Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: Dr Strangedubas "Tankination" is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face."

[Empoleon8771]

And by the way, the same thing is going to happen to Bunting next year because it's just not realistic that he's going to have the off-the-puck impact he has had in a short sample this year over a full sample size next year. Bunting will almost definitely finish with around 50 points next year but be notably less impactful than he was to end this season, just because it's really difficult for players to have that kind of impact over a full season.

That's the issue I have with just saying "replace Smith and Rakell with guys who offer more off the puck". While I fully agree in theory, it's at best a coin flip for whether you'll actually get that "off the puck" impact from any player you'd acquire. Carolina thought they were getting that with Bunting, but he ended up a dud there. The Penguins thought they were getting that with Acciari, but he has been a dud here so far.

Well, regardless of how you feel or not about Zucker, I don't think it's terribly out of the question to find someone who can be useful away from the puck and produce at a 30 point pace. Hell, that's basically what Lars Eller is doing, and he's doing that while being asked to defend.

Smith and Rakell just don't do anything when they aren't scoring and too often they aren't scoring. We either need more scoring or need to replace them with guys who provide some use when they aren't scoring goals.

To the level where you're sacrificing 15+ points in production with that impact? I would absolutely question how easily this team can do that. Rakell doesn't offer much beyond his scoring, but he's not hurting the team away from the puck either. A player needs to have a significant and consistent impact away from the puck to make up for that level of production difference, and it's incredibly difficult to find players who actually do that.

I think the Penguins have only had 3 wingers in the last decade that had a consistent and notable off-the-puck impact while with the Penguins: Kunitz, Hornqvist and Tanev. And with Tanev, they only had him for 2 years.

 

[Sideline]

My problem with Rakell and Smith is they are too slow and not gritty. They both have good hockey sense, but Sid and Geno have enough hockey sense to be the only "thinkers" on a line. DOC and Dupuis types bust open lanes for Sid to thread passes through. A Malone or Talbot goes and gets pucks for Geno to carry and rip on net or feed to a Neal/Sykora type.

Basically they don't make space for the guys that run this team and they aren't good enough to create on their own.

 

[Empoleon8771]

My problem with Rakell and Smith is they are too slow and not gritty. They both have good hockey sense, but Sid and Geno have enough hockey sense to be the only "thinkers" on a line. DOC and Dupuis types bust open lanes for Sid to thread passes through. A Malone or Talbot goes and gets pucks for Geno to carry and rip on net or feed to a Neal/Sykora type.

Basically they don't make space for the guys that run this team and they aren't good enough to create on their own.

I can't believe I'm seriously reading a Penguins fan arguing this.

Do people not remember how Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis did in the playoffs? Do people not remember how fans wanted the Penguins to get some wingers with actual talent and playmaking ability to help ease the burden off of Crosby and Malkin? This was talked about when Crosby and Malkin were in their primes about how they needed help.

To see someone is now saying that Crosby and Malkin have enough hockey sense to be the only "thinkers" on a line, when they're far worse than what they were in their primes when everyone said they needed more playmaking help, is absolutely bizarre. I know this team is way too soft, but the overcorrection to "they should only surround Crosby and Malkin with speedy and gritty forechecking types" is far too big of a jump in the other direction.

 

[DearDiary]

My problem with Rakell and Smith is they are too slow and not gritty. They both have good hockey sense, but Sid and Geno have enough hockey sense to be the only "thinkers" on a line. DOC and Dupuis types bust open lanes for Sid to thread passes through. A Malone or Talbot goes and gets pucks for Geno to carry and rip on net or feed to a Neal/Sykora type.

Basically they don't make space for the guys that run this team and they aren't good enough to create on their own.

Seems like you need to rewatch the conference finals where the Pens got swept by the Bruins. Then realize that Crosby/Malkin are much worse since then.

 

[Sideline]

Seems like you need to rewatch the conference finals where the Pens got swept by the Bruins. Then realize that Crosby/Malkin are much worse since then.

I can't believe I'm seriously reading a Penguins fan arguing this.

Do people not remember how Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis did in the playoffs? Do people not remember how fans wanted the Penguins to get some wingers with actual talent and playmaking ability to help ease the burden off of Crosby and Malkin? This was talked about when Crosby and Malkin were in their primes about how they needed help.

To see someone is now saying that Crosby and Malkin have enough hockey sense to be the only "thinkers" on a line, when they're far worse than what they were in their primes when everyone said they needed more playmaking help, is absolutely bizarre. I know this team is way too soft, but the overcorrection to "they should only surround Crosby and Malkin with speedy and gritty forechecking types" is far too big of a jump in the other direction.

They brought in Kessel and then promptly won two Cups with Phil running his own line.

Obviously I would take a Mitch Marner or William Nylander over a Tyler Bertuzzi or Drake Batherson, but we're shopping in the 5MM cap hit range. The replacements for Smith and Rakell will be lacking somewhere. I want to prioritize speed and puck retrieval over softer or slower guy with good vision and hands.

 

[SEALBound]

I can't believe I'm seriously reading a Penguins fan arguing this.

Do people not remember how Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis did in the playoffs? Do people not remember how fans wanted the Penguins to get some wingers with actual talent and playmaking ability to help ease the burden off of Crosby and Malkin? This was talked about when Crosby and Malkin were in their primes about how they needed help.

To see someone is now saying that Crosby and Malkin have enough hockey sense to be the only "thinkers" on a line, when they're far worse than what they were in their primes when everyone said they needed more playmaking help, is absolutely bizarre. I know this team is way too soft, but the overcorrection to "they should only surround Crosby and Malkin with speedy and gritty forechecking types" is far too big of a jump in the other direction.

Strangely enough, the only playoffs we really saw Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis was 2013. But yeah, more to your point, they can't the only threats on their line anymore otherwise you get the 2010 Montreal approach of "Well let's double team Sid and make the likes of Kunitz and Bill Guerin win the series for them..." which has shown to work over and over and over again until they had the depth to roll three scoring lines with an impact player on each (2016).

I'm probably okay with DOC-Sid-Rust and Bunting-Malkin-Rakell as the top 6 but that has to be met with a third line that can pick up scoring slack. That can't be the top 6 with two bottom six likes like we have now.

 

[Ulf5]

Subtract Eller/Carter, add McCann at $5m per.

E-Rod signed for 2million last year on a one year deal. I'm sure the Pens could have locked him up for like 3 years at 1.5 or something of that nature, unless E-Rod was gonna try to bet on himself for a big contract. But iirc he signed very late with the Avs so the market wasn't there for him. if the Pens come at him late in that process and say hey we'll do two or three years at 1.5 per, I bet he does it.

Ifs and buts etc though

Rumor was his agent turned down 3 years, $10.5 million early in free agency. He later fired his agent.
I'm guessing accepting the 1 year Avs offer was to boost his stats for the next contract. Which seems to have worked out.

 

[Empoleon8771]

They brought in Kessel and then promptly won two Cups with Phil running his own line.

Obviously I would take a Mitch Marner or William Nylander over a Tyler Bertuzzi or Drake Batherson, but we're shopping in the 5MM cap hit range. The replacements for Smith and Rakell will be lacking somewhere. I want to prioritize speed and puck retrieval over softer or slower guy with good vision and hands.

I think there's a balance to be had here that has both of those guys. That's why I like Bunting-Malkin-Rakell on paper, Bunting can be the physical forechecking guy while Rakell can be the sniper. My concern there is Rakell and Malkin meshing, but that line has the pieces it needs to be good.

This team needs more guys like Bunting, but I don't think getting rid of all of their playmaking/talented wingers to add more forechecking/speedsters wingers is the appropriate way to do that. I'd do that with Smith and maybe Puustinen depending on who would be replacing him, but I'd want a better version of Rakell if I'm getting rid of Rakell.

Just as an example, this is the kind of forward lineup I'd be shooting for next year:

O'Connor-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
DeBrusk-Wennberg-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

If DeBrusk ends up fitting well here and bounces back into 25+ goal scorer form, feel free to bump him up to L1 and O'Connor down to L3.

 

[cygnus47]

Strangely enough, the only playoffs we really saw Kunitz-Sid-Dupuis was 2013. But yeah, more to your point, they can't the only threats on their line anymore otherwise you get the 2010 Montreal approach of "Well let's double team Sid and make the likes of Kunitz and Bill Guerin win the series for them..." which has shown to work over and over and over again until they had the depth to roll three scoring lines with an impact player on each (2016).

I'm probably okay with DOC-Sid-Rust and Bunting-Malkin-Rakell as the top 6 but that has to be met with a third line that can pick up scoring slack. That can't be the top 6 with two bottom six likes like we have now.

Extremely short memories here huh. We just had Sid’s best winger traded and he was nothing like what people are asking for. All brains, short and skinny with ok speed and good hands. If people want us to somehow compete with the old Sid and Geno hold their own with scraps model, we’d need someone of the calibre of like ...Marner on the 3rd line to make up for the production. That's probably the least likely scenario of all of the ones that have come up.

We're not fully tanking until 2/3 of Sid/Geno/Letang hang them up. They saved this franchise and they've won 3 cups, they have full NMCs. That's just reality, and the NHL is just not the place where you burn your all-timers even if it's not the optimal course back to contention.

I'm fully onboard with nuking the staff and making the focus getting young guys in to the lineup and up to NHL speed and just seeing what happens. If it goes bad it goes bad, but enough of the signing useless vets and trying to big brain our way out of it. Get rid of Smith, Nieto, Acciari, do our best to get out from under Graves, don't re-sign any of the old dudes or Harkins. Re-sign biig puus and get Poulin, Pono in the lineup and maybe look for a free agent winger to replace Smith.

Nuking the staff would have the biggest impact, but I don't think it's a coincidence that we've picked up the most points when our team is the youngest it's been all year.

 

[Gurglesons]

Extremely short memories here huh. We just had Sid’s best winger traded and he was nothing like what people are asking for. All brains, short and skinny with ok speed and good hands. If people want us to somehow compete with the old Sid and Geno hold their own with scraps model, we’d need someone of the calibre of like ...Marner on the 3rd line to make up for the production. That's probably the least likely scenario of all of the ones that have come up.

We're not fully tanking until 2/3 of Sid/Geno/Letang hang them up. They saved this franchise and they've won 3 cups, they have full NMCs. That's just reality, and the NHL is just not the place where you burn your all-timers even if it's not the optimal course back to contention.

I'm fully onboard with nuking the staff and making the focus getting young guys in to the lineup and up to NHL speed and just seeing what happens. If it goes bad it goes bad, but enough of the signing useless vets and trying to big brain our way out of it. Get rid of Smith, Nieto, Acciari, do our best to get out from under Graves, don't re-sign any of the old dudes or Harkins. Re-sign biig puus and get Poulin, Pono in the lineup and maybe look for a free agent winger to replace Smith.

Nuking the staff would have the biggest impact, but I don't think it's a coincidence that we've picked up the most points when our team is the youngest it's been all year.

Poulin is 100% gone.

Not a chance they give him a QO with the way they utilized him this year.

 

[molon labe]

I hope Jarry is someone a lot of teams look at with the cap going up and in need of someone who can start games.

Please.

Also just realized we still have 2 years of Jack Johnson against the cap.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think the Penguins have only had 3 wingers in the last decade that had a consistent and notable off-the-puck impact while with the Penguins: Kunitz, Hornqvist and Tanev. And with Tanev, they only had him for 2 years.

Interestingly enough, they have brought in numerous players who had previously played that kind of game elsewhere, but you're right. This team doesn't do much way from the puck, largely by design, IMO.

 

[canadianguy77]

Harkins, Simon, Zach Aston Reese, Ruhwedel. The dude fell head over heels in love with these guys. I’m not even talking about over the hill vets like JC. At least at one time, he was a damn good player on a team that won multiple cups.

These guys are absolute nobodies. And he sacrificed the playing time/roles of multiple youngsters, (some with decent pedigrees) for these clowns. For years.

Think of the talent they’ve shipped out so these guys were allowed to play roles. Simon and ZAR got more time with Crosby than Jared Mcann did. By a lot. That in itself is a fireable offense and it was years ago, and his decisions haven’t gotten better with time.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Yeah, but he plays nothing like Stevens did, that's my larger point. Prior to the Pilon hit, Stevens wasn't just a mucker, he legitimately had much higher offensive instincts than DOC does, not to mention his physical presence, and not just with Mario. He carried that top line with Cullen in 1990 while Lemiuex was out most of the year.

I mean, just watch how Stevens knows where to be in the play on those classic goals. You don't see DOC doing anything similar. Whether it's because he's on a tight leash or he doesn't have those instincts, I don't know. But DOC reminds me far more of a bigger Dupuis or a young Rust than any power forward.

But believe you me, nothing would make me happier to see DOC suddenly become a power forward, but I just do not see it in how the kid plays the game.

In the land of the blind, the 1 eyed person is king.

DOC on it's face is certainly not a power forward. But relative to this current roster, yup he's masquerading as a Power Forward. You can include Bunting on that list as well.

But this discussion is missing the entire point: line/roster construction is all about fit vs. raw production.

Let's take L1 for example:
Rust-Sid-Jake was all the rage, but they were a crater defensively. Why? Because once that line lost possession in the offensive zone, they were never getting it back bc no one on that line wanted to aggressively forecheck to get it back. I despised that line bc they were all offense and it was "put all your eggs in 1 basket"

Now that Sully's toy (Jake) has been removed we get a different-looking L1 that is much more balanced and effective.

Jake-Sid-DOC could have worked. Rust-Sid-DOC works too. So that begs the question, if the current iteration of DOC-Sid-Rust is fine, why in the f*** didn't Geno ever get Jake back?

It's a rhetorical question we all know the answer to and could have resulted in 2 more wins for this team to have a more balanced approach.

Anyway, back to my manifesto about line construction, they have the appropriate duos of Sid/DOC and Geno/Bunting ( Sully will see this differently and believe Sid/Rust are the inseparable combo). But you need a guy for both Sid and Geno to create that space. Call them a PF or whatever you want, but the gist is they create needed space for these 2 C's. The question becomes: who is the appropriate 3rd wheel for Geno? I would have really liked to see Puss-Geno-Bunting but we were in the midst of a winning streak.

Doing that would create a theoretical L3 of Smith-Eller-Rak, to me that's a pretty solid line. Smith and Rak can move up the lineup. But I realize that running back with the same top 9 with just different configurations isn't sexy

 

[HandshakeLine]

It is maddening because on paper DOC is exactly what Sid likes on his line and has had success with. It might even accelerate DOC's further development too.

But I firmly expect DOC to be back on L3 at the start of next year because I think the organization thinks it's a vet's spot, so DOC is just there temporarily until a replacement is found.

Also, I don't want to hear anyone compare anyone to Artie unless they can pot 40 and drop the gloves. As Earl Mann said, "he was a warhorse... with hands of silk."

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It is maddening because on paper DOC is exactly what Sid likes on his line and has had success with. It might even accelerate DOC's further development too.

But I firmly expect DOC to be back on L3 at the start of next year because I think the organization thinks it's a vet's spot, so DOC is just there temporarily until a replacement is found.

Also, I don't want to hear anyone compare anyone to Artie unless they can pot 40 and drop the gloves. As Earl Mann said, "he was a warhorse... with hands of silk."

He could have went down as the best PF in the game. That's not hyperbole. Dude was that good

 

[molon labe]

I think there's a balance to be had here that has both of those guys. That's why I like Bunting-Malkin-Rakell on paper, Bunting can be the physical forechecking guy while Rakell can be the sniper. My concern there is Rakell and Malkin meshing, but that line has the pieces it needs to be good.

This team needs more guys like Bunting, but I don't think getting rid of all of their playmaking/talented wingers to add more forechecking/speedsters wingers is the appropriate way to do that. I'd do that with Smith and maybe Puustinen depending on who would be replacing him, but I'd want a better version of Rakell if I'm getting rid of Rakell.

Just as an example, this is the kind of forward lineup I'd be shooting for next year:

O'Connor-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
DeBrusk-Wennberg-Puustinen
Poulin-Eller-Acciari

If DeBrusk ends up fitting well here and bounces back into 25+ goal scorer form, feel free to bump him up to L1 and O'Connor down to L3.

Rakell could absolutely bounce back here under the right system.

Smith is a damn LOSER who looks like he gave all of .05 F's all season long on this team. Like he never wanted to be here. I'm surprised the game against Nashville he wasn't called out all that much for what seemed to be a half dozen horrendous turnovers.

Anyway, I think we agree on reshaping the system with a few exceptions. I want a firesale mostly because I grew tired of the faces on this team. From your list above:

- I hate DOC in the top 6. Just do. I know there's a couple folks here that don't mind it but he's a bottom 6er through and through.
- I don't want Geno carrying the mail as 2C anymore. We can't rely on 2C pulling 13 minutes a game, he doesn't have the legs, and his abilities don't generate all that much offense anymore to balance the lineup.
- Not sold on Wennberg
- Poulin I'd imagine is not here but anything like him should be fine with Eller as a 4C

* I'd also add Hagelin and Bonino to your list of guys who brought 'something' away from the puck. They were good in all situations and I never thought to myself "Damn, we're in the offensive/defensive zone with those guys" - like we do with every single line NOT line 1 currently.


My priority list immediately:
1. Fire the coaches. The entire lot. Scorched earth.
2. Work on shipping out Jarry
3a. Find an impact top 6 F (which could be the 2C below)
3b. Find an impact 2C / 3C (but more of a 2C)

Further into Summer:
- Trade Letang if you cannot find another MP
- Smith gone if he isn't involved in a deal above
- Find your tandem goalie to go with Ned
- Find someone other than Bunting to get into the dirty areas
*** Bonus to find a suitor for Graves.

So yeah it's quite a lot to get going even if you take away half of that. I mention Letang because POJ isn't remotely close to Pettersson and you cannot run it back with Letang/Karlsson again without that anchor on the pair. I'm not dying on that hill but I just don't see how that works. You can't bring in a bunch of defensive forwards (what I think they did this year) to make up their shortcomings because our offense is dried the F up. We need actual defense on the backend and maybe a system helps with that but man oh man was watching those two quite brutal this year even when they were scoring.

 

[molon labe]

East:
- Columbus
- Montreal
- Ottawa
- NJD
- Buffalo
- Detroit

West:
- San Jose
- Chicago
- Anaheim
- Arizona
- Seattle
- Calgary
- Minny
- St Lous

Those are teams that are out and would deal with the Pens. Silver lining - the only team omitted was Philly. Many of those teams we have trade history with. So, even excluding the 8 clubs set to be eliminated in the next two weeks, we have a LOT of potential trade partners.

Jarry - 12 team NTC

Graves - 12 team NTC
Pettersson - 8 team NTC
Letang - Full NMC
Karlsson - Full NMC

Smith - 8 team NTC
Rakell - 8 team NTC
Rust - Full NMC
Acciari - 8 team NTC
Eller - No trade protections
Nieto - No trade protections

Jarry could be a deal of his own. Maybe one of the depth pieces with no trade protections as cap collateral. Letang/Karlsson would be interesting. Not sure if they'd be in a bigger trade or by themselves (though I doubt Letang gets moved even if it makes sense to do so). Rust probably isn't going anywhere.... I think it really boils down to coaching, goalie, Smith/Rakell. Even if it should be a lot more I just don't see Dubas giving a shit considering he hasn't to this point.

 

[molon labe]

If we can dump Jarry...

I wonder about Knight, Cal Peterson, or even offer-sheeting Carter Hart. Matt Murray still floating around and is an UFA who might take league minimum just to be given a chance - but that would have to be as option 3. I think a Knight/Ned combo would be nice tbh.

I do not for any reason think they should target the mythical 60 game guy though. That goalie doesn't exist anymore. Go tandem. Hell, maybe roll with 3. But I see no reason Ned can't start 40 games for this club under the right system.

 

[eXile3]

Yeah I can’t imagine a ton of teams being interested in Jarry. I think we’re stuck with him. Graves too. Every team has bad contracts but Dubas looks to be interested in collecting them.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

If we can dump Jarry...

I wonder about Knight, Cal Peterson, or even offer-sheeting Carter Hart. Matt Murray still floating around and is an UFA who might take league minimum just to be given a chance - but that would have to be as option 3. I think a Knight/Ned combo would be nice tbh.

I do not for any reason think they should target the mythical 60 game guy though. That goalie doesn't exist anymore. Go tandem. Hell, maybe roll with 3. But I see no reason Ned can't start 40 games for this club under the right system.

Am I out to lunch or is Hart just waiting to go to prison

 

[molon labe]

Am I out to lunch or is Hart just waiting to go to prison

Forgot about that.

Even more reason to.

Change the meaning of 'right way' and go the University of Miami route.

 

[chethejet]

Pens need to jettison Smith at the draft day table. Free up 4 million and retain 1 I am not thinkng Jarry has to be moved unless the deal makes sense. goalies on a 4 year deal at just over 4 million is not a killer here. Next up is coaching. Get a better d coach. Get a PP guy to structure a puck moving PP vs let the stars make a splash play. Lastly take away the plugs Sullivan prefers in his system that rewards mediocre play and is not physical or strong enough on the hard areas. Pens just are to small to slow and lack the 4rh line play that brings the elements of size. grit and hammering the D deep in their zone.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I would be shocked if they don't qualify Poulin. His QO is only 874k and he can easily be buried in the minors at that cost.

 

[Gurglesons]

I would be shocked if they don't qualify Poulin. His QO is only 874k and he can easily be buried in the minors at that cost.

He isn’t waiver exempt anymore.