Salary Cap: Pens Salary Cap Thread: Dr Strangedubas "Tankination" is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous communist plot we have ever had to face."

[HandshakeLine]

And for the record (to be absolutely clear) I would love if we jettison'd Smith and kept DOC in the top 6, Sid loves his Dupius-style players.

 

[Andy99]

At this point I am assuming the past month or so has ensured Sullivan's job security - much to my chagrin - but they've gotta fire Rierden at minimum, right? Someone else needs to be in charge of this power play. It is the reason the Pens aren't comfortably in a playoff spot right now. It doesn't matter who they sign if they can't score with the man advantage; they'll just keep sucking.

People for some reason dont seem to under that Reirden’s and Velluci’s contracts EXPIRE after the season so they won’t need to be fired…they just won’t be rehired lol

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I love OC but prefer him as a a buzzsaw 3rd line forechecker that can slide up the lineup in case of injuries or performance.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I could see him hitting 20 and 20 though in the right usage.

Yeah, for sure. I just don't trust this staff to give him the right usage.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

People for some reason dont seem to under that Reirden’s and Velluci’s contracts EXPIRE after the season so they won’t need to be fired…they just won’t be rehired lol

How certain are we that FSG won't just keep them around?

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I'm not saying it as a knock on DOC. But I also don't think he puts up 33 points on any serious contender. He's a top 9 guy that we over rely on because the our cupboards are so bare and our wingers are underwhelming, save Bunting (who will probably fall off in the usual Pens pattern).

I think we should definitely sign him and I much prefer seeing him in the top 6 other than Smith or Rackell or whomever but people keep hoping for him to make this huge breakout and... it's just not going to happen, I think.

Have to recognize that DOC has gotten a bump due to Jake's departure. The trope "someone has to score the points" applies here.

Not saying DOC is a bad player, but I want the nonsense of "how are we going to replace Jake's production?" addressed now. Bc the answer is a money ball approach and DOC is benefitting from being on L1.

I have further thoughts on this, but I'm sure most people don't want to read my manifesto lol

 

[The Old Master]

At this point I am assuming the past month or so has ensured Sullivan's job security - much to my chagrin - but they've gotta fire Rierden at minimum, right? Someone else needs to be in charge of this power play. It is the reason the Pens aren't comfortably in a playoff spot right now. It doesn't matter who they sign if they can't score with the man advantage; they'll just keep sucking.

if I remember right, they don't even practice the pp. so if that's true you can't blame the guy that is supposed to coach it. but you can blame the guy that runs the practice.

 

[HandshakeLine]

How certain are we that FSG won't just keep them around?

That IS the million dollar question.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

if I remember right, they don't even practice the pp. so if that's true you can't blame the guy that is supposed to coach it. but you can blame the guy that runs the practice.

Nope, according to some, Sully isn't to blame. It's Sid and Malkin that are the problems. Not just on the PP, but their overall standings too.

Sullivan just can't catch a break. Instead of having 5 HOF players at his disposal, maybe we need to bump up that number to 10. But I bet he'd probably still manage to miss the playoffs with that roster too

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

He's 25 already, will be 26 in June. I know players take time to develop, but realistically, most players also don't do huge breakout years around 26-28 years old. It's possible he'll be an exception or that we'll be such a weak team that he can get roles here he wouldn't have elsewhere, but odds are really against him suddenly putting it all together over the offseason.

True, power forwards don't figure it out 18-19, probably 22-24. So yeah, DOC is late. I remember Kevin Steven took a while to figure it out. Yeah, weak teams tend to make marginal players look better.

I would be pretty happy with DOC being part of an effective young 3rd line, and pulling in 20/20.

 

[Andy99]

How certain are we that FSG won't just keep them around?

Not certain at all. But both their contracts are up as of July 1

 

[Darren McCord]

No, not at all. Just kind of skeptical that he's going to go much higher than 33 points. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I'm just not seeing the whole 50-point 25/25 player that people claim is lurking in DOC.

Also, lol, pking is for suckas.

I mean he has 12 pts in his last 17. 7g 5a.

He is going to be 26. I see no reason to think he couldn't peak at 25/25. I think he has a short peak maybe 2-3 years.

Again if you keep sullivan DOC probable drops to line 4 and they sign like Patches for the top six because hes a good old vet from Connecticut

 

[HandshakeLine]

True, power forwards don't figure it out 18-19, probably 22-24. So yeah, DOC is late. I remember Kevin Steven took a while to figure it out. Yeah, weak teams tend to make marginal players look better.

I would be pretty happy with DOC being part of an effective young 3rd line, and pulling in 20/20.

I wish DOC was a powerforward but what on earth makes you think his game is at all remotely like Artie's?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't mind if O'Connor plays with Crosby going forward, I would imagine he'd be around a 15-20 goal, 40-45 point player with Crosby over a full year. The main benefit for putting him there though is that you can go splurge on either a RWer for Malkin or just bottom-6 help in general. Crosby can still make a great top line with O'Connor and Rust on his wings, spending more money than that on Crosby's wings is a misallocation of money IMO.

With that being said, I'm not super worried about their top-9 going forward. I don't hate the top-9 they currently have and don't see any "must improve" spots. The 4th line sucks but just getting rid of Carter should dramatically help it. The only top-9 moves I'd advocate for this year are:

-Trading Smith and trying to sign an energy type of LW for the 3rd line (someone like Foegele)
-Signing a 3C to push Eller to 4C (someone like Wennberg)
-Trading Rakell and trying to sign a top of the line RW to play with Malkin (someone like Reinhart)

The first two are feasible but the last one is wildly unrealistic.

 

[Pancakes]

With that being said, I'm not super worried about their top-9 going forward. I don't hate the top-9 they currently have and don't see any "must improve" spots.

I am. Smith sucks and is gonna be a year older and slower next year. Rakell sucks and the same applies to him. Eller is going to be an old man next year so we'll see if he can even keep this up. And while I like Puusy let's be honest he only has four goals on the season and is going to need a whole lot more production moving forward for me to consider him a viable top 9 option. At least he's young and might figure it out if given a chance.

I'm fine with DOC/Rust/Bunting and I expect they'll all play fine, but I'm very worried about the other half of the top 9.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

I wish DOC was a powerforward but what on earth makes you think his game is at all remotely like Artie's?

Different era, but...

DOC 6'3" 200lbs
Willingness to go bang around the front of the net, drive the net, go hard into the corners, forecheck, decent hands around the net, etc.

In today's game, you really don't need to be as strong around the net, because you don't get crosschecked/hooked to death anymore.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I am. Smith sucks and is gonna be a year older and slower next year. Rakell sucks and the same applies to him. Eller is going to be an old man next year so we'll see if he can even keep this up. And while I like Puusy let's be honest he only has four goals on the season and is going to need a whole lot more production moving forward for me to consider him a viable top 9 option. At least he's young and might figure it out if given a chance.

I'm fine with DOC/Rust/Bunting and I expect they'll all play fine, but I'm very worried about the other half of the top 9.

If you think Smith and Rakell suck for the roles they play, I'm willing to bet that no one they can possibly acquire to fill those roles would be acceptable to you.

Am I all that crazy about those two? Not really, especially not Smith. But I have a hard time saying that two guys that should give you 40-50 points next year are "must improve" spots. Even with Smith and Rakell not having good years, they're still both on pace for roughly 45 points without any notable powerplay production.

I'd like to replace Smith because he's been a poor fit here, and I'd entertain replacing Rakell because I don't like how he fits with Malkin. But those "replacements" are extremely likely going to just be lateral moves. Replacing Smith on the 3rd line will result in them getting like Warren Foegele to replace him, which is a move I'd be good with but isn't going to make that big of a difference.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

If you think Smith and Rakell suck for the roles they play, I'm willing to bet that no one they can possibly acquire to fill those roles would be acceptable to you.

Am I all that crazy about those two? Not really, especially not Smith. But I have a hard time saying that two guys that should give you 40-50 points next year are "must improve" spots. Even with Smith and Rakell not having good years, they're still both on pace for roughly 45 points without any notable powerplay production.

I'd like to replace Smith because he's been a poor fit here, and I'd entertain replacing Rakell because I don't like how he fits with Malkin. But those "replacements" are extremely likely going to just be lateral moves. Replacing Smith on the 3rd line will result in them getting like Warren Foegele to replace him, which is a move I'd be good with but isn't going to make that big of a difference.

Agreed. Though I would look to trade Smith if they have an agreement with someone else they feel fits better.

Just for reference. Here is the active list for UFA players with around the same production or above.

 

[Pancakes]

If you think Smith and Rakell suck for the roles they play, I'm willing to bet that no one they can possibly acquire to fill those roles would be acceptable to you.

Am I all that crazy about those two? Not really, especially not Smith. But I have a hard time saying that two guys that should give you 40-50 points next year are "must improve" spots. Even with Smith and Rakell not having good years, they're still both on pace for roughly 45 points without any notable powerplay production.

I'd like to replace Smith because he's been a poor fit here, and I'd entertain replacing Rakell because I don't like how he fits with Malkin. But those "replacements" are extremely likely going to just be lateral moves. Replacing Smith on the 3rd line will result in them getting like Warren Foegele to replace him, which is a move I'd be good with but isn't going to make that big of a difference.

It's not about the raw production for me with those guys. They do absolutely nothing to help control play while they're on the ice. They kill possessions by being slow and soft.

DOC produces at a similar rate to them but he does so much more with his forechecking and backchecking to affect play while on the ice.

That's my problem. We're too damned slow and soft in the top six and those two are a big part of it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Looking at that UFA list, I completely missed DeBrusk being a UFA this year. He'd absolutely be my #1 target if they're adding a LW to replace Smith. I didn't realize that he had really rounded out his game as he has gotten older, he's one of Boston's main PKers now and has been used in more of a defensive role with Boston this year.

It's not about the raw production for me with those guys. They do absolutely nothing to help control play while they're on the ice. They kill possessions by being slow and soft.

DOC produces at a similar rate to them but he does so much more with his forechecking and backchecking to affect play while on the ice.

That's my problem. We're too damned slow and soft in the top six and those two are a big part of it.

I don't disagree with this, but:

1. Rakell was never advertised to be that kind of player. He was always a pure offense complementary winger, he was never advertised as a play driver or someone who would have a notable impact as a forechecker.
2. Any player you'd realistically replace either of them with is just going to be the same caliber of player. Maybe you can find someone who's more of a speedy forechecker, but you're going to be sacrificing something (likely offensive upside, especially if you replace Rakell) by doing that.

I don't disagree with the suggestion you're making, I just think you're overstating how much of an impact it would have. Look back at guys like Hagelin and Zucker for the Penguins, they absolutely had their moments of being impact players with their speed and forechecking but they also had a lot of moments of being completely invisible as well.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Different era, but...

DOC 6'3" 200lbs
Willingness to go bang around the front of the net, drive the net, go hard into the corners, forecheck, decent hands around the net, etc.

In today's game, you really don't need to be as strong around the net, because you don't get crosschecked/hooked to death anymore.

Yeah, but he plays nothing like Stevens did, that's my larger point. Prior to the Pilon hit, Stevens wasn't just a mucker, he legitimately had much higher offensive instincts than DOC does, not to mention his physical presence, and not just with Mario. He carried that top line with Cullen in 1990 while Lemiuex was out most of the year.

I mean, just watch how Stevens knows where to be in the play on those classic goals. You don't see DOC doing anything similar. Whether it's because he's on a tight leash or he doesn't have those instincts, I don't know. But DOC reminds me far more of a bigger Dupuis or a young Rust than any power forward.

But believe you me, nothing would make me happier to see DOC suddenly become a power forward, but I just do not see it in how the kid plays the game.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't disagree with this, but:

1. Rakell was never advertised to be that kind of player. He was always a pure offense complementary winger, he was never advertised as a play driver or someone who would have a notable impact as a forechecker.
2. Any player you'd realistically replace either of them with is just going to be the same caliber of player. Maybe you can find someone who's more of a speedy forechecker, but you're going to be sacrificing something (likely offensive upside, especially if you replace Rakell) by doing that.

I don't disagree with the suggestion you're making, I just think you're overstating how much of an impact it would have. Look back at guys like Hagelin and Zucker for the Penguins, they absolutely had their moments of being impact players with their speed and forechecking but they also had a lot of moments of being completely invisible as well.

I just think if we're going to have guys who are essentially all-offense guys in Smith and Rakell then they need to actually produce otherwise I'm sure we can find other players in the NHL who can also produce in the 30-40 point range but provide more off the puck.

Like for Rakell and Smith to be acceptable as all offense and nothing else kinda guys they need to be producing more in the 50-60 point range and it doesn't seem like we're ever gonna get that again from them.

The example you used - Zucker - would have also produced at a 30-40 point pace while here. But he would have helped tremendously with his forechecking (if he could stay healthy ofc).

Right now Rakell and Smith's offensive "upside" is just that - upside. Because they aren't hitting it here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just think if we're going to have guys who are essentially all-offense guys in Smith and Rakell then they need to actually produce otherwise I'm sure we can find other players in the NHL who can also produce in the 30-40 point range but provide more off the puck.

Like for Rakell and Smith to be acceptable as all offense and nothing else kinda guys they need to be producing more in the 50-60 point range and it doesn't seem like we're ever gonna get that again from them.

The example you used - Zucker - would have also produced at a 30-40 point pace while here. But he would have helped tremendously with his forechecking (if he could stay healthy ofc).

Right now Rakell and Smith's offensive "upside" is just that - upside. Because they aren't hitting it here.

I think this is huge revisionist history with Zucker. Zucker was only "good" for the Penguins when he finally started producing, he was a wild disappointment in the first 2 full seasons with the Penguins. He only actually offered major value as a forechecker in his last year, which was also the year he produced like crazy. Hagelin was the same way, he was super effective at times but was also completely invisible for long stretches.

I think you're looking through rose-colored glasses for what those guys offered. Most of the time, those guys could only offer that significant impact through forechecking in spurts and would regularly go through droughts of being invisible. When those guys were having significant impacts, they were also producing a ton along with that significant impact.

 

[Pancakes]

I think this is huge revisionist history with Zucker. Zucker was only "good" for the Penguins when he finally started producing, he was a wild disappointment in the first 2 full seasons with the Penguins. He only actually offered major value as a forechecker in his last year, which was also the year he produced like crazy. Hagelin was the same way, he was super effective at times but was also completely invisible for long stretches.

I think you're looking through rose-colored glasses for what those guys offered. Most of the time, those guys could only offer that significant impact through forechecking in spurts and would regularly go through droughts of being invisible. When those guys were having significant impacts, they were also producing a ton along with that significant impact.

Well, regardless of how you feel or not about Zucker, I don't think it's terribly out of the question to find someone who can be useful away from the puck and produce at a 30 point pace. Hell, that's basically what Lars Eller is doing, and he's doing that while being asked to defend.

Smith and Rakell just don't do anything when they aren't scoring and too often they aren't scoring. We either need more scoring or need to replace them with guys who provide some use when they aren't scoring goals.

 

[Pens1566]

DOC is nothing like Stevens.

To be fair, no one now is really like Stevens. He was legitimately the best power forward in the league at a time when Tocchet and Neely still played. Prior to having his face re-arranged, that is.