more efficient, no?

 

[LeapOnOver]

I understand you have no idea what I am talking about. You are not the one in the meetings I am in. You no nothing about this debate except for what you read. I am the one in front of the kids, in the meetings with the parents, and the one that stands up for the kids when my school wants to spend thousands of dollars on worthless materials. I am there. Where are you? Reading Newsday and the new york post. Don't act like a smart guy by saying your having an intelligent conversation interrupted by me. You are on the outside acting like you know what is happening.

know

 

[fnfelon]

The LIRR strike threat is very much about local Democratic Party kabuki theater. The poor straphangers, of which I was one for many years, are caught in the middle. Now our Governor, just in time for the local elections, will ride in with his white hat and find a solution in which taxpayers will foot the bill. While we're discussing Cuomo's, my fellow Islanders should remember Cuomo the Elder and the Shoreham disaster when they get their next thousand dollar bill from PSE&G.

 

[Bones45]

I love when people comment on what people should earn or when they are overpaid. I'm a teacher for 10 years. I make $69k a year, work 6 hours on sundays and 2 hours on avg. every school night. I'm glad this guy knows what i should earn. I accept the 69k b/c of what I can get in healthcare and pension. I have a Bachelors in Finance and a masters in math and education. But I guess I make too much. Not the CEO making $50 mil a year that pays $250 taxes a year, but me. Making 69, but coming home with 35. Yep. Us teachers are the cause of the downfall of western civilization.

A bit dramatic, no? Like I said, it was my opinion of their jobs (HS English and Jr High Social Studies), and nobody else's.

 

[Bones45]

hearing that the two sides are pretty close. Good news.

 

[periferal]

I just came here for a strike update and saw this thread already went off the rails (pun intended).

We just need to get into it on any topic don't we...?

 

[lorwood]

hearing that the two sides are pretty close. Good news.

I have an Uncle that tells me a deal is done.....They just want to wait until after the British Open is over to make the announcement.

 

[TeamKidd]

I get your point - you did make it well. I understand the need for the concept of tenure but some unions took the spirit of tenure and made it the employment lottery. Might as well call it what it is; an annuity instead of tenure. I wish I had an answer for it but I don't.

Just understand that a lot of teachers (almost 50% by some measure) do not get to tenure. theoretically only the best get tenure, which goes a ways towards explaining why so few get fired, even when the district moves to fire them. it speaks to the difficulty on measuring teachers as the basis for doing so is so ambiguous.

Bottom line is if you see a bad teacher, wonder who hired them and then who gave them tenure. Those are the people who deserve the vitriol. I can honestly say I know almost no teachers who "sit on their ass, do nothing and collect a paycheck" (which is something a parent screamed at me recently for having the nerve to tell them their kid was not getting recommended for advanced because their grades were in the 70s) but i digress...

I have to laugh, I worked my ass off my whole life. My mom always told me to take a civil service job and I'd be set for life. She was right. That is not a criticism it's an observation and opinion. I was in the military for 6 years - I get it (though there are virtually zero benefits to veterans served around 1978-1985 but that's another argument!). My feeling as a young man after the service was there was no way I wanted to be a "bureaucrat" at 25. I wanted to make stuff, be creative and be an entrepreneur!

So have I. This is a common misconception. Yes, teachers get summers off. Kids need time off from school. Teachers cannot just go out and be hired for anything other than transient work over the summer so they are paid enough to last the year.
I worked in private industry and decided to become a teacher to help kids. I traded in the possibility of moving up the corporate ladder or becoming wildly successful at my own business and making millions for a steady stable job with good benefits and a nice retirement. we all make choices. this was mine.

The fallicy that is being perpetrated by newsday and by the corporate elite is that public sector employees are the drag on this economy when it is corporate welfare, giveaways, tax breaks etc that are siphoning our money away. why should oil companies get billions in tax breaks but teachers or cops or lirr workers get chided for making a few scratch more than some people think is fair? they are the thieves and its a neat trick they pull, pitting us against each other while they raid the kitty and drink champagne.

I guess my point is having tenure should not be the bullet proof vest protecting a bad civil servant/police officer/teacher from accountability, but all too often it does.

I'd love to do a word association game with the word "tenured". My guess is it wouldn't be pretty.

you are right, it should be easier to fire bad teachers. the problem is finding appropriate metrics to evaluate teachers. i am more than my kids test grades. as i've asked before, why do some kids in my class get a 99 average and others get a 50 average?