Player Discussion Phillip Danault II: 2nd C? edition

[76]

Players always say things to get you excited but he does sound extra dedicated. Let's hope he can take the next step.

So underrated by Habs fans. People didn't even think he could be as good as Eller. I think he's not getting more props because of a few things. One is that they see a future DD. A french guy who's not quite good enough to be a #1 C who's getting those mins anyways. Had he stayed in the bottom 6 and excelled there it might be a different story. Weirdly he does better than that by showing he can hang on a 1st line but since he doesn't quite shine, people just think he's in over his head as opposed to being impressed that he was on a 1st line for a fairly successsful team.

Secondly, it would be giving MB a lot of credit because he literally stole him. I think that mixture is why people aren't more hyped on him. It's a shame. To me at the very least he's probably one of the better 3rd line Cs in the league.

Yeah, instead of being excited about a young promising player who just played a great first full NHL season at center, they even try hard to downgrade him. Simply unbelievable. Probably Just because he is an amazing grab from bergevin. We have definitely the most ridiculous and ignorant online fan base.

 

[417]

Players always say things to get you excited but he does sound extra dedicated. Let's hope he can take the next step.

So underrated by Habs fans. People didn't even think he could be as good as Eller. I think he's not getting more props because of a few things. One is that they see a future DD. A french guy who's not quite good enough to be a #1 C who's getting those mins anyways. Had he stayed in the bottom 6 and excelled there it might be a different story. Weirdly he does better than that by showing he can hang on a 1st line but since he doesn't quite shine, people just think he's in over his head as opposed to being impressed that he was on a 1st line for a fairly successsful team.

Secondly, it would be giving MB a lot of credit because he literally stole him. I think that mixture is why people aren't more hyped on him. It's a shame. To me at the very least he's probably one of the better 3rd line Cs in the league.

How petty do you have to be to have that type of reasoning (not talking about you btw).

Sad!

 

[Doc McKenna]

Yeah, instead of being excited about a young promising player who just played a great first full NHL season at center, they even try hard to downgrade him. Simply unbelievable. Probably Just because he is an amazing grab from bergevin. We have definitely the most ridiculous and ignorant online fan base.

That goes both ways as you guys think we didn't have a bad off season because of the Drouin trade So much wrong on this team and danault being our 1st C is a symptom, not a cause of it.

No he is not a 1st line center and likely will be a limited 2nd C if played there. Why is Dan-o better suited to playing 1C than Chuck? BTW we told you DD would impede not just eller but chuck as well, and you guys said it wouldn't happen. He just has to earn it from Therrien. YOU WERE WRONG.

 

[Sorinth]

Players always say things to get you excited but he does sound extra dedicated. Let's hope he can take the next step.

So underrated by Habs fans. People didn't even think he could be as good as Eller. I think he's not getting more props because of a few things. One is that they see a future DD. A french guy who's not quite good enough to be a #1 C who's getting those mins anyways. Had he stayed in the bottom 6 and excelled there it might be a different story. Weirdly he does better than that by showing he can hang on a 1st line but since he doesn't quite shine, people just think he's in over his head as opposed to being impressed that he was on a 1st line for a fairly successsful team.

Secondly, it would be giving MB a lot of credit because he literally stole him. I think that mixture is why people aren't more hyped on him. It's a shame. To me at the very least he's probably one of the better 3rd line Cs in the league.

And like DD if you try to be realistic with your expectations and say he's something like he's a third liner you get called a hater.

And your last point seems like nonsense, virtually everybody praised the Drouin trade. Nobody was complaining about it because they didn't want to give Bergevin credit.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

Yeah, instead of being excited about a young promising player who just played a great first full NHL season at center, they even try hard to downgrade him. Simply unbelievable. Probably Just because he is an amazing grab from bergevin. We have definitely the most ridiculous and ignorant online fan base.

Just kind of shocked there wasn't more kudos given to him. Completely surpassed expectations.

How petty do you have to be to have that type of reasoning (not talking about you btw).

Sad!

There's plenty of bad that MB's done. His handling of players imo has just been rancid among quite a few others. But I just can't stand how far the spectrum of MB talk has shifted to the negative where he can't do anything right and praising ANYTHING he does is tantamount to treason by many.

And like DD if you try to be realistic with your expectations and say he's something like he's a third liner you get called a hater.

And your last point seems like nonsense, virtually everybody praised the Drouin trade. Nobody was complaining about it because they didn't want to give Bergevin credit.

I don't think my last point is nonsense just because a decent portion of Habs fans begrudgingly thought MB made a good move. Still countless others were mad that we traded away Sergachev or thought we should've got a C as if MB could've got Tavares but opted for Drouin instead out of sheer ignorance.

If they didn't think it was a good move they'd be utterly ridiculous. Plus it was such a big move so people were bound to have an opinion on it while Danault can just be ignored for the most part. They're not really analagous imo.

There are very few detractors who approach anywhere near objectivity when talking about MB. it's not as if they have an obligation to or they're bad for not doing it but let's not pretend that a large portion of the fan base gives MB a fair balanced appraisal. They want him gone and that's fine. I can see plenty of reasons why.

 

[MXD]

And like DD if you try to be realistic with your expectations and say he's something like he's a third liner you get called a hater.

And your last point seems like nonsense, virtually everybody praised the Drouin trade. Nobody was complaining about it because they didn't want to give Bergevin credit.

...Actually, a player that gets to 40 pts with very little pp time isn't a 3rd C in the 2017-18 NHL Landscape.

Phil Danault is basically David Legwand.

 

[Wats]

Unlike DD, Danault actually has the speed and all around ability to be considered a true #2 C if he can get his offensive production to 50+ points. He can be good complement offensive players with defensive issues like Drouin/Galchenyuk.

Right now, he's a good 3rd line C. His offense is not consistent enough yet. From Dec 8 - Jan 31 he got 18 points in 25 games. From Feb-Apr after moving to top 6 officially he ended season with 13 points in 31 games. He also does not have a history in AHL of producing top 6 level. I don't really see the positive of jumping to crowning him something before he becomes it. For example, Galchenyuk is not a 1st liner, nor is Drouin. They can be, but to say they are right now it not true.

 

[Bryson]

Danault is not a 2nd line C and the problem with this team is they are going to end up getting stuck having to over pay way above his pay grade for the simple fact that he is playing in a chair way above his skill level, same as DD. Instead of playing and investing in guys with real offensive potential like Galchenyuk, they do things backwards.

 

[LastWordArmy]

If he can get 40 points in his first full season, hopefully he can grow and build off that.

 

[MXD]

Unlike DD, Danault actually has the speed and all around ability to be considered a true #2 C if he can get his offensive production to 50+ points. He can be good complement offensive players with defensive issues like Drouin/Galchenyuk.

Right now, he's a good 3rd line C. His offense is not consistent enough yet. From Dec 8 - Jan 31 he got 18 points in 25 games. From Feb-Apr after moving to top 6 officially he ended season with 13 points in 31 games. He also does not have a history in AHL of producing top 6 level. I don't really see the positive of jumping to crowning him something before he becomes it. For example, Galchenyuk is not a 1st liner, nor is Drouin. They can be, but to say they are right now it not true.

See... 50 pts with little or no PP time, and you probably can't talk about a 2nd Center (a bit moot, since a player with 45 ES points and 5 PK points usually plays on the PP, but it could happen). 50 pts with lots of PP time and production and you're talking about a PP specialist.

Danault is not a 2nd line C and the problem with this team is they are going to end up getting stuck having to over pay way above his pay grade for the simple fact that he is playing in a chair way above his skill level, same as DD. Instead of playing and investing in guys with real offensive potential like Galchenyuk, they do things backwards.

Why is he not a 2nd Center?

 

[Sorinth]

I don't think my last point is nonsense just because a decent portion of Habs fans begrudgingly thought MB made a good move. Still countless others were mad that we traded away Sergachev or thought we should've got a C as if MB could've got Tavares but opted for Drouin instead out of sheer ignorance.

If they didn't think it was a good move they'd be utterly ridiculous. Plus it was such a big move so people were bound to have an opinion on it while Danault can just be ignored for the most part. They're not really analagous imo.

There are very few detractors who approach anywhere near objectivity when talking about MB. it's not as if they have an obligation to or they're bad for not doing it but let's not pretend that a large portion of the fan base gives MB a fair balanced appraisal. They want him gone and that's fine. I can see plenty of reasons why.

It goes both ways, there are also a group of fans who will defend any and every move Bergevin makes regardless of whether they think it's good or bad. In fact a few have outright said as much.

People are allowed to have dissenting views, it doesn't mean they aren't being objective because you like Sergachev more then Drouin. Yzerman like Sergachev more then Drouin so it's maybe not so crazy a thought.

...Actually, a player that gets to 40 pts with very little pp time isn't a 3rd C in the 2017-18 NHL Landscape.

Phil Danault is basically David Legwand.

Yes, but there are questions about sustainability and whether he can produce that without being glued to Pacioretty/Radulov. Dale Weise would produce at 40 points when paired with Pacioretty, we still thought of him as a 3rd liner though.

I've said it before in this thread, if Danault can repeat his 40 points without being used with two elite players then he'll have solidified himself as a legitimate top-6 guy. I'm on the fence as to whether he will or not.

 

[Bryson]

See... 50 pts with little or no PP time, and you probably can't talk about a 2nd Center (a bit moot, since a player with 45 ES points and 5 PK points usually plays on the PP, but it could happen). 50 pts with lots of PP time and production and you're talking about a PP specialist.





Why is he not a 2nd Center?

Nothing I've seen from him screams offensive potential, not in the AHL or NHL.

Desharnais was largely recognized for playing out of his chair while playing with the teams best wingers and he still managed to score 60 points. Best Danault could do was 40pts? Take away best wingers and PP and he'll be down to 30 if that.

 

[76]

That goes both ways as you guys think we didn't have a bad off season because of the Drouin trade So much wrong on this team and danault being our 1st C is a symptom, not a cause of it.

No he is not a 1st line center and likely will be a limited 2nd C if played there. Why is Dan-o better suited to playing 1C than Chuck? BTW we told you DD would impede not just eller but chuck as well, and you guys said it wouldn't happen. He just has to earn it from Therrien. YOU WERE WRONG.

What the f are you talking about. Damn, how miserable it is.
Read my post again and tell me where I said Danault is a c1. Or where did I talked about Drouin, or Therrien, or DD?
And Who Is WE exactly? Your gang? You told something to me? Are you sure?

Lol what the f is that.

 

[Wats]

See... 50 pts with little or no PP time, and you probably can't talk about a 2nd Center (a bit moot, since a player with 45 ES points and 5 PK points usually plays on the PP, but it could happen). 50 pts with lots of PP time and production and you're talking about a PP specialist.
Why is he not a 2nd Center?

Not sure what you mean to be honest. I think 50+ points is possible, I just don't see how he's already a #2 C based of last season.

Lars Eller at the same age put up 30 points in 46 games with low amount of PP time. Lot of people, including myself, thought he is going to trend up from there. Desharnais got 60 points in his first full season and never came close to it again. I think it's fair to want to see how 17/18 goes before crowning Danault as a true #2 C. I think Byron is a 3rd liner right now too until he proves in 17/18 he can be a 20+goal / ~45 point guy without PP time.

It's not a easy feat to be top 6 C in Montreal market.

 

[dackelljuneaubulis02]

It goes both ways, there are also a group of fans who will defend any and every move Bergevin makes regardless of whether they think it's good or bad. In fact a few have outright said as much.

People are allowed to have dissenting views, it doesn't mean they aren't being objective because you like Sergachev more then Drouin. Yzerman like Sergachev more then Drouin so it's maybe not so crazy a thought.



Yes, but there are questions about sustainability and whether he can produce that without being glued to Pacioretty/Radulov. Dale Weise would produce at 40 points when paired with Pacioretty, we still thought of him as a 3rd liner though.

I've said it before in this thread, if Danault can repeat his 40 points without being used with two elite players then he'll have solidified himself as a legitimate top-6 guy. I'm on the fence as to whether he will or not.

Yeah but the MB defenders are in such a minority. Especially the ones on this site who are as staunch as you say. You can count them on two hands. I don't see why many people seem like the two warring factions are on equal footing whenever people bring up MB detractors. The overwhelming majority on this site are pretty rabidly anti-MB and it shows in the discourse. Anyone with a positive opinion on something get crushed and have their sanity questioned. Just because a few fight back doesn't mean that the two sides are equal enough to mention 'it goes both ways' like it's really a fair fight lol.

Of course people are allowed to have dissenting views but criticizing that trade for us just sounds like one is drowning in groupthink from a board that overwhelmingly hates it's GM. Which again isn't a crime and like I said I can see why. I'm not thrilled with him myself. Drouin has shown way more than Sergachev. Higher pedigree and has just actually flat out proven more. Sergachev has many question marks and so does Drouin but base line you're going to get a top 6 guy even if he doesn't improve. Could possibly be a gamebreaker. Sergachev is still very much a wild card and could likely develop long after our so called window. He could end up being better than Drouin but right now this looks like a big win.

 

[Belial]

Yes, but there are questions about sustainability and whether he can produce that without being glued to Pacioretty/Radulov. Dale Weise would produce at 40 points when paired with Pacioretty, we still thought of him as a 3rd liner though.

I've said it before in this thread, if Danault can repeat his 40 points without being used with two elite players then he'll have solidified himself as a legitimate top-6 guy. I'm on the fence as to whether he will or not.

Danault's 16/17 production breakdown:

Pacioretty-Danault-Radulov 37GP 16P .43 ppg

Pacioretty-Danault-Gallagher 8GP 5P .62 ppg

Pacioretty-Danault-Shaw 5GP 3P .60 ppg

Lehkonen-Danault-Shaw 8GP 6P .75 ppg

Danault-Mitchell-Flynn 13GP 6P .46 ppg

 

[MXD]

Yes, but there are questions about sustainability and whether he can produce that without being glued to Pacioretty/Radulov. Dale Weise would produce at 40 points when paired with Pacioretty, we still thought of him as a 3rd liner though.

I've said it before in this thread, if Danault can repeat his 40 points without being used with two elite players then he'll have solidified himself as a legitimate top-6 guy. I'm on the fence as to whether he will or not.

Reasonable.

Still, you'll agree with me that asking Danault to repeat his 40 points-despite-barely-any-PP performance without playing with Top-6ers is basically setting him up to fail to meet expectations, due to unresonable expectations to begin with.

And then you'll tell me that there's a gap between "Elite players" and "Non Top-6ers", and you'll probably be right, too.

 

[Scriptor]

Yeah but the MB defenders are in such a minority. Especially the ones on this site who are as staunch as you say. You can count them on two hands. I don't see why many people seem like the two warring factions are on equal footing whenever people bring up MB detractors. The overwhelming majority on this site are pretty rabidly anti-MB and it shows in the discourse. Anyone with a positive opinion on something get crushed and have their sanity questioned. Just because a few fight back doesn't mean that the two sides are equal enough to mention 'it goes both ways' like it's really a fair fight lol.

Of course people are allowed to have dissenting views but criticizing that trade for us just sounds like one is drowning in groupthink from a board that overwhelmingly hates it's GM. Which again isn't a crime and like I said I can see why. I'm not thrilled with him myself. Drouin has shown way more than Sergachev. Higher pedigree and has just actually flat out proven more. Sergachev has many question marks and so does Drouin but base line you're going to get a top 6 guy even if he doesn't improve. Could possibly be a gamebreaker. Sergachev is still very much a wild card and could likely develop long after our so called window. He could end up being better than Drouin but right now this looks like a big win.

Maybe not a big win, but definitely not a loss or a dumb move by the GM, as some would suggest. That game-breaking quality that Drouin does have can lift a team and make them believe in themselves. If it can give us that quality of scoring one more to break the opponent's back instead of keeping it so tight a game that they think they still have a chance, it will work wonders for the success of this team.

Duchene has that quality as well, despite the perceived weaknesses some think that he has, especially on the defensive spectrum of the game.

Montreal really needs a Bobby Smith type of #1C again. Nothing league shattering, but definitely a #1C you could depend on to keep the team going.

 

[MXD]

Nothing I've seen from him screams offensive potential, not in the AHL or NHL.

Desharnais was largely recognized for playing out of his chair while playing with the teams best wingers and he still managed to score 60 points. Best Danault could do was 40pts? Take away best wingers and PP and he'll be down to 30 if that.

So, if you play Danault with non-top-6-ers giving him non Top-6 icetime he'll end up with production that's straight in line with a non-top-6er?

That's... wow. Just amazing.

Not sure what you mean to be honest. I think 50+ points is possible, I just don't see how he's already a #2 C based of last season.

Lars Eller at the same age put up 30 points in 46 games with low amount of PP time. Lot of people, including myself, thought he is going to trend up from there. Desharnais got 60 points in his first full season and never came close to it again. I think it's fair to want to see how 17/18 goes before crowning Danault as a true #2 C. I think Byron is a 3rd liner right now too until he proves in 17/18 he can be a 20+goal / ~45 point guy without PP time.

It's not a easy feat to be top 6 C in Montreal market.

Nothing objectionnable with what you wrote. That makes lots of sense actually. And I don't see any point in crowning any of our centers in definite slots, save maybe for Torrey Mitchell.

Still... My point was mostly : If Danault gets to 50 pts, without significant PP opportunities and production... That's a legit 5-on-5 1st center. We aren't in 2nd C territory, at all.

 

[Wats]

Nothing objectionnable with what you wrote. That makes lots of sense actually. And I don't see any point in crowning any of our centers in definite slots, save maybe for Torrey Mitchell.

Still... My point was mostly : If Danault gets to 50 pts, without significant PP opportunities and production... That's a legit 5-on-5 1st center. We aren't in 2nd C territory, at all.

Maybe. There are not many examples of that type of player but it interestingly describes Kevin Hayes 49 points in 76 games last season. He had 7 SH points and 7 PP points. If Danault can do that, I'd be thrilled.

 

[Brainiac]

Montreal Canadiens forward Phillip Danault had great first full season in the league. He put up 13 goals and 40 points while showing that he could play with the team’s top forwards. Regardless, many Habs fans claim that he can’t be more than a third line centre.

http://lastwordonhockey.com/2017/08/11/phillip-danault-second-liner/

Nope. He's got 3rd line center written all over him.

 

[Belial]

Nope. He's got 3rd line center written all over him.

How many 3rd line centers can you name me that were able to get 37 points at EV this season?

 

[Sorinth]

Yeah but the MB defenders are in such a minority. Especially the ones on this site who are as staunch as you say. You can count them on two hands. I don't see why many people seem like the two warring factions are on equal footing whenever people bring up MB detractors. The overwhelming majority on this site are pretty rabidly anti-MB and it shows in the discourse. Anyone with a positive opinion on something get crushed and have their sanity questioned. Just because a few fight back doesn't mean that the two sides are equal enough to mention 'it goes both ways' like it's really a fair fight lol.

Of course people are allowed to have dissenting views but criticizing that trade for us just sounds like one is drowning in groupthink from a board that overwhelmingly hates it's GM. Which again isn't a crime and like I said I can see why. I'm not thrilled with him myself. Drouin has shown way more than Sergachev. Higher pedigree and has just actually flat out proven more. Sergachev has many question marks and so does Drouin but base line you're going to get a top 6 guy even if he doesn't improve. Could possibly be a gamebreaker. Sergachev is still very much a wild card and could likely develop long after our so called window. He could end up being better than Drouin but right now this looks like a big win.

Personally I like the Drouin trade, but I can certainly see why people have concerns about him. His ES production hasn't increased in 3 years, his breakout came purely from the PP. He's a headcase. He's going to be propped up by the French media because he's the great French hope which will likely get to his head.

Yet you're dismissing these dissenting opinions because most posters are apparently anti-MB. Well guess what there are also a lot of very valid reasons for people to be anti-MB, he's incompetent. It doesn't change the fact that he's on occasion made a good move, but it's also not that surpising that on a 1 for 1 trade there will be people for/against it. The players are obviously close enough in value otherwise they wouldn't have been traded for each other.

 

[WhiskeySeven*]

If he can get 40 points in his first full season, hopefully he can grow and build off that.

He's 24. He's not 19.

Stop thinking it's a virtue that he had his first full season at 24, it's not whatsoever.

Besides, he dried up toward the end of the season and was brutally bad in the playoffs.

We all want BargainBin's non-acquisition of centres to work out. Projecting success on Danault isn't the way.

 

[Sorinth]

How many 3rd line centers can you name me that were able to get 37 points at EV this season?

Well not that long ago Eller had 25 ESP in 46 games which works out to 45 over 82 games. Yet not many are willing to say he's more then a 3rd line center.