Players and their wives!

[David]

I dont feel sad for EDM fans. Chris Pronger is not their chattel, he wasnt born to serve as their personal gladiator, no matter how much money he makes, he doesnt belong to EDM fans.

If you are a man, when you sign a contract, then you honour it...otherwise, you're no better than Alexei Yashin...who last time I checked, wasn't convinced was a man.

 

[CanadianPantherFan]

too bad most of us won't but we'll still have to live with people on hf boards teasing us with their nudge nudge, if only you know what I know stuff.

People should be able to say whatever they want,free country.I dislike the Oilers but there fans should be able to say anything when it comes to the Pronger situation now.He says he will speak and tell everyone what transpired,did he

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

If you are a man, when you sign a contract, then you honour it...otherwise, you're no better than Alexei Yashin...who last time I checked, wasn't convinced was a man.

who said otherwise?

the team can decide at any time to trade him and therefore back out of the contract they entered into as well.

no one said Pronger was within his rights to not show up for camp and play for the Oilers. Simply saying he has done nothing immoaral or dishonourable by asking for a trade.

 

[kdb209]

the team can decide at any time to trade him and therefore back out of the contract they entered into as well.

Uhm - no.

Trading a player is not backing out of a contract, in any size, shape or form. The player signed a contract saying he will get paid X dollars over Y years for playing hockey. If he gets traded, guess what - he still gets the X dollars over Y years. The right for a team to trade the player is right there in the Standard Players Contract the player signed (unless he was UFA eligible and got a No Trade Clause). Players know that trades are a fact of life they have to live with to play in the NHL.

 

[GSC2k2*]

I don't know if you're married or not - either way, it doesn't matter. Take a job that requires you to move 1200 miles away and forces the rest of your family to make a decision: stay or go?

I have been married. As far as the decision goes, you seem to pretend like there is a fresh decision to make. Here is the fact - the decision was made a year ago by the Prongers, when Chris Pronger signed his deal. As of right now, there was no "decision" to make.

This situation is not unique to hockey players either. In my field and many others, people decide to move thousands of miles to take an assignment. A project manager takes on a project in the middle east to build a power plant, for example. That is a two to three year commitment. It is identical to the situation in which athletes find themselves.

Kids have a *very* difficult time adjusting to having to go from two parents around to just one, whatever the reason is.

If I had to guess, I would say that you do not have children. If you did, you would know that kids are VERY resilient. They can adjust to just about every type of scenario. Hundreds of thousands of kids are doing so in this country, and millions in the US.

It's incredibly difficult and stressful on them to have a parent drop in every so often and then be gone 2 days later - each party gets into a routine that's different from the other, and when the two get together toes get stepped on, feelings get hurt, and tempers flare ... and it makes it that much harder on the kids to adjust and cope.

Drop in and be gone two days later? You mean like the schedule of a professional athlete?

If the rest of the family goes, they pick up and leave everything that is familiar. The kids have relationships with friends, family, ... and it's all torn apart so that the parents and kids can be together. Then it's a matter of adjusting to the new area, which isn't like where they were. Different culture, different ideas, different values ... and if it's too great a clash, then there's problems getting adjusted and that can be just as stressful as anything else. Kids want to go back home, parents struggle to get the kids to buy in to staying, ...and again - it's difficult for the kids to adjust and cope.

Sorry, but (a) you are living in a fantasy land (different "culture"? different values??? ), and (b) most importantly, Pronger was trying to MOVE his family, not keep them in the same place. Pronger wants to uproot his family FROM Edmonton to ANOTHER place.

For your comment about "if they simply don't like the city", see my above paragraph. Given the choice between being where I am and having the rest of my family be miserable and suffer every day, I'd move them away to make things better in a heartbeat. I can always find another job in my field; I can't find another family to replace the one I have.

Suffer? Be miserable? Do you think they were living in a gulag? Or living in a van down by the river (apologies to Chris Farley)? If you had kids, you would know that any responsible parent would certainly not move his family simply because little Johnny wants to surf all year round or his wife would like to shop in better stores - especially when the family made the decision less than a year ago to live in Edmonton.

It's "love, honor, and cherish". There is no "obey" in the vows, regardless of what Bill Cosby says in his skit on marriage. Marriage is a two-way street, there's give and take on both sides. It is something no one here will ever understand unless they're faced with a choice of "stay here and lose the one you truly love" or "go and keep the one you love".

Actually, vows vary. "Obey" used to be in the vows, and it probably still is in some religions. Either way, I noted the variance and pointed out that it is really a mutual thing anyway.

Perhaps you believe the moral thing is for both of them to shut up. I have this idea that a person's happiness should never come at the expense of someone else's ... but that's why people have different morals. That's also why it's dangerous to try and impose your morals on someone else, as history has shown time and time and time again.

Interesting ... at the same time as you are suggesting that one should not impose one's morals on others, you are making a not-so-veiled suggestion that your morals are superior to my own.

Secondly, at the risk of offending the youngsters in la-la land who have posted here, it is not always about "happiness". Life is also about adhering to one's commitments, even if they don't make you (or your family) "happy". Of course, it appeared that the opportunity to guarantee themselves $31.25 million made the Prongers "happy" in 2005. Certainly, if I were Anaheim, I would be quite concerned what will make the Prongers "happy" in 2007.

I suggest the "ignore user" feature may be of *very* practical use at this point.

You are quite full of helpful suggestions. Do please keep them coming.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If that was supposed to be sarcastic, I would suggest not pushing it.

 

[serum114]

Something I feel is lacking from this discussion that I think needs to be added:

Pronger didn't simply ask Kevin Lowe for a trade, he leaked to the media through his agent that he wanted out. That is where my respect was lost.

If he said to Kevin Lowe in private he needed to be moved and Lowe could get it done that way then yes, it's within his rights. By going to the media and forcing Lowe's hand and lowering his own value by making it clear he had to be dealt shows how classy he is and how much respect he should be afforded.

I rarely hope bad things happen to people, but I hope the rest of Pronger's career is a bitter disappointment for him. He deserves it.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

http://hfboards.com/faq.php?

12) Libel: Any posts libeling players, prospects, or hockey personnel. It's not acceptable to post that you heard Player X has a drinking/drug/sex/personal problem from a "good" source. A link to a credible media source must be posted to support such claims. Other forums and personal websites are not credible.

Apparently some people think it's OK to keep repeating rumors about why Pronger chose to leave Edmonton. It is *NOT* acceptable here. It's been warned for multiple times now in multiple places, and anyone else who brings it up will be warned as well.

Knock it off.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Uhm - no.

Trading a player is not backing out of a contract, in any size, shape or form. The player signed a contract saying he will get paid X dollars over Y years for playing hockey. If he gets traded, guess what - he still gets the X dollars over Y years. The right for a team to trade the player is right there in the Standard Players Contract the player signed (unless he was UFA eligible and got a No Trade Clause). Players know that trades are a fact of life they have to live with to play in the NHL.

ya so ... and why cant the player ask for a trade? thats all i am saying, asking for a trade is not renegging on a contract.

trades are part of the game, as you say. why is it only ok for the team to initiate a trade.

if the team doesnt trade him, i am not advocating he sits out. i am merely saying he has not broken any contract by asking for a trade.

 

[Timmy]

ya so ... and why cant the player ask for a trade? thats all i am saying, asking for a trade is not renegging on a contract.

trades are part of the game, as you say. why is it only ok for the team to initiate a trade.

if the team doesnt trade him, i am not advocating he sits out. i am merely saying he has not broken any contract by asking for a trade.

It's part of the collectively bargained agreement signed off on by both the players and the owners.

Your contract can be traded unless, as a UFA, you negotiate a NTC or NMC clause.

As an employee in a collectively-bargained environment, the club within the league you choose to play in has the right to move you to a different club.

As an employee who has voluntarily entered into an agreement (by being part of the CBA), and a contract (with the club), you do not have the same rights.

If the players felt that they should have had the right to demand, and receive, trades by the clubs they signed contracts with, they should have insisted that this be part of the collective bargaining agreement.

 

[Vomiting Kermit*]

I think I speak for the majority of Oiler fans when I say we realize we don't own Pronger. But the way he and his wife handled this situation is ridiculous.

Pronger willingly signed a five-year, $31.25 million offer from the Edmonton Oilers last summer; it's not like he was already under a long-term contract with St. Louis when he was traded.

Lowe had known of Pronger wanting a move since before the Olympic break (apparently), but the two sides hoped that whatever the problem was would go away over the course of the season. When Pronger had the chance to privately tell Lowe in person after the playoffs that he wanted out for sure, he didn't. Two days later, a trade request was leaked through the media and eventually confirmed by his agent. While that was happening, Pronger had just landed in Mexico.

All year long we heard straight from Lauren that she loved it here (in the paper not more than a month ago she said the city reminded her of her hometown) and Chris loved playing in Edmonton.

A couple thousand fans greeted the Prongers when they made their first appearance in the city last August. The fans treated them so well during their stay here. The situation would be quite clearer if Pronger would just come out and tell us what his reasoning is. It would put all those rumours to rest. I'm not asking for a detailed account of what happened.

For the request to get leaked through the media not even 48-hours after he made no final request to Lowe is frustrating and a disgrace, as was the timing of it.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

....As an employee who has voluntarily entered into an agreement (by being part of the CBA), and a contract (with the club), you do not have the same rights.
...

clearly you are mistaken ...

a) of course the player has the right to ask. his vocal chords are his property and if he wants to ask for a trade, he will.

b) he was traded, clearly he has the right to ask for a trade. he asked and he recieved.

 

[Timmy]

clearly you are mistaken ...

a) of course the player has the right to ask. his vocal chords are his property and if he wants to ask for a trade, he will.

b) he was traded, clearly he has the right to ask for a trade. he asked and he recieved.

Fair 'nough.

 

[Fugu]

Maybe another tidbit that is missing from this discussion is that all players are not created equal. If every player was simply an interchangeable part, who cares what the name on the jersey is, right?

Pronger committed to the Oilers. The Oilers thought they had one of the best defensemen in the league locked up for 5 years, and showed they were willing to pay what it took to keep him. They then could concentrate on fitting in the other pieces they needed around that cornerstone.

One year later the best Pronger can offer as an explanation is some vague personal reason? The Oilers are screwed, plain and simple. What Pronger wants is a privilege that athletes bargained away in in their CBA. There is nothing else to consider here. The Oilers are screwed because some primadonna athlete thinks he has more privileges (or rights) than what 99% of his fellow brethren have given up and to which they have adhered. If his family is that important to him, there is a way he can be home in time for dinner every evening of the week, but that isn't what this is about, is it?

 

[PacketFlo]

Maybe another tidbit that is missing from this discussion is that all players are not created equal. If every player was simply an interchangeable part, who cares what the name on the jersey is, right?

Pronger committed to the Oilers. The Oilers thought they had one of the best defensemen in the league locked up for 5 years, and showed they were willing to pay what it took to keep him. They then could concentrate on fitting in the other pieces they needed around that cornerstone.

One year later the best Pronger can offer as an explanation is some vague personal reason? The Oilers are screwed, plain and simple. What Pronger wants is a privilege that athletes bargained away in in their CBA. There is nothing else to consider here. The Oilers are screwed because some primadonna athlete thinks he has more privileges (or rights) than what 99% of his fellow brethren have given up and to which they have adhered. If his family is that important to him, there is a way he can be home in time for dinner every evening of the week, but that isn't what this is about, is it?

Wow, well put! I totally agree with you. If family is that important to him than perhaps a leave of absence from the game is what he needs... without pay though!

 

[Ted Hoffman]

It would be a real shame if, after all the incredibly vicious things people here and elsewhere have said about Pronger, it came out that the reason he asked for a trade was because he had been stalked by someone since coming to Edmonton.

Or that his wife had been stalked by someone.

Or that they had been stalked by more than one person.

Or that threats had been made on their lives or that of their children.

Would he then have an acceptable reason for wanting to leave? Would that cause people who've condemned him and his wife in ways I can't even imagine people have suggested to take note and say, "You know what - maybe I was wrong, I take back what I said?" Or, would those same people say, "Ah, suck it up - he's a multi-millionaire, buy some security cameras and hire some guards. He's got a contract, he should worry more about the fans who put down coin to see him play instead of some stupid wife and kids!"

Eventually the real reason will come out. Not today, not tomorrow, probably not in a week, and maybe not in a month. But it will come out, and if the reason is more like what I described above than it is "my wife didn't like it here so I decided to go where she'd like it", it'll be interesting to see how many people here still stand by their "I hope he/she/they rot in hell"-like statements.

Something for everyone to think about.

 

[Fugu]

It would be a real shame if, after all the incredibly vicious things people here and elsewhere have said about Pronger, it came out that the reason he asked for a trade was because he had been stalked by someone since coming to Edmonton.

Or that his wife had been stalked by someone.

Or that they had been stalked by more than one person.

Or that threats had been made on their lives or that of their children.

Would he then have an acceptable reason for wanting to leave? Would that cause people who've condemned him and his wife in ways I can't even imagine people have suggested to take note and say, "You know what - maybe I was wrong, I take back what I said?" Or, would those same people say, "Ah, suck it up - he's a multi-millionaire, buy some security cameras and hire some guards. He's got a contract, he should worry more about the fans who put down coin to see him play instead of some stupid wife and kids!"

Eventually the real reason will come out. Not today, not tomorrow, probably not in a week, and maybe not in a month. But it will come out, and if the reason is more like what I described above than it is "my wife didn't like it here so I decided to go where she'd like it", it'll be interesting to see how many people here still stand by their "I hope he/she/they rot in hell"-like statements.

Something for everyone to think about.

Yes this is possible. It also is possible that none of these things happened.

Although, to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I think if it had been something as sinister or serious as you suggest, might not the Oilers' management have been a bit more supportive? I'd like to think they would have been very sympathetic under truly severe circumstances.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Yes this is possible. It also is possible that none of these things happened.

Although, to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I think if it had been something as sinister or serious as you suggest, might not the Oilers' management have been a bit more supportive? I'd like to think they would have been very sympathetic under truly severe circumstances.

It's also possible that Pronger really is a serial killer who's rubbed out 9 people since he came to town and thought the cops were closing in so he wanted to get out before the Mounties caught up with him.

I have no idea what the real deal is. None of us knows. Everything has been speculation, and none of it has been proven. But some have their own idea, are convinced it's fact, and have run with it accordingly.

If it was something serious, it's doubtful the Oilers would have said anything either. The Leafs didn't go public with the info on McCabe's wife, the Blues didn't go public with info on Pavol Demitra's family when he lost a child under the age of 2 just a couple years ago, and so forth and so on, and the Devils never talked about Ken Daneyko's alcohol problem except when they had to announce he was going to rehab. It's called "privacy", teams try to respect it if at all possible unless the player wants to step forward and talk about things.

 

[seenmassive]

Agreed. I made a comment in jest, realized I was being stupid, and submitted it by accident. Both truth be told to the matter, yes while we dont know, anything is possible. We have all heard the stories of Corson in Toronto, and Comrie in Edmonton, etc. Like Blues said, we dont know, and anything we post on here is just stuff that we have heard through people, and you cant know for sure until it comes from the horses mouth.

 

[Timmy]

Agreed. I made a comment in jest, realized I was being stupid, and submitted it by accident.

And I thought I was the only one who did that.

Thank you.

 

[seenmassive]

So we are not allowed to speculate? What if a friend of mine said he was going to be traded, but it was not in the media yet, does that mean that I cannot post it? Can I write: RUMOUR: Pronger asked for trade because _____________?

 

[kdb209]

Uhm - no.

Trading a player is not backing out of a contract, in any size, shape or form. The player signed a contract saying he will get paid X dollars over Y years for playing hockey. If he gets traded, guess what - he still gets the X dollars over Y years. The right for a team to trade the player is right there in the Standard Players Contract the player signed (unless he was UFA eligible and got a No Trade Clause). Players know that trades are a fact of life they have to live with to play in the NHL.

ya so ... and why cant the player ask for a trade? thats all i am saying, asking for a trade is not renegging on a contract.

trades are part of the game, as you say. why is it only ok for the team to initiate a trade.

Because the player signed the contract which said the team had the rights to trade him, not the one that said he could initiate a trade - oh right, that contract does not exist.

if the team doesnt trade him, i am not advocating he sits out. i am merely saying he has not broken any contract by asking for a trade.

And this wasn't a case of a player just "asking for a trade". It was a case of the players agent leaking it to the media, pretty much forcing Lowe's hand, and possibly reducing the potential return value, and doing it immediately before the draft, blowing up Edmonton's whole offseason plans.

You may look at it as just "asking for a trade", but make no mistake, with a player of Pronger's caliber, that comes with the implicit threat of holdout, sub par play from an unhappy player, distracting media frenzy, and potential locker room implosion. No, Pronger was not "asking" for a trade, he was forcing it - morally and ethically (and one step short of legally) reneging on his contract.

This wasn't a Carolina/Jeff O'Neill case of a GM repaying a long time player's loyalty and service by quietly negotiating a trade at his request for tragic personal reasons.

I have no problem with RFAs holding out - that is their perfect legal right - they are not under contract.

I even have no problem with an Eric Lindros draft situation, a pick refusing to sign and forcing a trade - he has made no agreement with the club that drafted him.

I have sympathy for a player who signs a long term deal and then gets traded to a city where he doesn't want to be - sympathy yes, but them's the breaks.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for a player who voluntarily signs a multi year deal (as a UFA or soon-to-be one giving up UFA years) and then a year later forces a trade.

Pronger did not have to sign a 5 yr deal last Aug. He could have signed a 1 yr deal and been a UFA right now.

I said it before - a player can have the freedom and flexibility of 1 yr deals or the financial and other security of a long term contract - he can't have it both ways.

As far as I'm concerned, CP is only one step removed from Alexei Yashin of Terrell Owens.

Oh, and:

Maybe another tidbit that is missing from this discussion is that all players are not created equal. If every player was simply an interchangeable part, who cares what the name on the jersey is, right?

Pronger committed to the Oilers. The Oilers thought they had one of the best defensemen in the league locked up for 5 years, and showed they were willing to pay what it took to keep him. They then could concentrate on fitting in the other pieces they needed around that cornerstone.

One year later the best Pronger can offer as an explanation is some vague personal reason? The Oilers are screwed, plain and simple. What Pronger wants is a privilege that athletes bargained away in in their CBA. There is nothing else to consider here. The Oilers are screwed because some primadonna athlete thinks he has more privileges (or rights) than what 99% of his fellow brethren have given up and to which they have adhered. If his family is that important to him, there is a way he can be home in time for dinner every evening of the week, but that isn't what this is about, is it?

What he said. Thanks for saving me a rant.

 

[Rudolf Yaber]

So we are not allowed to speculate? What if a friend of mine said he was going to be traded, but it was not in the media yet, does that mean that I cannot post it? Can I write: RUMOUR: Pronger asked for trade because _____________?

You have to be careful with speculation. We are not here (or shouldn't be here) making statements that can potentially damage a person's reputation. That is a low-blow that far to many hockey fans feel they have a right to because "they pay the players' salaries" and "the players are millionaires, they should have their private lives scrutinized in public." Heard of any other boards lately getting into trouble?

Besides, have you read the HF rules? If those are sincere questions you are asking, the answers are in there. If they are not sincere questions, your argument is baseless.

 

[seenmassive]

I am not trying to argue so much as just asking...

I think this thread has come to a bit of a boil and might need to chill out!

 

[Rudolf Yaber]

You may look at it as just "asking for a trade", but make no mistake, with a player of Pronger's caliber, that comes with the implicit threat of holdout, sub par play from an unhappy player, distracting media frenzy, and potential locker room implosion. No, Pronger was not "asking" for a trade, he was forcing it - morally and ethically (and one step short of legally) reneging on his contract.

Wow...that was speculative. Everything I've read used the word "request".

Are you privy to some information that the rest of us don't have access to? Were you in Kevin Lowe's office when Pronger "demanded" a trade, or is it that Pronger is incapable of "requesting" a trade because he's a great player.