WC: Poland 2024 roster talk.

[legionista]

Seriously, dude. It's right there in the screenshots.

They are more productive in PHL than in Norway or Denmark or Finland.

That's not proof of PHL being on par with those leagues. That's proof of PHL being an easier league to produce in, i.e., it's a weaker league.

The bulk of Finns and Swedes have mostly played in Mestis and Swedish 3rd division. Which is what the level of play in PHL corresponds to (or is 'on par' with).

Where was I comparing level of PHL to Norway, Denmark, or Finland??? Lol

I'm just pointing out your incorrect statement that Moonta and Trkulja are pure Allsvenskan or Mestis players, where clearly they are not per the EP screenshot. Moonta came to PHL directly from Liiga, look at the EP screenshot.

 

[SoundAndFury]

1: KHL
2: NLA
3: SHL
4: Liiga
5: DEL
6: czech league
7: Slovak League
8: EBEL
9, Polish league

if we rank the euro leagues right now

This ranking is extremely disingenuous and you know it. While it has a semblance of truth at the top, you know perfectly well Polish, Danish, Norwegian, and Belarussian leagues, DEL2, EIHL are at best "too close to call". Even though obviously various arguments can be made league A is stronger than league B.

Also you are obviously missing Allsvenskan in there but I will assume that's part of the shtick.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I'm just pointing out your incorrect statement that Moonta and Trkulja are pure Allsvenskan or Mestis players, where clearly they are not per the EP screenshot. Moonta came to PHL directly from Liiga, look at the EP screenshot.

I don't understand why all this grasping at straws. The man was 4th liner in the Liiga and now he is over PPG on the strongest team in Poland. All this just reinforces the initial argument, that the strongest players in the Polish league could hardly play in the AHL. They could, but definitely not "easily" as your initial post claimed and projecting them at the ECHL level is much more realistic.

Like nobody has an agenda against Poland or Polish hockey, I think there is a serious argument to be made that I'm the person who has written most about the Polish NT on these boards over the years. And same goes to other people in this thread, many of them were interested in it when almost nobody else was. But at this point, maybe influenced by Poland being promoted to the Elite (which pretty much everyone posting in this thread was really happy with), there seem to be people who are objective about it and there are people who are just riding the wave of Polish hockey being more than it is.

 

[Namejs]

Where was I comparing level of PHL to Norway, Denmark, or Finland??? Lol

I'm just pointing out your incorrect statement that Moonta and Trkulja are pure Allsvenskan or Mestis players, where clearly they are not per the EP screenshot. Moonta came to PHL directly from Liiga, look at the EP screenshot.

We're not discussing Trulja or Monta, we're discussing the level of play in PHL.

The foreign imports from Sweden and Finland were successful in Mestis and Hockeyettan and managed to get signed in Liiga and Allsvenskan where they failed to produce. And moved to Poland afterwards.

Hence in terms of point equivalency between the different leagues, Mestis and Hockeyettan are valid comparables to PHL. Not Liiga. Or Allsvenskan. Or ECHL.

 

[legionista]

We're not discussing Trulja or Monta, we're discussing the level of play in PHL.

The foreign imports from Sweden and Finland were successful in Mestis and Hockeyettan and managed to get signed in Liiga and Allsvenskan where they failed to produce. And moved to Poland afterwards.

Hence in terms of point equivalency between the different leagues, Mestis and Hockeyettan are valid comparables to PHL. Not Liiga. Or Allsvenskan. Or ECHL.

Yea, and nowhere was I saying that PHL is same level of play as Liiga, SHL or even Allsvenskan, I really don't know where you're coming up with these assertions.
Having said that, you're implying ECHL is same level as Liiga when it clearly is below Liiga, and maybe even lower than Allsvenskan and I know it's difficult comparing NA leagues to Euro leagues.

 

[kabidjan18]

I think PHL is a bit better than Mestis and HockeyEttan but well below Allsvenskan and closer to the former two than the latter.

The thing about Poland though is that they perennially punch above their weight. The team outperforms the sum of its parts, I could see it coming down to Poland and Kazakhstan and Kazakhstan winning by only one or two goals.

 

[legionista]

I don't understand why all this grasping at straws. The man was 4th liner in the Liiga and now he is over PPG on the strongest team in Poland. All this just reinforces the initial argument, that the strongest players in the Polish league could hardly play in the AHL. They could, but definitely not "easily" as your initial post claimed and projecting them at the ECHL level is much more realistic.

Like nobody has an agenda against Poland or Polish hockey, I think there is a serious argument to be made that I'm the person who has written most about the Polish NT on these boards over the years. And same goes to other people in this thread, many of them were interested in it when almost nobody else was. But at this point, maybe influenced by Poland being promoted to the Elite (which pretty much everyone posting in this thread was really happy with), there seem to be people who are objective about it and there are people who are just riding the wave of Polish hockey being more than it is.

Based on the bold part of your post you're contradicting yourself in a way. If we can all agree the NA tiers are NHL > AHL > ECHL, and top ECHL players could and do play for AHL teams, and ECHL is more or less equivalent to PHL, then why can't top PHL players play in AHL??? If anything in the last 10 years or so, ECHL and AHL have grown closer in level of play, where NHL is far far surpassing AHL level. I know it's a video game, but look at team and player ratings in NHL 24 and you can more or less come up with an accurate hierarchy.

I get that some people here have been following Polish hockey for a long time, but let's be honest, it's a very niche area and unless you're Polish and constantly around and involved you can't know the full story or realities of the sport there especially with most of these people paying much more attention to stronger leagues around the world. I'm also not some blind fan with an illusion who thinks my nation and its league is the bees knees in terms of hockey, I know it's not even close to a top league in Europe, however I've also seen the rise in level of play in the last 5 years or so and the fact Poland is in the top WC division this year is a result of that and not some random coincidence as they could also be at Div. 1B level like they were in 2019.

 

[Namejs]

Yea, and nowhere was I saying that PHL is same level of play as Liiga, SHL or even Allsvenskan, I really don't know where you're coming up with these assertions.
Having said that, you're implying ECHL is same level as Liiga when it clearly is below Liiga, and maybe even lower than Allsvenskan and I know it's difficult comparing NA leagues to Euro leagues.

I am in no way implying ECHL is at the same level as Liiga. It's not.

Based on the bold part of your post you're contradicting yourself in a way. If we can all agree the NA tiers are NHL > AHL > ECHL, and top ECHL players could and do play for AHL teams, and ECHL is more or less equivalent to PHL, then why can't top PHL players play in AHL??? If anything in the last 10 years or so, ECHL and AHL have grown closer in level of play, where NHL is far far surpassing AHL level. I know it's a video game, but look at team and player ratings in NHL 24 and you can more or less come up with an accurate hierarchy.

I get that some people here have been following Polish hockey for a long time, but let's be honest, it's a very niche area and unless you're Polish and constantly around and involved you can't know the full story or realities of the sport there especially with most of these people paying much more attention to stronger leagues around the world. I'm also not some blind fan with an illusion who thinks my nation and its league is the bees knees in terms of hockey, I know it's not even close to a top league in Europe, however I've also seen the rise in level of play in the last 5 years or so and the fact Poland is in the top WC division this year is a result of that and not some random coincidence as they could also be at Div. 1B level like they were in 2019.

PHL is in no way equivalent to ECHL.

 

[legionista]

We're not discussing Trulja or Monta, we're discussing the level of play in PHL.

The foreign imports from Sweden and Finland were successful in Mestis and Hockeyettan and managed to get signed in Liiga and Allsvenskan where they failed to produce. And moved to Poland afterwards.

Hence in terms of point equivalency between the different leagues, Mestis and Hockeyettan are valid comparables to PHL. Not Liiga. Or Allsvenskan. Or ECHL.

Then what are you saying, because I think you're just spinning your wheels here.

If PHL is in no way equivalent to ECHL then to what? FHL? SPHL? So you're saying a national team full of FHL or SPHL level players made the top WC division this year??? You're funny bro.

 

[Namejs]

I think PHL is a bit better than Mestis and HockeyEttan but well below Allsvenskan and closer to the former two than the latter.

The thing about Poland though is that they perennially punch above their weight. The team outperforms the sum of its parts, I could see it coming down to Poland and Kazakhstan and Kazakhstan winning by only one or two goals.

I can't see how PHL is better than Mestis.

Almost every single Finnish player with both Mestis and PHL experience is being more productive in Poland than in Mestis.

What kind of an anomaly is that and how do you explain that?

 

[Namejs]

Then what are you saying, because I think you're just spinning your wheels here.

If PHL is in no way equivalent to ECHL then to what? FHL? SPHL? So you're saying a national team full of FHL or SPHL level players made the top WC division this year??? You're funny bro.

I didn't realize the only valid measuring stick in the world of hockey were American hockey leagues.

But that is exactly right. Latvian semi-pro league players have succesfully played in PHL. The Latvian league is not on par with SPHL. It's on par with NAHL.

As hard as it can be for you to grasp, these are the facts.

 

[legionista]

I didn't realize the only valid measuring stick in the world of hockey were American hockey leagues.

But that is exactly right. Latvian semi-pro league players have succesfully played in PHL. The Latvian league is not on par with SPHL. It's on par with NAHL.

As hard as it can be for you to grasp, these are the facts.

No it's not facts, that's clearly just your opinion.

You can compare NA leagues to Euro leagues in NHL 24 if you wish btw.

You're all over the place with your league rankings however, so it's really difficult to respond to what you're saying.

As far as Latvian players in the PHL, I don't know which ones you're referring to, currently there are only 4, and the top one of those 4 finished 49th in scoring in the PHL and he had MHL and KHL experience.

 

[legionista]

I think PHL is a bit better than Mestis and HockeyEttan but well below Allsvenskan and closer to the former two than the latter.

The thing about Poland though is that they perennially punch above their weight. The team outperforms the sum of its parts, I could see it coming down to Poland and Kazakhstan and Kazakhstan winning by only one or two goals.

Our best chance will be to take points off Kazakhstan and France, Slovakia and Latvia are rather out of our reach especially considering what Latvia did last year.

Vs Sweden, USA, Germany, forget it, we're getting shellacked.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Based on the bold part of your post you're contradicting yourself in a way. If we can all agree the NA tiers are NHL > AHL > ECHL, and top ECHL players could and do play for AHL teams, and ECHL is more or less equivalent to PHL, then why can't top PHL players play in AHL??? If anything in the last 10 years or so, ECHL and AHL have grown closer in level of play, where NHL is far far surpassing AHL level. I know it's a video game, but look at team and player ratings in NHL 24 and you can more or less come up with an accurate hierarchy.

That's why my biggest issue was with you using the word "easily", initially. Namejs covered it, "A lot of players 'could play' in the AHL and you are technically correct in that sense, but you could make the same argument about the NHL and a couple of thousand hockey players who have not stepped foot on NHL ice". And this is true, albeit he exaggerates with "thousands".

Realistically there are hundreds of players who could viably attempt to hang in in the NHL. Same way, dozens of PHL players could attempt to hang in in the AHL. Maybe one or two would. But could, in this case, means they would have a slim fighting chance but it sure as hell wouldn't be easy. When predicting their chances, in each and every case you would say it's unlikely they make it. Just like Moonta we talked about: not only could he have played in the Liiga, he did play there. But ultimately wasn't good enough and had to move. The same would happen to most of those guys, they would be a usable stopgap but if we are talking about making a career somewhere, they would most likely fail. So as much as they could play in the AHL, they also aren't AHL-level players.

Now, when he scored over PPG in the PHL, he will move again.

Regarding the ECHL vs. AHL thing, I don't know if they have "grown closer" because it's really by default. Since AHL has a veteran limit, there is a spillover of players every year who are clearly AHL-level but can't play there due to age restrictions. That's where ECHL and European leagues come in. ECHL and AHL aren't competing for players against each other.

Also, I didn't really want to go there because this discussion has enough people rocking the boat already so to speak but this is the list of NA imports in the Polish league:

Elite Prospects - Poland Stats 2023-2024

Out of 6 top players (by PPG), only one had an actual ECHL career. Others either failed in the ECHL or had to come to Europe straight out of college. And then we are pretending these guys are facing AHL-level competition in Poland? Come on.

 

[Namejs]

No it's not facts, that's clearly just your opinion.

You can compare NA leagues to Euro leagues in NHL 24 if you wish btw.

You're all over the place with your league rankings however, so it's really difficult to respond to what you're saying.

As far as Latvian players in the PHL, I don't know which ones you're referring to, currently there are only 4, and the top one of those 4 finished 49th in scoring in the PHL and he had MHL and KHL experience.

You're really barking up the wrong tree here, buddy.

I don't want to school you, but you're sort of forcing my hand here.

I've been compiling league point equivalencies for years. You will be hard pressed to find someone else on these boards more fixated on data-based cross-league comparisons. I don't have 'opinions', all I have is facts. And literally all of your statements about PHL are factually incorrect. There's nothing arguable about it too, there's no room for interpretation. PHL is barely a pro league.

24 Latvian players have played in PHL over the last 4 seasons.
22 of them have played at least 10 games both in Latvia and PHL:

Aleksandrs Jerofejevs

Arturs Sevcenko

Danila Larionovs

Deniss Fjodorovs

Edmunds Augstkalns

Eduards Hugo Jansons

Egils Kalns

Eriks Sevcenko

Frenks Razgals

Imants Lescovs

Janis Andersons

Kristaps Jakobsons

Kristers Bormanis

Lauris Rancevs

Magnuss Jakobsons

Maris Jass

Pauls Svars

Raivo Freidenfelds

Renars Karkls

Ricards Birzins

Vitalijs Pavlovs

Antons Sinegubovs

Ervins Mustukovs

Ricards Bernhards

Now look up their rates of point production in Latvia and in PHL. There's not much of a difference between the two leagues.

You'll also notice that many of them have played in Kazakhstan with similar rates of production.

Not much of a difference with NAHL either.

Surely, you were joking about NHL 24.

In case you got confused by all the different country names, I will translate it to American.

PHL bad, ECHL not bad. Latvia league bad, PHL bad. AHL good. Sweden good. Finland pretty good. Sweden 3 bad. Sweden 2 not bad.

 

[legionista]

That's why my biggest issue was with you using the word "easily", initially. Namejs covered it, "A lot of players 'could play' in the AHL and you are technically correct in that sense, but you could make the same argument about the NHL and a couple of thousand hockey players who have not stepped foot on NHL ice". And this is true, albeit he exaggerates with "thousands".

Realistically there are hundreds of players who could viably attempt to hang in in the NHL. Same way, dozens of PHL players could attempt to hang in in the AHL. Maybe one or two would. But could, in this case, means they would have a slim fighting chance but it sure as hell wouldn't be easy. When predicting their chances, in each and every case you would say it's unlikely they make it. Just like Moonta we talked about: not only could he have played in the Liiga, he did play there. But ultimately wasn't good enough and had to move. The same would happen to most of those guys, they would be a usable stopgap but if we are talking about making a career somewhere, they would most likely fail. So as much as they could play in the AHL, they also aren't AHL-level players.

Now, when he scored over PPG in the PHL, he will move again.

Regarding the ECHL vs. AHL thing, I don't know if they have "grown closer" because it's really by default. Since AHL has a veteran limit, there is a spillover of players every year who are clearly AHL-level but can't play there due to age restrictions. That's where ECHL and European leagues come in. ECHL and AHL aren't competing for players against each other.

Also, I didn't really want to go there because this discussion has enough people rocking the boat already so to speak but this is the list of NA imports in the Polish league:

Elite Prospects - Poland Stats 2023-2024

Out of 6 top players (by PPG), only one had an actual ECHL career. Others either failed in the ECHL or had to come to Europe straight out of college. And then we are pretending these guys are facing AHL-level competition in Poland? Come on.

Maybe we have a different definition of easily in terms of hockey and who could play where. So much depends on factors other than pure skill or talent if a player is to stay and make a career in a certain league. Knowing the realities and mentality of Polish players, they would rather make a career in Europe rather than ECHL or AHL, especially since the pay would be better for them in Europe including in the PHL. I have no doubt a guy like Lyszczarczyk, Pasiut, Wronka, or Chmielewski could make an AHL team and stay there, but what's the point if they'll be 3rd or 4th liners, get paid league minimum, and might be forced to turn into enforcers (which clearly most European players are not), then age out and go to ECHL or something. Like I mentioned before, Lyszczarczyk was on the cusp of doing this but decided to make the move to Europe from ECHL.

Regarding your last paragraph, nobody was equating level of PHL to AHL so not sure why you're bringing that up. The issue at hand is if any top players in the PHL could make an AHL squad, and the answer is yes, Nobody is saying they would be superstars and lead the league in points. Some are saying PHL would be equivalent to FHL or SPHL which is laughable as there have been Polish players in those leagues in the past and they were NEVER considered for the national team.

 

[legionista]

You're really barking up the wrong tree here, buddy.

I don't want to school you, but you're sort of forcing my hand here.

I've been compiling league point equivalencies for years. You will be hard pressed to find someone else on these boards more fixated on data-based cross-league comparisons. I don't have 'opinions', all I have is facts. And literally all of your statements about PHL are factually incorrect. There's nothing arguable about it too, there's no room for interpretation. PHL is barely a pro league.

24 Latvian players have played in PHL over the last 4 seasons.
22 of them have played at least 10 games both in Latvia and PHL:

Aleksandrs Jerofejevs

Arturs Sevcenko

Danila Larionovs

Deniss Fjodorovs

Edmunds Augstkalns

Eduards Hugo Jansons

Egils Kalns

Eriks Sevcenko

Frenks Razgals

Imants Lescovs

Janis Andersons

Kristaps Jakobsons

Kristers Bormanis

Lauris Rancevs

Magnuss Jakobsons

Maris Jass

Pauls Svars

Raivo Freidenfelds

Renars Karkls

Ricards Birzins

Vitalijs Pavlovs

Antons Sinegubovs

Ervins Mustukovs

Ricards Bernhards

Now look up their rates of point production in Latvia and in PHL. There's not much of a difference between the two leagues.

You'll also notice that many of them have played in Kazakhstan with similar rates of production.

Not much of a difference with NAHL either.

Surely, you were joking about NHL 24.

In case you got confused by all the different country names, I will translate it to American.

PHL bad, ECHL not bad. Latvia league bad, PHL bad. AHL good. Sweden good. Finland pretty good. Sweden 3 bad. Sweden 2 not bad.

Bro, nobody cares about your "interpretations" or "equivalences", it's cute and all but some of the players in your list are going back to the 90's, while others played only a few games in the PHL. We're in 2024 and talking about the state of the PHL NOW, not years ago when most of these players had a cup of coffee in the PHL.

Congrats, you know a lot about Latvian hockey, but I suggest you stay in your lane because you know very little to nothing about the current state of hockey in Poland.

I've backed up my statements about PHL and its players with current links and facts, you're merely "interpreting" just like your highly elaborate "bad" "not bad" "good" classification of leagues

 

[kudla]

Then what are you saying, because I think you're just spinning your wheels here.

If PHL is in no way equivalent to ECHL then to what? FHL? SPHL? So you're saying a national team full of FHL or SPHL level players made the top WC division this year??? You're funny bro.

ECHL in fact is a league roughly on the level of Slovakian league. I love this discussion though!

 

[SoundAndFury]

I have no doubt a guy like Lyszczarczyk, Pasiut, Wronka, or Chmielewski could make an AHL team and stay there

Sorry, but statements like this take the air out of the whole discussion. This is the player who provides absolutely nothing outside of his offense and whose career has indisputably shown he isn't able to score even at the level a tiny bit higher than the PHL due to his physical limitations. He was let go in Belfast and consistently healthy-scratched towards the end of the year in Znojmo. That's despite those teams having invested interest and really trying to make him work (especially in Znojmo's case) in the scoring role.

I have no doubt he wouldn't even be allowed to step on the AHL ice and if by some miracle it happened, he would be completely useless. For someone to make a statement like that he either has to be a massive homer or have absolutely no clue about the player he's talking about. Which, again, makes the discussion seem like either pure bias or pure guessing on your part.

It's good for you that your biggest opponent in this discussion is operating the same way, usually

 

[Namejs]

Bro, nobody cares about your "interpretations" or "equivalences", it's cute and all but some of the players in your list are going back to the 90's, while others played only a few games in the PHL. We're in 2024 and talking about the state of the PHL NOW, not years ago when most of these players had a cup of coffee in the PHL.

Congrats, you know a lot about Latvian hockey, but I suggest you stay in your lane because you know very little to nothing about the current state of hockey in Poland.

I've backed up my statements about PHL and its players with current links and facts, you're merely "interpreting" just like your highly elaborate "bad" "not bad" "good" classification of leagues

Going back to the 90s?

All of them played in Poland since 2020.

You clearly have zero idea about what you're talking about. I assume you're role-playing a Polish hockey expert. Or maybe you're role-playing being Polish too.

And it clearly is more important to you than being connected to what's called reality. Good luck with that.

 

[legionista]

Going back to the 90s?

All of them played in Poland since 2020.

You clearly have zero idea about what you're talking about. I assume you're role-playing a Polish hockey expert. Or maybe you're role-playing being Polish too.

And it clearly is more important to you than being connected to what's called reality. Good luck with that.

That's rich, coming from some clown who thinks a team full of FHL level players can play in the top WC division or didn't even know Monta came to PHL directly from Liiga, yea some expert you are .

Yea there are so many wannabe Polish people out there, it's a thing

Log off bud, you're embarrassing yourself with each post.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Yea there are so many wannabe Polish people out there, it's a thing

Sorry but from what you have written in this thread it does seem to be a bit of a thing. Especially after posts like these:

I mean you can think what you want buddy, but I've been involved and following the Polish league and national team for 30 years and I know what I'm talking about, I think you're maybe Lithuanian or Ukrainian and I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on those leagues.

I am Lithuanian and everyone on the International board knows it by now. And I don't need some official expert badge but we play Poland year after year after year. Many years multiple times. Not to mention U20s, U18s, U16s, etc. So naturally one develops an interest in hockey in that country, especially when the country is 100 km away.

And then, 12 years into being active on these boards, there comes some guy, virtually unseen talking about Poland-related topics until very recently, calling me buddy and thumping his chest about how much Pole and involved in everything for 30 years he is. While at the same time possessing knowledge that is dubious at best.

Sorry but I'm with Namejs on this one (and God knows we do not agree all that often), that just does not look serious. Frankly, what he said is a logical conclusion one comes to, he just said it out loud while I was more reserved.

In general, it's better to show that you know what you are talking about, rather than just proclaim it. But feels like later has happened but the former not so much.

 

[SoundAndFury]

I wrote down some points that seemed really interesting to me for a long time but I didn't think anyone was interested, seemed a bit of an "old man yelling at a cloud" energy. But using the current momentum and foot traffic in this thread maybe somebody will engage. So here it goes:

1) Polish hockey is getting the biggest publicity it has ever received, everyone claims PHL is on the rise and the current generation is given the optics of "best ever" but if we were to look objectively, Poland finished 3rd in D1A two years in a row, in 2015 and 2016, which is effectively same as finishing 1st in the current D1A, so actually a bigger achievement than the one last year, just without any of the fanfare.

Those teams had extremely skilled forwards (Laszkiewicz, Lopuski, Kolusz, Pasiut definitely could have had a career abroad if they put as much commitment and effort into it as Chmielewski, Wronka or Lyszczarczyk did), Adam Borzecki - someone who has actually played in both AHL and DEL - on defense, not one but two adequate to the international level Polish goalies.

While now, as someone aptly said, the team is greater than its parts. The idea of having any of the local goalies in the net is straight-up scary, defense is led by Kolusz and Dronia who were also on the team back then and nobody from the younger generation is even close to approaching their level. And the scoring was again, led by 35 y.o. Dziubinski and 36 y.o. Pasiut. To get the result team is relying on the players who fit the role perfectly rather than their overall talent (Jeziorski or Wronka were great examples of this last year).

So while I agree entirely that the PHL is getting stronger, I also question what benefit it is to Polish hockey overall. Junior teams continue to be a horror show and the level of talent produced or international results are no better than it was 10 years ago. I also encourage people somewhat interested in Polish hockey to look back and give more credit to guys like Adam Baginski, Krzysztof Zapala, Leszek Laszkiewicz who were absolute powerhouses on the Polish NT but are virtually unknown outside of Poland.

2) Sort of ties into the first part but during this discussion there seemed to be a consensus that Chmielewski is the best Polish player in recent memory. The justification for that is fairly obvious - the man has spent almost his entire career on the best team in Czechia. But at the same time, throughout his career he had a very specific role - the same one as Daniel Sprong currently has in the NHL or for those who followed the KHL, the same one Marek Kvapil had on the championship-winning Dynamo teams - play in the bottom-6 to limit the quality of your opposition and on the PP and score thanks to your offensive talent.

So how does it stand up to Grzegorz Pasiut's cerebral do-it-all 1C career? The man is 7 times Polish champion, 2 times Belarussian champion (that's 2 out of 2), 9 points in 11 games in the Champions League against some of the best competition in Europe. Made the Wronka-Pasiut-Fraszko line the best in the country even when one guy on it can't defend (or forecheck, or skate in general) to save his life and the other wouldn't get an invite to NT even after scoring over PPG.

The only thing he lacks is a more internationally acclaimed club career but his time in Belarus has clearly shown he could have been a solid top-6 center in Austrian EBEL, for example. He most likely didn't want to go to Czechia because so many Poles got burnt by it (or simply didn't want to play a limited role) and never got an offer from the Western league he would clearly be successful in. This isn't surprising at all, the best example is Igor Merezhko who had to spend 2 seasons clearly below his skill level just to build up his resume because nobody is interested in a player from the VHL, and it didn't matter that he played for the richest teams and won the VHL title and all that.

3) Going back to the Chmielewski topic, how much better or worse his legacy would be if he had chosen a career as a regular top-6 forward in Austria, for example, rather than this designated hitter role in Trinec?

4) What is wrong with Damian Tyczynski? I get some of it - soft, can't defend, came back to a bad team with limited supporting cast. But the man scored 0,6 PPG in the Slovak league and still got dropped like a hot potato and ultimately had to come back to a team fighting for the last PO ticket. What gives?

 

[legionista]

I wrote down some points that seemed really interesting to me for a long time but I didn't think anyone was interested, seemed a bit of an "old man yelling at a cloud" energy. But using the current momentum and foot traffic in this thread maybe somebody will engage. So here it goes:

1) Polish hockey is getting the biggest publicity it has ever received, everyone claims PHL is on the rise and the current generation is given the optics of "best ever" but if we were to look objectively, Poland finished 3rd in D1A two years in a row, in 2015 and 2016, which is effectively same as finishing 1st in the current D1A, so actually a bigger achievement than the one last year, just without any of the fanfare.

Those teams had extremely skilled forwards (Laszkiewicz, Lopuski, Kolusz, Pasiut definitely could have had a career abroad if they put as much commitment and effort into it as Chmielewski, Wronka or Lyszczarczyk did), Adam Borzecki - someone who has actually played in both AHL and DEL - on defense, not one but two adequate to the international level Polish goalies.

While now, as someone aptly said, the team is greater than its parts. The idea of having any of the local goalies in the net is straight-up scary, defense is led by Kolusz and Dronia who were also on the team back then and nobody from the younger generation is even close to approaching their level. And the scoring was again, led by 35 y.o. Dziubinski and 36 y.o. Pasiut. To get the result team is relying on the players who fit the role perfectly rather than their overall talent (Jeziorski or Wronka were great examples of this last year).

So while I agree entirely that the PHL is getting stronger, I also question what benefit it is to Polish hockey overall. Junior teams continue to be a horror show and the level of talent produced or international results are no better than it was 10 years ago. I also encourage people somewhat interested in Polish hockey to look back and give more credit to guys like Adam Baginski, Krzysztof Zapala, Leszek Laszkiewicz who were absolute powerhouses on the Polish NT but are virtually unknown outside of Poland.

2) Sort of ties into the first part but during this discussion there seemed to be a consensus that Chmielewski is the best Polish player in recent memory. The justification for that is fairly obvious - the man has spent almost his entire career on the best team in Czechia. But at the same time, throughout his career he had a very specific role - the same one as Daniel Sprong currently has in the NHL or for those who followed the KHL, the same one Marek Kvapil had on the championship-winning Dynamo teams - play in the bottom-6 to limit the quality of your opposition and on the PP and score thanks to your offensive talent.

So how does it stand up to Grzegorz Pasiut's cerebral do-it-all 1C career? The man is 7 times Polish champion, 2 times Belarussian champion (that's 2 out of 2), 9 points in 11 games in the Champions League against some of the best competition in Europe. Made the Wronka-Pasiut-Fraszko line the best in the country even when one guy on it can't defend (or forecheck, or skate in general) to save his life and the other wouldn't get an invite to NT even after scoring over PPG.

The only thing he lacks is a more internationally acclaimed club career but his time in Belarus has clearly shown he could have been a solid top-6 center in Austrian EBEL, for example. He most likely didn't want to go to Czechia because so many Poles got burnt by it (or simply didn't want to play a limited role) and never got an offer from the Western league he would clearly be successful in. This isn't surprising at all, the best example is Igor Merezhko who had to spend 2 seasons clearly below his skill level just to build up his resume because nobody is interested in a player from the VHL, and it didn't matter that he played for the richest teams and won the VHL title and all that.

3) Going back to the Chmielewski topic, how much better or worse his legacy would be if he had chosen a career as a regular top-6 forward in Austria, for example, rather than this designated hitter role in Trinec?

4) What is wrong with Damian Tyczynski? I get some of it - soft, can't defend, came back to a bad team with limited supporting cast. But the man scored 0,6 PPG in the Slovak league and still got dropped like a hot potato and ultimately had to come back to a team fighting for the last PO ticket. What gives?

You pretty much answered your own question with the boldened text above about all the players you mentioned, at least the ones from that generation, the younger ones tend to be a little more ambitious and venture outside of Poland.

Right around 2019 - 2021 the PHL started to get more sponsors, TV rights, which means more money and many of those players you listed who maybe considered going abroad to play decided to play in PHL. Then the league opened up to more imports, it was a hotly debated topic if that would actually help hockey in Poland or hurt it, and ultimately they decided to do it. It resulted in some of those Polish players taking a back seat to higher level imports, unfortunately most of the young ones are the ones who suffered hence why many chose to play U18 or U20 hockey in Czechia or Slovakia instead.

The whole Chmielewski situation is a promotional or publicity tactic to get Polish hockey fans which are mostly in the south of Poland to get engaged in HC Ocelari Trinec games, who's stadium is about 3km from the Czech - Polish border, and it worked, there is a HC Ocelari Polish fan club with members traveling to games regularly. Same went for Komorski, Lyszczarczyk, and now Walega who got got loaned out to a Div. 2 team.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Do they even have one NHLer? Is Wojtek Wolski still around?

I forgot to mention the great Mike Danton, who played 6 games for the polish NT.