Players that should have Won the Conn Smythe?

LightningStorm

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Was Giguere really so much more of an outlier than Hasek? There are more than a few people who strongly disagree with Giguere being chosen. I'm not one of them, but I do think it shows that he wasn't the only obvious candidate. And honestly, except for the fact that the Sabres didn't push the Finals to seven games, I find what Hasek did, dragging that team along with him more remarkable. I take no issue with Nieuwendyk as the Conn Smythe winner, but I can't dismiss Hasek as a legitimate candidate either. His team wouldn't have been within miles of the Finals without him.
To answer your first question, yes. Going into the finals, Giguere had a stateline of 12-2, 1.22 GAA, .96 SV%, and 4 SO. Upset 2/3 of the West's Big 3 at the time in Detroit and Dallas the first 2 rounds, then held Minnesota to a single goal in their 4 game sweep. Hasek was great in 1999, but not quite on 2003 Giguere's level, and didn't face as tough of competition. The West was much tougher these days, especially when the Devils stumbled early in the playoffs, which was the case in 1999.

I also think Nieuwendyk and Belfour were better than any candidate on the 2003 Devils (Niedermayer was who I thought their best player that postseason was).

As for the people who disagree with Giguere, there's definitely some fans who think the CS should exclusively be for the postseason MVP of the winning team.
 

Michael Farkas

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I disagree with Giguere and don't hold that exclusivity principle.

Usually, the later rounds are weighted more heavily. He got a lot of stat line miles playing the expansion Wild in the WCF. A mirror image of the Ducks. I mean, Manny Fernandez had 1.37 GAA and .943 and didn't win a game. Then Giguere gave up 20 goals in the Final to a very average Devils offense.

Even if you can look the other way on his unsportsmanlike equipment (I do not), he had a walk in the park in the WCF and then gave up a bunch of goals in the Final and lost to a guy that had 7 shutouts in one postseason...
 
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Professor What

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To answer your first question, yes. Going into the finals, Giguere had a stateline of 12-2, 1.22 GAA, .96 SV%, and 4 SO. Upset 2/3 of the West's Big 3 at the time in Detroit and Dallas the first 2 rounds, then held Minnesota to a single goal in their 4 game sweep. Hasek was great in 1999, but not quite on 2003 Giguere's level, and didn't face as tough of competition. The West was much tougher these days, especially when the Devils stumbled early in the playoffs, which was the case in 1999.

I also think Nieuwendyk and Belfour were better than any candidate on the 2003 Devils (Niedermayer was who I thought their best player that postseason was).

As for the people who disagree with Giguere, there's definitely some fans who think the CS should exclusively be for the postseason MVP of the winning team.

And Giguere's numbers for the entire playoffs, which is what the Conn Smythe is based on don't really stand out from Broduer's. You don't have to believe that only a winning player should win the Conn Smythe to think that Brodeur should have won it. Because of what Giguere meant to his team, I have no problem with the selection, but it was far from a no-brainer. The two instances really are pretty comparable. We can agree to disagree, but I can't accept that Giguere's case was significantly better than Hasek's.
 

LightningStorm

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And Giguere's numbers for the entire playoffs, which is what the Conn Smythe is based on don't really stand out from Broduer's. You don't have to believe that only a winning player should win the Conn Smythe to think that Brodeur should have won it. Because of what Giguere meant to his team, I have no problem with the selection, but it was far from a no-brainer. The two instances really are pretty comparable. We can agree to disagree, but I can't accept that Giguere's case was significantly better than Hasek's.
Sure the raw stats for Giguere and Brodeur look similar, but Giguere didn't have that elite trapping Devils D playing in front of him. For example, when the Ducks didn't score a goal the first 2 games of the finals, they were held to 16 shots each game. Sure Brodeur was important, but it was more their defense. Giguere carried a much heavier load than Brodeur that postseason. Plus I thought the 2003 Ducks faced superior competition compared to the 1999 Sabres.

The other side of the coin, as mentioned, is Nieuwendyk and Belfour had better postseasons than anyone on the 2003 Devils.
 

JackSlater

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Was Giguere really so much more of an outlier than Hasek? There are more than a few people who strongly disagree with Giguere being chosen. I'm not one of them, but I do think it shows that he wasn't the only obvious candidate. And honestly, except for the fact that the Sabres didn't push the Finals to seven games, I find what Hasek did, dragging that team along with him more remarkable. I take no issue with Nieuwendyk as the Conn Smythe winner, but I can't dismiss Hasek as a legitimate candidate either. His team wouldn't have been within miles of the Finals without him.

People describe the 1999 Sabres that way but it isn't true. Buffalo was a good defensive team that lacked firepower. Yet, in the 1999 playoffs Buffalo's offence played above its head for three rounds. Buffalo averaged 3.33 goals per game in the first three rounds, well above league average, and never scored fewer than two goals in regulation until the Stanley Cup finals. That's great support for a goaltender, giving him a chance every game. Hasek is the best goaltender ever but Buffalo only needed a good performance from its goaltender to reach the finals in 1999, it wasn't the carry job that people often make it out to be based on Buffalo's roster.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Usually, the later rounds are weighted more heavily.

i think that maxim doesn’t apply to extreme underdogs. giguere is a perfect illustration of this: his third round was far easier than his rounds one and two, when he stared down the numbers two and three teams in the league, backstopping a number seven seed in his conference. even in the finals, he took the number four team in the league to seven, and it took three shutouts by a top six goalie all time to beat him. those three teams he faced combined for six of the previous eight cups, five of the previous six. and obvioysly one of them added another cup that year.

the only other time i saw a dragonslaying first two rounds like that was when jon casey shut down the presidents trophy winning hawks, followed by the number two blues. that was also the vezina winner, and numbers two and three scorers in the league, one of them in a historic goal scoring season. also two of the three hart finalists, including the mvp. casey of course then knocked off the defending champs in round three.

i don’t know that knocking off the ’99 sens, bruins, and leafs was a comparable feat.
 
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LightningStorm

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i think that maxim doesn’t apply to extreme underdogs. giguere is a perfect illustration of this: his third round was far easier than his rounds one and two, when he stared down the numbers two and three teams in the league, backstopping a number seven seed in his conference. even in the finals, he took the number four team in the league to seven, and it took three shutouts by a top six goalie all time to beat him. those three teams he faced combined for six of the previous eight cups, five of the previous six. and obvioysly one of them added another cup that year.

the only other time i saw a dragonslaying first two rounds like that was when jon casey shut down the presidents trophy winning hawks, followed by the number two blues. that was also the vezina winner, and numbers two and three scorers in the league, one of them in a historic goal scoring season. also two of the three hart finalists, including the mvp. casey of course then knocked off the defending champs in round three.

i don’t know that knocking off the ’99 sens, bruins, and leafs was a comparable feat.
Bolded is exactly what I've been trying to get at in terms of 99 Hasek vs 03 Giguere. You can essentially call it a wash in terms of the team who beat them in the finals, but for who they beat to get there, Giguere easily had the tougher road.
 

The Panther

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People describe the 1999 Sabres that way but it isn't true. Buffalo was a good defensive team that lacked firepower. Yet, in the 1999 playoffs Buffalo's offence played above its head for three rounds. Buffalo averaged 3.33 goals per game in the first three rounds, well above league average, and never scored fewer than two goals in regulation until the Stanley Cup finals. That's great support for a goaltender, giving him a chance every game. Hasek is the best goaltender ever but Buffalo only needed a good performance from its goaltender to reach the finals in 1999, it wasn't the carry job that people often make it out to be based on Buffalo's roster.
I can't really agree with this.

Hasek posted a .963 in round one vs. Ottawa, and three of the four games were one-goal games (one needed overtime). Put a regular goalie's .918 or whatever in there, and maybe the series is 2-2 after four games, or maybe Ottawa is up 3-1.

Hasek's save percentage is more 'average' (.918) in round two vs. Boston, but he still bested Dafoe's .904. In the four games that Buffalo won, Hasek was .966, .905, 1.000, and .920. As soon as his save percentage dipped into average (.905) or sub-par level (games 1 and 5 he was below .900), the Sabres were 1-2, but they were 3-0 when he was "on". since Boston's goaltending (by save percentage -- I didn't watch the games) was just so-so in this particular series, it's possible that a lesser goalie would have won the series for Buffalo. But with the Sabres scoring only 15 (non empty-net) goals across six games (2.5 per game), it's also possible that a lesser goalie wouldn't have gotten it done!

Only in the Toronto series did Buffalo's offence come to life, with 19 goals in five games (3.8 per game). Hasek's .926 is rather great considering the Leafs were the #1 offensive club that season. Also, when Roloson came in (he played 40% of the series), he posted an ugly .847. And Roloson was a very good goalie.

Then, vs. Dallas, Buffalo scored a measly 8 goals in the first five games. The series probably should have been over in Dallas's favor at that point, or, at best, maybe 3-1 Stars. But the Stars had also beaten Hasek only 8 times in those first four games (plus overtime in game one). Hasek's .939 in the Finals, facing Modano, Nieuwendyk, Hull, and Zubov impresses me more than Belfour's (equally outstanding) .941, facing Brown, Ward, Woolley, and Zhitnik.
 
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VanIslander

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Hasek destroyed those playoffs.
And even though he only dragged his team to OT of Game 6 of the friggin' Stsnley Cup playoffs, no one was more deserving of the Conn Smythe trophy. There was no MVP in sight than him. We all knew it.
 

The Panther

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Nothing against Nieuwendyk's Smythe in 1999 because he was clutch and really put the Stars over the top (well, him and a foot in the crease), but I almost feel like Hasek's non-win was voter fatigue after he'd achieved too much in too short a time.

He'd just come off his SIXTH year in a row leading the League in save percentage, was about to win his third Vezina in a row (fifth in six years), has won the previous two Hart trophies (he'd fall to third in '99 voting, but I guess nobody knew that yet), and had led Czech Republic to the Gold medal (over Canada / US) 17 months earlier. I think voters were kind of, like, "yeah, of course he's the best, but we're looking for any excuse to give it to somebody on the winning team... so... Nieuwendyk!"
 
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VanIslander

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... I almost feel like Hasek's non-win was voter fatigue after he'd achieved too much in too short a time.

He'd just come off his SIXTH year in a row leading the League in save percentage, was about to win his third Vezina in a row (fifth in six years), has won the previous two Hart trophies (he'd fall to third in '99 voting, but I guess nobody knew that yet), and had led Czech Republic to the Gold medal (over Canada / US) 17 months earlier.
Exactly. I am Canadian and what Hasek did to us (and what Crawford refused to let Gretzky try), stuck until '02. Thanks to Sakic & Iggy.
 

JackSlater

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I can't really agree with this.

Hasek posted a .963 in round one vs. Ottawa, and three of the four games were one-goal games (one needed overtime). Put a regular goalie's .918 or whatever in there, and maybe the series is 2-2 after four games, or maybe Ottawa is up 3-1.

Hasek's save percentage is more 'average' (.918) in round two vs. Boston, but he still bested Dafoe's .904. In the four games that Buffalo won, Hasek was .966, .905, 1.000, and .920. As soon as his save percentage dipped into average (.905) or sub-par level (games 1 and 5 he was below .900), the Sabres were 1-2, but they were 3-0 when he was "on". since Boston's goaltending (by save percentage -- I didn't watch the games) was just so-so in this particular series, it's possible that a lesser goalie would have won the series for Buffalo. But with the Sabres scoring only 15 (non empty-net) goals across six games (2.5 per game), it's also possible that a lesser goalie wouldn't have gotten it done!

Only in the Toronto series did Buffalo's offence come to life, with 19 goals in five games (3.8 per game). Hasek's .926 is rather great considering the Leafs were the #1 offensive club that season. Also, when Roloson came in (he played 40% of the series), he posted an ugly .847. And Roloson was a very good goalie.

Then, vs. Dallas, Buffalo scored a measly 8 goals in the first five games. The series probably should have been over in Dallas's favor at that point, or, at best, maybe 3-1 Stars. But the Stars had also beaten Hasek only 8 times in those first four games (plus overtime in game one). Hasek's .939 in the Finals, facing Modano, Nieuwendyk, Hull, and Zubov impresses me more than Belfour's (equally outstanding) .941, facing Brown, Ward, Woolley, and Zhitnik.
The Ottawa series is the only one where I'd say that Buffalo might have needed excellent goaltending, and even then it was still a sweep. Through three rounds Buffalo was the highest scoring team on a per game level in the playoffs. The same Buffalo that played a defensive style built around Hasek. The first three rounds saw teams scoring an average of 2.61 goals per game, which Buffalo bettered in each series and which Buffalo nearly scored in each game, as the team never scored fewer than 2 goals in regulation. By playing a defensive style and always scoring at least two goals in regulation through three rounds, Buffalo gave its goaltender a chance every single game. Buffalo even scored early most games, setting up a situation where the team could continue playing its comfortable style (allow shots and clear the rebounds) with some regularity.

Hasek was great but he did not carry a team playing poorly to the finals and it is by no means a case of Buffalo "not being within miles of the finals without him." Switch Hasek and Belfour and those playoffs play out the same way. Give Buffalo good goaltending and its playoff leading offence, timely goals, and strong defensive play have a good chance to lead it to the finals anyway. No goaltender would have changed the results of the finals and I certainly wouldn't blame Hasek for Buffalo's fate.
 

Hockey Outsider

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People describe the 1999 Sabres that way but it isn't true. Buffalo was a good defensive team that lacked firepower. Yet, in the 1999 playoffs Buffalo's offence played above its head for three rounds. Buffalo averaged 3.33 goals per game in the first three rounds, well above league average, and never scored fewer than two goals in regulation until the Stanley Cup finals. That's great support for a goaltender, giving him a chance every game. Hasek is the best goaltender ever but Buffalo only needed a good performance from its goaltender to reach the finals in 1999, it wasn't the carry job that people often make it out to be based on Buffalo's roster.
Agreed. Lots of people on HFBoards think that Hasek singlehandedly carried the Sabres to the Stanley Cup finals in 1999, but that wasn't the case. I agree their roster, on paper, was weak, but you need to look at how the team performed in the playoffs. Heading into the Stanley Cup finals, the Sabres had scored 3.33 goals per game. Believe it or not, that was highest in the league (ahead of the Red Wings, Stars and Avalanche, who were all in the range of 2.95 - 3.10 goals per game). And defensively, the Sabres were allowing about 1.6 more shots per game than the average team (which isn't nothing, but it's not like Hasek was being constantly bombarded). Hasek, of course, was playing really well - but the Sabres were good enough that he didn't need to constantly steal games for them.

Giguere in 2003 is a different story. I think that's as close as I've ever seen to one player singlehandedly dragging his team to the Cup finals. After the conference finals, the Ducks had scored 2.36 goals per game (ranking them 7th out of the eight teams that made it past the first round). And the Ducks allowed nearly 36 shots per game (the worst out of any team that made it out of the first round). Giguere helped his team achieve a better record, with way less goal support, and while facing more shots against (nor did he miss two games like Hasek did).

Not that this is definitive, but another point to consider - the Sabres only played a single overtime game through three rounds (Buffalo beat Ottawa 3-2 in double OT, with Hasek stopping 15 shots in an extra 31 minutes of hockey). The Ducks played five OT games. If I've calculated this correctly, Giguere played about 161 minutes of OT, and stopped all 91 shots he faced. I'm not blaming Hasek for not playing more in OT (which is largely beyond his control), but it shows how much narrower Giguere's margin for error was.

We can also consider the "three stars" selections. Not that these are scientific, but just to capture how they were perceived at the time. In Anaheim's 14 games before the SCF, Giguere was named the first star in 9(!) games, and was one of the three stars in 11 of 14 games. In Buffalo's 15 games before the SCF, Hasek was named the first star in 3 games, and was one of the three stars in 6 of 13 games (he missed two games, so the team played 15 games in total). Like I said, I realize "three stars" selections aren't exactly scientific, and maybe there are different biases in different cities, but this all seems consistent with the team-level data presented above.

Also - it's easy to look at Giguere's 96.0% save percentage through three rounds and think it's similar to Hasek's 93.8%. It really isn't. Hasek's "goal allowance rate" (1 - save percentage) was almost 65% higher than Giguere's. Hasek, of course, was much stronger in the Stanley Cup finals, and I wouldn't object to someone ranking Hasek ahead looking at all four rounds. But there was a meaningful difference Hasek's 1999 run and Giguere's 2003 run, at least through three rounds, when looking both at their level of performance, and their importance to the team.
 

VanIslander

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B.S. to the moon.

Buffalo played an aggressive 2-man forecheck that created a ton of odd-man against rushes, which Hasek welcomed: just take out the shooter or take out the pass, then gtfootw he said, let him go 1 on 1 against someone (cuz Hasek wins those battles all day long). Buffalo's defense was... not playing defense... it was attack and hit... Zhitnik was the #1 dman lol...
... i was no Buffalo fan but man did i enjoy watching Hasek.

This dispells the nonsense:


That was before... before ... his 5 Hart trophy finalist seasons, only some of which he won.

So many odd-man against rushes; Hasek wins 1 on 1, classic example is 7 straight saves against Mario Lemieux.

The great Tretiak coached Belfour in Chicago and not Hasek because "he doesn't do anything i teach" ... lol... except win... Hasek has the best save percentage in NHL history despite playing 16 friggin' seasons and breaking every rule about how the position should be played.

If there is a middle finger on a poster of NHL greats, Hasek is THERE!

There is no universe except this one where Hasek doesn't win a Conn Smythe.

Did you watch all 70 saves? Notice how they were out-manned rushes (odd-man rushes against because of a 2-man forecheck that at times doesn't result in puck recovery). Hasek, if Canadian like me, would be revered like Gretzky. (I can say that cuz i know us Canadians hold hockey in higher regard than the gov't or any loyalty to it or the flag: gtfooh).
 
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wetcoast

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Nothing against Nieuwendyk's Smythe in 1999 because he was clutch and really put the Stars over the top (well, him and a foot in the crease), but I almost feel like Hasek's non-win was voter fatigue after he'd achieved too much in too short a time.

He'd just come off his SIXTH year in a row leading the League in save percentage, was about to win his third Vezina in a row (fifth in six years), has won the previous two Hart trophies (he'd fall to third in '99 voting, but I guess nobody knew that yet), and had led Czech Republic to the Gold medal (over Canada / US) 17 months earlier. I think voters were kind of, like, "yeah, of course he's the best, but we're looking for any excuse to give it to somebody on the winning team... so... Nieuwendyk!"

Zubov might have been the better Dallas Stars player that year and I'm frankly surprised Mike Modano, the face of the franchise didn't win it.
 

Michael Farkas

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I'm not sure about using the 1994 Sabres to justify claims about the 1999 Sabres (five years, two coaches later) style of play...there are a number of full games available from that season anyhow...we don't have to guess...
 
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JackSlater

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B.S. to the moon.

Buffalo played an aggressive 2-man forecheck that created a ton of odd-man against rushes, which Hasek welcomed: just take out the shooter or take out the pass, then gtfootw he said, let him go 1 on 1 against someone (cuz Hasek wins those battles all day long). Buffalo's defense was... not playing defense... it was attack and hit... Zhitnik was the #1 dman lol...
... i was no Buffalo fan but man did i enjoy watching Hasek.

This dispells the nonsense:


That was before... before ... his 5 Hart trophy finalist seasons, only some of which he won.

So many odd-man against rushes; Hasek wins 1 on 1, classic example is 7 straight saves against Mario Lemieux.

The great Tretiak coached Belfour in Chicago and not Hasek because "he doesn't do anything i teach" ... lol... except win... Hasek has the best save percentage in NHL history despite playing 16 friggin' seasons and breaking every rule about how the position should be played.

If there is a middle finger on a poster of NHL greats, Hasek is THERE!

There is no universe except this one where Hasek doesn't win a Conn Smythe.

Did you watch all 70 saves? Notice how they were out-manned rushes (odd-man rushes against because of a 2-man forecheck that at times doesn't result in puck recovery). Hasek, if Canadian like me, would be revered like Gretzky. (I can say that cuz i know us Canadians hold hockey in higher regard than the gov't or any loyalty to it or the flag: gtfooh).


Ignoring the repetitive rambles about Hasek being good and what if Hasek were Canadian... what is the point of a video from 1994? Hasek was capable of playing well? I think most are already pretty familiar with that idea.
 
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Jim MacDonald

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Even if you can look the other way on his unsportsmanlike equipment (I do not),
Hi Mike, do you happen to know (as an aside to this thread) did Giguere take advantage of any "loopholes" in the rules as far as goalie equipment is concerned (at least in that 02-03 season)? I'm just wondering was he "smart" as oppose to other goalies in doing "loophole research," etc?
 

Michael Farkas

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I remember he had some weird knot loop that allowed his shoulder pads to go up to his ear line when he dropped into the butterfly or something along those lines...

A number of teams filed complaints about pad size during that time, but NHL rules didn't permit a team - AIUI - to submit a complaint about an individual player. But the league had asked Giguere repeatedly about various issues with his equipment size.

I mean, this just isn't even close to what humans look like...
BIXUtFCFXloKGQt-800x450-noPad.jpg


Especially if you saw Giguere off the ice...he wasn't exactly a big, wide guy...he was a regular guy, he looks like a guy that makes coffee at a boutique coffee shop...

And when you're that reliant on your equipment to make saves, you give up goals like this...listen to former goalie John Davidson rip Giguere for simply not moving...that's the "this is my last shot of warmup, I don't care" motion...except this is the Stanley Cup Final...

 

vadim sharifijanov

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who was the guy in the marshmallow man era who had a trap door come down between his legs and block the five hole when he went down?
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Wasn't it Tony Esposito? He had some fabric sewn in between his legs.

wow, tony o was an early adopter

no there was a guy who had a thing built into his equipment where when he went down it would come down from behind and cover his five hole. i want to say byron dafoe but google isn't turning up anything with him.
 

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