Confirmed with Link: Pierre Dorion Scheduled To Speak (11am, Sept. 23rd)

[Micklebot]

Ya - I disagree. The EK trade was a great deal at the time. Only people who thought his ankle was/would be fine and didn’t know who Norris was thought otherwise.

Anyone who looks at the EK deal as trading a superstar/Norris type dman will always hate that deal. The reality is obvious now ... he isn’t that player anymore.

A proper player eval on EK would include letting him go for nothing before signing him to $11.5 x 8 let alone the haul PD got for him.

Sure, whatever, not really the relevant to my post though.

 

[2CHAINZ]

Ya - I disagree. The EK trade was a great deal at the time. Only people who thought his ankle was/would be fine and didn’t know who Norris was thought otherwise.

Anyone who looks at the EK deal as trading a superstar/Norris type dman will always hate that deal. The reality is obvious now ... he isn’t that player anymore.

A proper player eval on EK would include letting him go for nothing before signing him to $11.5 x 8 let alone the haul PD got for him.

Pierre Dorion made that trade thinking Norris would be a middling top 6 player and the pick would be mid to late 20s.

 

[Sweatred]

Sure, whatever, not really the relevant to my post though.

My apologies - I thought you said this “ an argument can be made that the value he got for Karlsson was lacking”.

No... it really can’t.

 

[Micklebot]

My apologies - I thought you said this “ an argument can be made that the value he got for Karlsson was lacking”.

No... it really can’t.

I guess you missed the subsequent 8 words. I accept your apology.

 

[Sweatred]

I guess you missed the subsequent 8 words. I accept your apology.

You should - there is zero reason to suggest PD did anything other than make a great deal ... dropping little passive insults towards PD in this forums is “Ottawa’s” way of blaming everyone else (EM & PD) while avoiding the lack of revenue this fan base provides its owners. It happens over and over again on here.

There will be more “error” in the Chabot extension than the EK trade. It’s a grand slam.

 

[Rodzilla]

How is that a fact

Cause you look at other trades around the league and teams get better returns for worse players?
Karlsson, at the time, was a top 3 dmen in the game.

Norris wasnt a blue chip prospect, Demelo and Tierney are average and their first although it turned out well wasnt projected to be a top 5 pick. We always get worse deals here it seems, Hoffman, Stone, Karl, lots of stars gone for pretty much nothing, but hey if you’re satisfied it’s all good, I am not.

 

[Micklebot]

You should - there is zero reason to suggest PD did anything other than make a great deal ... dropping little passive insults towards PD in this forums is “Ottawa’s” way of blaming everyone else (EM & PD) while avoiding the lack of revenue this fan base provides its owners. It happens over and over again on here.

Again, you're responding to stuff that has nothing to do with my posts, I'll let you continue your conversation with yourself.

 

[GCK]

Lebrun, Dreger etc have confirmed he was only willing to sign with Vegas.

Or Ottawa. If we had ponied up he’d still be here.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Cause you look at other trades around the league and teams get better returns for worse players?
Karlsson, at the time, was a top 3 dmen in the game.

Norris wasnt a blue chip prospect, Demelo and Tierney are average and their first although it turned out well wasnt projected to be a top 5 pick. We always get worse desls here it seems, Hoffman, Stone, Karl, lots of stars gone for pretty much nothing, but hey if you’re satisfied it’s all good, I am not.

I am satisfied getting Byfield or stutzle + Norris for Karlsson, yes

 

[Rodzilla]

I am satisfied getting Byfield or stutzle + Norris for Karlsson, yes

So am I, reality, as stated above is that the trade wasnt made w those expectations at all , was the return maximized, imo no.

 

[Sweatred]

Again, you're responding to stuff that has nothing to do with my posts, I'll let you continue your conversation with yourself.

Ha ... that’s funny - my copy paste must be broken.

 

[Micklebot]

I am satisfied getting Byfield or stutzle + Norris for Karlsson, yes

Honestly, if we knew at the time of the trade that we were getting 3rd OA, next to nobody would have complained about the value we got in the trade. People wanted Heiskanen, and wouldn't have expected all the other stuff we got from SJ had we landed him.

Seriously, if memory serves, people wanted Heiskanen from Dallas, Sergachev from TB, Glass from VGK. 3rd OA is up there with any of them in value, and the + of Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, and two 2nds, is more than we would have expected as an add on to those premium pieces.

It's hard to knock the way things worked out, might be different if SJ was still a playoff team, but we basically had things land better than could be expected

 

[Sweatred]

might be different if SJ was still a playoff team, but we basically had things land better than could be expected

Incorrect - Norris alone is worth more than EK at $11.5 x8. Any other narrative is just bad player eval or more anti PD noise.

EK’s decline should have been pretty obvious to all. Walking away from EK (like JT) would have been a better option than signing him. The trade is all bonus.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Incorrect - Norris alone is worth more than EK at $11.5 x8. Any other narrative is just bad player eval or more anti PD noise.

EK’s decline should have been pretty obvious to all. Walking away from EK (like JT) would have been a better option than signing him. The trade is all bonus.

I wonder if Dorion would have signed him had he had the option to financially. He certainly seemed to want to sign those Stone and Duchene contracts, had he had the financial backing. I can't help but wonder how he would have managed it all in an alternate universe of an owner willing to sign off with a cap ceiling budget.

Karlsson was not a Duchene or Matthews type star that just puts up numbers, he was a Crosby or McDavid like generational star that could carry a team on his back. The best offensive defenceman seen in decades, arguably could have been considered the best ever had he stayed healthy. Ironically, it was that special ability that led to his demise. He played through it, because the team's success rode on it.

While I wouldn't bet on it here as it really sounds like that ankle is done for, I thought Crosby was done forever, but they figured it out and he was back to dominating eventually. You never know if he were put in the right situation if all of a sudden he's the best player on a playoff team again.

 

[TheDebater]

Incorrect - Norris alone is worth more than EK at $11.5 x8. Any other narrative is just bad player eval or more anti PD noise.

EK’s decline should have been pretty obvious to all. Walking away from EK (like JT) would have been a better option than signing him. The trade is all bonus.

I think there are better ways to approach this debate than this approach you are taking. I would like to believe you when you say that you thought Karlsson was going to decline as much as he did, but to also "have known" the pieces we got back for Karlsson were going to be this good is hard to believe. One or the other, but I doubt both, and I bet even Dorion still cannot believe what has transpired.

Also, Karlsson is not done yet and could come back healthier and in better shape next season and dominate the league again, it would not surprise me one bit.

 

[Tuna99]

Honestly, if we knew at the time of the trade that we were getting 3rd OA, next to nobody would have complained about the value we got in the trade. People wanted Heiskanen, and wouldn't have expected all the other stuff we got from SJ had we landed him.

Seriously, if memory serves, people wanted Heiskanen from Dallas, Sergachev from TB, Glass from VGK. 3rd OA is up there with any of them in value, and the + of Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, and two 2nds, is more than we would have expected as an add on to those premium pieces.

It's hard to knock the way things worked out, might be different if SJ was still a playoff team, but we basically had things land better than could be expected

so next year if Stone blows out his knee and is never the same player do we win that trade?

I was on here saying SJ doesn’t have a great future and is due for a slide after the trade and 1st round pick could be top 10. People spoke about this, and if you assumed it was one way or the other (Norris was a 3rd line C and the 1st pick would be on the 20s) you don’t watch hockey.

the Blues went from worst to Cup last year - anyone who can predict the standings Correctly would be an NHL GM

 

[Leafmealone11]

so next year if Stone blows out his knee and is never the same player do we win that trade?

I was on here saying SJ doesn’t have a great future and is due for a slide after the trade and 1st round pick could be top 10. People spoke about this, and if you assumed it was one way or the other (Norris was a 3rd line C and the 1st pick would be on the 20s) you don’t watch hockey.

the Blues went from worst to Cup last year - anyone who can predict the standings Correctly would be an NHL GM

They traded a pending UFA at the deadline what do you mean won the trade? Look at the entire trade deadline day history the sens were not in it to win it

 

[Tuna99]

Dorion loves old players, not the veteran with a few years left but the old hockey player who’s done (Burrows, Kelly, Hainsey) - just don’t want him to sign or trade for any vets who can’t do it. Are basically player cheer leaders. Murray loved his guys that were done too, an organizational wart

 

[JD1]

So am I, reality, as stated above is that the trade wasnt made w those expectations at all , was the return maximized, imo no.

So in my view the feeling on this board was that a long line of GMs would emerge who were willing to hand over the best young assets they had. In that context, I'd agree, the return was underwhelming. Stepping back into the real world, that lineup never materialized.

It's really easy to sit back and state we could have done better, should have done better. It's hypothetical.

This site damn near broke the internet when that trade went off. The claims then were outrageous. And anyone at the time that viewed that trade as anything less than an unmitigated disaster was skewered here and subjected to no end of insults.

You can hold the view that we should have got more. Free world, hold whatever view you like. But because you used the term reality... reality is there simply wasn't a lineup of teams looking to dump talent to acquire him.

 

[JD1]

Honestly, if we knew at the time of the trade that we were getting 3rd OA, next to nobody would have complained about the value we got in the trade. People wanted Heiskanen, and wouldn't have expected all the other stuff we got from SJ had we landed him.

Seriously, if memory serves, people wanted Heiskanen from Dallas, Sergachev from TB, Glass from VGK. 3rd OA is up there with any of them in value, and the + of Norris, Tierney, DeMelo, Balcers, and two 2nds, is more than we would have expected as an add on to those premium pieces.

It's hard to knock the way things worked out, might be different if SJ was still a playoff team, but we basically had things land better than could be expected

Maybe it was the expectations that were off? Clearly of the names you listed....those teams were not lined up at PD's door looking to hand those players over

 

[Sweatred]

I think there are better ways to approach this debate than this approach you are taking. I would like to believe you when you say that you thought Karlsson was going to decline as much as he did, but to also "have known" the pieces we got back for Karlsson were going to be this good is hard to believe. One or the other, but I doubt both, and I bet even Dorion still cannot believe what has transpired.

Also, Karlsson is not done yet and could come back healthier and in better shape next season and dominate the league again, it would not surprise me one bit.

All fair points - my main angle on evaluating EK relates to him heavily insisting on “market value”. He was dead set on getting paid and he did. There was no $8.5 x8 year option to keep or sign EK so it became a binary choice of $11.5 or nothing. On that premise, I’d rather not have EK than pay him $11.5 for 8 more years. At that point getting a SJ 2ND would have been a better option than signing EK so everything else (SJ 1st, Norris etc) is purely bonus.

 

[Micklebot]

Maybe it was the expectations that were off? Clearly of the names you listed....those teams were not lined up at PD's door looking to hand those players over

Sure, expectations didnt match what happened, so they were off. No team ever wants to give up their best player just as no team wants to give up their best prospects. I think a big issue with the situation is that in the end, Karlsson was unwilling to sign an extension as part of the transaction, so SJ, Dal, VGK and Tbay could all genuinely argue they were trading for 1 year of the player. Maybe had he signed a fair market deal prior to the trade we would have gotten one of those guys. Expectations on a return were set very early on, when an extension as part of the deal seemed plausible or perhaps even expected. As time went on, the teams leverage (percieved or actual, and irrespective of who is at fault) slipped away but the same expectations remained. Logically fans should have adjusted expectations as circumstances changed or became more clear, but its not surprising that they didn't.

 

[GCK]

I wonder if Dorion would have signed him had he had the option to financially. He certainly seemed to want to sign those Stone and Duchene contracts, had he had the financial backing. I can't help but wonder how he would have managed it all in an alternate universe of an owner willing to sign off with a cap ceiling budget.

Karlsson was not a Duchene or Matthews type star that just puts up numbers, he was a Crosby or McDavid like generational star that could carry a team on his back. The best offensive defenceman seen in decades, arguably could have been considered the best ever had he stayed healthy. Ironically, it was that special ability that led to his demise. He played through it, because the team's success rode on it.

While I wouldn't bet on it here as it really sounds like that ankle is done for, I thought Crosby was done forever, but they figured it out and he was back to dominating eventually. You never know if he were put in the right situation if all of a sudden he's the best player on a playoff team again.

Dorion really wanted to keep Karlsson, thankfully there was no way Karlsson was staying. Karlsson hates Melnyk and was leaving no matter what was offered.

 

[JD1]

Sure, expectations didnt match what happened, so they were off. No team ever wants to give up their best player just as no team wants to give up their best prospects. I think a big issue with the situation is that in the end, Karlsson was unwilling to sign an extension as part of the transaction, so SJ, Dal, VGK and Tbay could all genuinely argue they were trading for 1 year of the player. Maybe had he signed a fair market deal prior to the trade we would have gotten one of those guys. Expectations on a return were set very early on, when an extension as part of the deal seemed plausible or perhaps even expected. As time went on, the teams leverage (percieved or actual, and irrespective of who is at fault) slipped away but the same expectations remained. Logically fans should have adjusted expectations as circumstances changed or became more clear, but its not surprising that they didn't.

The team gave other teams the opportunity to talk contract with him no?

 

[Xspyrit]

It's crazy how people "takes" on trades are all over the place. It's like we can't understand the difference between looking at it "at the time of the trade" and "in hindsight"

Dorion was desesperate to re-sign Stone, even if he knew it would have needed to be under "Melnyk conditions" (lower term, lower salary and/or lower signing bonuses). He tried until the very end, that's why he signed him to that 1 year deal. So much was uncertain at that time, but in the end he just couldn't compete with what other teams can offer. In Stone's case, it seems it was only Vegas so Dorion didn't have any leverage. He was still able to get a 19 y/o guy that was a recent 15th OA pick and who has been regarded as a top prospect by every source. Being certain of how good or bad he will be is like saying "the Sens are going to win the Cup in 3 years". At this point, it is WAY too early to have any idea.

That trade sucked because you should never trade a guy like Stone in his prime (26 y/o), and frankly the return should have been more similar to Karlsson's but wasn't because the context sucked. To improve that "context", Dorion would have needed to give up on trying to sign Stone much earlier and trade him the previous year, before he became an upcoming UFA.

An Ottawa Senator GM under Melnyk is working under extremely hard conditions vs his peers. If that 2018-19 seeason went better and the ship would have started to turn around, things ould have been different and maybe Stone, Duchene and Pageau would still be Senators. Hard to fault the GM for trying to keep his players.

Regarding the Karlsson trade, it was a good trade from the start. It sucked that it was only for futures (because at the moment, we didn't know about the amplitutde of the rebuild) and that DeMelo was the only D-man in the return, but in terms of pieces, it had the potential to be a really good return.

That you like or not, Norris and Balcers were 2 very good prospects that could still grow. A 1st round pick is always a good piece and while it was not garanteed that the Sharks were going to miss the playoffs, there was a chance (that seemed likely to me at least, as you can see in my post history). And luckily for us, they struggled real bad which in the end gives us the 3rd OA pick in THIS draft, which makes it an incredible return. Plus two 2nds and Tierney are also good/decent pieces. And DeMelo was better than expected with the Sens and even returned another 3rd. This is a homerun trade no matter how you put it,

Karlsson was going to be a generationnal D-man but fate kinda changed his destiny. The injury from Cooke and the one in 2017 slowed him down. He should still be a very good D-man for years but he won't be as dominating as he could have been if it wasn't for these injuries. It was known when the trade happened. We didn't trade a generational D-man, we traded an elite offensive D-man.

Edit : oh and Brassard... He was not a "fading asset" at the time, he was coming off back-to-back 60 pts seasons while being a HUGE playoffs performer. He started fading in Ottawa but 2 years later he still returned a top goalie prospect, a 1st round pick and a decent veteran D-man (who returned another 3rd)

Saying/thinking that Brassard was a crap/fading asset when acquired shows a total lack of understanding of the NHL market. The trade sucked because we gave up on Zibanejad who was much younger and who could still break out (and he did), the Sens obviously didn't have much faith in this to happen. If he never broke out like he did and stayed the player he was, there wouldn't be anything to cry about, the Penguins return for Brassard would have more than made up for it.