Pick An NHL Ready Prospect For Ladd

[Guerzy]

Hamonic and Trouba look to be very close statistically. Hamonic might have a slight edge defensively. Trouba has the advantages of youth and contract status. I wouldn't mind Trouba for Hamonic if we got a nice add. We then still have the L/R imbalance so it might depend on other moving parts fitting together. I'm not pushing the idea but not ruling it out either. I agree that doing it for cap reasons is nonsensical.

If I'm trading Trouba for a C to Edm. I want Drai not RNH. They say no? We say OK, go find yourself another 21 YO top pair D. Negotiate a little!

If we could get an equivalent young LHD I'd do that but I don't see that happening.



You are still keeping Ladd, presumably at 6.3 mil and on the 3rd line. Does that make sense considering the return we might get for Ladd? We could take that 6-6.3 to the UFA market and sign a LW. What will Boedker get? Too much? How about McGinn then and we keep the change?

Ladd can be replaced.



Yes . you . have! You are arguing against the existence of this thread.

I want a LHD prospect for Ladd. Maybe I am aiming too high but the rental of a top pair LW is valued highly at TD time and prospects are undervalued. Once we get that LHD we are free to move one of Trouba or Myers if we choose. Wait for the lottery, just in case we win Mathews. When we don't, use Trouba to go after Drai in the off-season. If it takes a little add then so be it.

Pretty well agree with everything you're saying here.

I kept Ladd in that example because I don't know what we are going to do with him, we will know in the next few weeks. Which is why I put "?" beside his name.

If Chevy, Maurice, management, etc feel Ladd is a declining asset to us and won't rebound, and would only be a 3rd line 30 point forward for us going forward then by all means it makes no sense to re-sign him.

On the flip side if they feel he is just having a blip on the radar poor(er) season in comparison to his standards, and they feel he can/will rebound into his better form from here out, then perhaps it makes sense to re-sign him.

Either way, re-sign or part ways, I have some worry. I'm not saying "re-sign him" or "don't re-sign him" because I honestly am just not sure which road to take because I can't tell what the future holds. There is a part of me that is fine re-signing him because I feel he can rebound back to his regular form (and his numbers still reflect a 1st liner this year, just poorer than he has been the last few years), but there is also a part of me that would be okay parting ways with him given his play this year, his age, his style of game, etc.

 

[ecolad]

Pretty well agree with everything you're saying here.

I kept Ladd in that example because I don't know what we are going to do with him, we will know in the next few weeks. Which is why I put "?" beside his name.

If Chevy, Maurice, management, etc feel Ladd is a declining asset to us and won't rebound, and would only be a 3rd line 30 point forward for us going forward then by all means it makes no sense to re-sign him.

On the flip side if they feel he is just having a blip on the radar poor(er) season in comparison to his standards, and they feel he can/will rebound into his better form from here out, then perhaps it makes sense to re-sign him.

Either way, re-sign or part ways, I have some worry. I'm not saying "re-sign him" or "don't re-sign him" because I honestly am just not sure which road to take because I can't tell what the future holds. There is a part of me that is fine re-signing him because I feel he can rebound back to his regular form (and his numbers still reflect a 1st liner this year, just poorer than he has been the last few years), but there is also a part of me that would be okay parting ways with him given his play this year, his age, his style of game, etc.

Guerzy, just a word of caution if you are relying on the Warrior Chart of Ladd for 2015 and 2016 as displayed earlier in this thread to draw conclusions about his performance this year.

I believe it was Garret who clarified that the charts do not represent single season performance but rather a weighted regression of previous seasons. Even with fairly dramatic drop in performance this year, the Warrior chart for 2016 would not change significantly from that of 2015 because this years data represents only a small percent of the total data utilized.

I`m definitely not the guy who should be raising this however cause I could be dead wrong There are many others who understand this far better than me and I hope that they`ll speak up and correct me if I`m wrong. We are all beginning to use the Warrior charts more often and could benefit from a little basic explanation of what we are looking at.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

On-topic - I have a feeling if we trade Ladd it shakes the room, and maybe in a good way. Wheeler gets named Captain. Kind of wakes everyone up, if you will. Up the standings we go just enough to miss out on a top 3-5 pick...

Could just as easily work the opposite way. Ladd played well last game. Maybe he is going to start playing for that next contract. We keep him and he leads us to the 10-12th draft position.

 

[Constable]

Could just as easily work the opposite way. Ladd played well last game. Maybe he is goning to start playing for that next contract. We keep him and he leads us to the 10-12th draft position.

and looking at our record with 5th-12th picks i am pretty sure we'll get an amazing deal

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Valid points, mort. I still think he commands at least his 6 million per over 5-6 years if we re-sign him. If he gets to the open market it will likely be outrageous in the 6 years and likely upwards of 7 million per. I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. If he doesn't soften his demands here I think he will be traded, without a doubt. I have a feeling we will see Ladd soften a bit here. We're getting down to the wire. I envision there being one final push to get a contract done. This is all interesting because yesterday we seen Byfuglien soften and leave some on the table here both in years and money. Will the captain do the same?

Interesting times.

Agree except for some numbers. On the open market I think he gets 6 years and 6+ mil, maybe up to about that 6.3 you mentioned. His apparent decline will have been noticed by every other team. I don't think anyone gambles beyond that.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Ya, I was comparing Ladd to Wheeler this year, and also looked at Ladd's last few years compared to this year. Which I understand he is worse this year, although still top line quality by the looks of it?

Still a poor tool for looking at change from one year to the next. Very poor in fact. He has been much worse than that this year but you are still looking at a 3 year blended, weighted picture.

 

[Derfel*]

Still a poor tool for looking at change from one year to the next. Very poor in fact. He has been much worse than that this year but you are still looking at a 3 year blended, weighted picture.

Agreed - so bad he is 4th in points instead of 1st like last season.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

wait, wait wait, Mort...

I am simply trying to cover different angles of thinking. I have said PLENTY the last month that I'd be ok with both Ladd and Byfuglien gone because their respective ages now and throughout a 6+ year contract scares me. With that being said I am happy with Byfuglien at 5 years.

Edit: If Chevy, Maurice, management view Ladd as a player in his decline who would be on the 3rd line next year getting 30 points, then obviously I don't want them to go forth and re-sign him.

I just said this 2 days ago on the main boards re; Ladd:




My whole point is here, Mort, *if* the Jets wanted to trim some bottom-end roster players I think they could do it be it to help accommodate Byfuglien, Ladd (if management wants him) or even to accommodate Scheifele/Trouba new contracts. We can agree to disagree because I think Stuart potentially could be moved, same with Thorburn. Pardy is off the books after the season anyway, as is Clitsome, etc.

Thor doesn't matter at 1.2. Neither does Pardy at 1.0. I think both are at least close to worth their contracts. Pardy needs to play more for his and Thor needs to play less but those are different issues. The bad ones are Stu and Pav. Both could be bought out. It is possible that both could be traded. Difficult but possible. I don't think Chevy is likely to try. Stu even has a NTC of some kind.

I don't think we really need to agree to disagree because Chevy's willingness to trade those 2 is more significant than the ability to trade them. Whatever the root of it I think we all know that it is unlikely to happen.

This is all in the context of Trading Trouba for the wrong reason. I'm pretty sure that was just Lawless dropping a brain fart. Might have seemed like an idea for the few seconds it took him to write but is obvious nonsense as soon as you think about it a bit. There could be good reasons for trading Trouba (or anyone else) but that isn't one.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Pretty well agree with everything you're saying here.

I kept Ladd in that example because I don't know what we are going to do with him, we will know in the next few weeks. Which is why I put "?" beside his name.

If Chevy, Maurice, management, etc feel Ladd is a declining asset to us and won't rebound, and would only be a 3rd line 30 point forward for us going forward then by all means it makes no sense to re-sign him.

On the flip side if they feel he is just having a blip on the radar poor(er) season in comparison to his standards, and they feel he can/will rebound into his better form from here out, then perhaps it makes sense to re-sign him.

Either way, re-sign or part ways, I have some worry. I'm not saying "re-sign him" or "don't re-sign him" because I honestly am just not sure which road to take because I can't tell what the future holds. There is a part of me that is fine re-signing him because I feel he can rebound back to his regular form (and his numbers still reflect a 1st liner this year, just poorer than he has been the last few years), but there is also a part of me that would be okay parting ways with him given his play this year, his age, his style of game, etc.

I agree with this. Really only taking issue with the term and money you started with. They were at the high end for 'good Ladd'. I think they need to be adjusted down based on this season. However Chevy has the real medical opinion on his hernia recovery. None of us has that. I think Chevy made a good decision with Buff. That is keep him but pay a little more to get a shorter term. I will just have to hope he does the same with Ladd. Trade or keep. Either can be good or bad depending on the details.

 

[puck stoppa]

Guerzy, I saw the Shaw proposal there, no one responded but I like it. This team really needs a good third line centre IMO, going forward they have a need there for sure. Whats Shaw's contract like?

 

[Guerzy]

Guerzy, I saw the Shaw proposal there, no one responded but I like it. This team really needs a good third line centre IMO, going forward they have a need there for sure. Whats Shaw's contract like?

I believe he is RFA after this season.

 

[10Ducky10]

Maurice has mentioned that he sees Copp making the third line eventually.

 

[Grind]

Maurice has mentioned that he sees Copp making the third line eventually.

He also saw Lowry as a #1 shutdown center at the top of this season and we all know how that played out.


Right now copp is fine a fourth line center, but he's not playing above that paygrade ATM.

He can improve, but lowrys farther ahead already and I just don't see copp jumping him on the depth chart.

Could happen though. Ideally they both end up above average third line centers and give us some strong bottom six depth, but I expect and will settle for copp being average - above average fourth line.

 

[Guerzy]

I will add to this Lowry and Copp projections by Maurice that he also said/viewed Brandon Sutter as a #2 center and elite shutdown center back when both were with the Canes.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I will add to this Lowry and Copp projections by Maurice that he also said/viewed Brandon Sutter as an elite shutdown center back when both were with the Canes.

You think it's tire-pumping talk, or do you think he really believes this stuff? I'm not always sure with Maurice. Seems like an incredibly smart guy, so I tend to think he's blowing smoke with some of the comments to the media.

 

[Guerzy]

You think it's tire-pumping talk, or do you think he really believes this stuff? I'm not always sure with Maurice. Seems like an incredibly smart guy, so I tend to think he's blowing smoke with some of the comments to the media.

Perhaps a bit of that, but even so, by a coach coming out and saying this stuff, what does that do to the player? the expectations? to his mind and game? does he try and force things or change things on the ice to be the guy Maurice has said to the media he can be? And if Maurice is blowing smoke to the media but being real and honest to the player in the room, what good is that? the pressures and mindset it may apply to a young player that realistically, is not good or likely will never be good enough for such a role. These are players breaking into the NHL, rookies, they're raw, they're not vets. If Maurice said yadda yadda yadda about an established vet but we all know it's not the case (Stuart, for a prime example), that's one thing, but to say these things about a young player?

As someone who has been hitched to Maurice for a good number of years now, I do think he is a very smart hockey guy, but sometimes he just needs to keep his mouth shut because he can say too much.

 

[truck]

He also saw Lowry as a #1 shutdown center at the top of this season and we all know how that played out.


Right now copp is fine a fourth line center, but he's not playing above that paygrade ATM.

He can improve, but lowrys farther ahead already and I just don't see copp jumping him on the depth chart.

Could happen though. Ideally they both end up above average third line centers and give us some strong bottom six depth, but I expect and will settle for copp being average - above average fourth line.

Lowry isn't better than a 4th liner at this point either.

I said at the end of last year that this team would be set when last year Lowry was a staple on the 4th line.

 

[truck]

You think it's tire-pumping talk, or do you think he really believes this stuff? I'm not always sure with Maurice. Seems like an incredibly smart guy, so I tend to think he's blowing smoke with some of the comments to the media.

I am still somewhat disappointed that Copp started the year on the 4th line. He has been given zero chance to showcase any element of offensive upside as a pro.

He hasn't been bad, but he has hardly played and he hasn't been a difference maker. His role is one that I'd rather see filled by a vet while Copp has a chance to score in the AHL. To me it seems like they wrote him off as a career 4th line guy before he played a minute of pro hockey.

 

[ps241]

I am still somewhat disappointed that Copp started the year on the 4th line. He has been given zero chance to showcase any element of offensive upside as a pro.

He hasn't been bad, but he has hardly played and he hasn't been a difference maker. His role is one that I'd rather see filled by a vet while Copp has a chance to score in the AHL. To me it seems like they wrote him off as a career 4th line guy before he played a minute of pro hockey.

I agree truck good post. The problem is Winnipeg doesn't take their 4th line seriously. Its a low minute usage place we stash our fighters when they aren't playing on the 3rd line and that is toxic environment for the rounded development of a young asset like Copp IMO. Not sure what the rush was to skip the AHL step?

 

[sipowicz]

What we can conclude is that the Jets have a wealth of NHL 4th line centres in Burmi, Lowry and Copp!

Ladds agent is a funny (funny, funny) guy:

Luke Fox of Sportsnet: Andrew Ladd last asking price was a six-year deal at $41 million ($6.83 million), and talks have now gone cold. The Panthers and Blackhawks are two teams looking for a rental forward. If the Jets look to trade him, they could be happy with a draft pick and a prospect. The Blackhawks don’t have a second round pick this year.

 

[Derfel*]

What we can conclude is that the Jets have a wealth of NHL 4th line centres in Burmi, Lowry and Copp!

Ladds agent is a funny (funny, funny) guy:

Luke Fox of Sportsnet: Andrew Ladd last asking price was a six-year deal at $41 million ($6.83 million), and talks have now gone cold. The Panthers and Blackhawks are two teams looking for a rental forward. If the Jets look to trade him, they could be happy with a draft pick and a prospect. The Blackhawks don’t have a second round pick this year.

Ladd could probably seal a deal right now for 6.5/6.5/6/5/4/4.

 

[Boreal]

At 6.83 per, I reallllllly like Ville Pokka .

 

[truck]

At 6.83 per, I reallllllly like Ville Pokka .

Same!

 

[10Ducky10]

What we can conclude is that the Jets have a wealth of NHL 4th line centres in Burmi, Lowry and Copp!

Ladds agent is a funny (funny, funny) guy:

Luke Fox of Sportsnet: Andrew Ladd last asking price was a six-year deal at $41 million ($6.83 million), and talks have now gone cold. The Panthers and Blackhawks are two teams looking for a rental forward. If the Jets look to trade him, they could be happy with a draft pick and a prospect. The Blackhawks don’t have a second round pick this year.

That's more than a million too much per year.

 

[CaptainChef]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/andrew-ladd-wants-to-stay-in-winnipeg-still-open-to-extension/

I'm reading this as a 6 year extension is imminent

Only thing left to be decided is the $ & how long the NTC applies.