Post-Game Talk: Pens 3, Panthers 2 (OT) - Kunitz Saves The Day

[NewAgeOutlaw]

That's a pretty **** argument, because I thought it was established that Crosby wanted Kunitz and Dupuis on his wings. Had he wanted Iginla, you'd have a point, but I'm pretty sure he was quite happy with playing with Kunitz and Dupuis.

Can you not read? I said I thought it was established that he wanted to stay with Kunitz and Dupuis, and after you said it wasn't because "why would Sid want to do that?", I responded with it's entirely possible and you just kept repeating "Why would Sid want that?". Your argument is no better than mine because we have absolutely no clue. I'm saying it's entirely possible. You're dismissing it because you can't fathom that Crosby thinks any differently than you do.



Who said anything about demanded? It's entirely possible that when Bylsma asked him if he wanted to play with Iginla, he said "I'd rather stay with Dupuis since what we have now is working". That's not demanding and you have no idea whether that's true or not.



-Implying we know anything about what Crosby thinks.

There you go again, just making more and more baseless assumptions based on what you want to think.



Apparently me saying "it's completely possible" is equivalent to me saying "that totally happened". Yawn. Your close-minded opinions are adorable.

It's funny that you accuse my argument of being completely wild speculation when your entire argument is just that. You have no clue whether Sid wanted Dupuis on his line over Iginla. You have absolutely nothing to support that Dupuis over Iginla wasn't influenced by Crosby. Is that me saying that it was Crosby's influence? No, I'm saying it's completely possible. You're in this reality where players don't have biases and don't enjoy stability. You're assuming players are robots. You're dismissing the entire possibility that KCD was Crosby's call with absolutely no support for it. Could it have been a Disco Dumbass decision? Of course. Could it have been Sid lobbying to Bylsma to keep that line together since it was producing? That also is a possibility. It was probably a combination of both to be honest, you're just dismissing the latter as anything possible for no other reason other than you don't agree with someone wanting Dupuis over Iginla.

It seems to me that you originally said that K-C-D stayed together because that's what Crosby wanted and now you are back tracking because you got called out for saying that.

I do not believe Sid is a robot, I merely refuse to believe that he would rather play with Pascal Dupuis than Jerome Iginla. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that Sid is so blinded by preference that he prefered to play with a clearly inferior player, hurting himself and the team in the process.

Just stop. I'm not close-minded because I choose not to believe what you are claiming. What you are claiming just doesn't make sense. You can act like you didn't claim it was Crosby's call to keep K-C-D together, but the reality is that is exactly what you meant with your original post.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Bennett's most common forward linemates:

Sutter 440:48
Spaling 219:35
Malkin 189:10
Neal 153:02
Downie 134:41
Kunitz 125:05
Crosby 116:10
Jokinen 104:41
Jeffrey 88:48
.
.
Adams 70:17
.
.
Glass 28:02

It really was never about BB's linemates nearly as much as how he was playing and his lack of strength. All the behind the back passes and perimeter play in the world just isn't going to result in production. From what we've seen of him this year, he's simplified his game, gotten to the scoring areas, and trained himself up, and he's been rewarded with some production, albeit in a small sample.

If he can stay healthy, and keeps playing the way he has been, he can be a useful player, and that's great. But the previous version of BB was never going to be of much use, regardless of linemates.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I think Sid's better down low in the defensive zone, but Geno can be phenomenal defensively when he wants to.

Probably the big thing in general with Malkin, tbh. His defensive game is mercurial and he's a very different and better player when he cares about defense.

Once he gets into his predatory style of hockey, where he's swooping around and galloping, he's unbelievable. Between his ability to read and anticipate plays, his reach, and his shifty speed, he could be lethal night in and night out if he really wanted to be, and in all three zones. He lead the league in takeaways right at the end of Therrien's tenure here. He was unreal.

I doubt it's a matter of wanting to, I'm sure they all want to be at their best all of the time (except Kunitz who is perfecting finding how low he can go.) but it's something they can't do for one reason or another. Mentally, physically with energy or being banged up. Even the lazy ones probably do, only if it took less effort.

Imagine if we had a real coach for the past 5+ years who worked with them on all of these things, and consistently got the most out of them (as well as a GM that gave them a worthy supporting cast before they'd been in the league for a full decade).

Yeah... they've really dropped the ball on developing those two and that's not sarcasm. Bad habits and tendencies have been allowed to build up and even been encouraged. They both have problems with a shooting mentality, Malkin hasn't been remotely consistent with defense, Crosby likes his overly ambitious passes too often, etc. Those are things that should have been consistently tackled by the coaching staffs, and I'll give Johnston credit that he's got them on the PK and Malkin looks more reliably interested in defense now. They've also got Crosby playing with talent instead of jerking off to grinders on the 1st line and pushing narratives about it.

All it took was killing the offense and selling Kunitz's soul iron.

 

[vyktor]

Well your only argument is wild speculation with absolutely no evidence. This speculation has been happening for years. K-C-D stays together when they trade for Iginla? Crosby must have demanded it. Kunitz still on Crosby's line in 2015? Crosby must have demanded it.

What is more likely to you? Crosby demanded K-C-D stay together or this organization, which traded Simon Despres for Ben Lovejoy, is poorly run and stupid.

Besides, what about Crosby's personality makes you think he'd demand to play with his friends instead of doing what is best for the team? For a star he has a seemingly non-existant ego yet he's supposedly demanding that he play with certain players? Makes no sense.

And I keep saying you're nuts because you must be nuts to believe the things that you are saying. It is not part of my argument at all either, it is my explanation for why you believe the crazy things you are posting.

Have you seen that thing he calls a jock, Sid obviously has separation issues and inability to let go of thing he finds comfortable

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Have you seen that thing he calls a jock, Sid obviously has separation issues and inability to let go of thing he finds comfortable

Which is why Colby Armstrong, his best friend and linemate, was never involved in a trade for a far superior player like Marian Hossa. Crosby just couldn't let go so he nixed the deal.

Get your psychology 101 nonsense out of here Mr. Freud.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It seems to me that you originally said that K-C-D stayed together because that's what Crosby wanted and now you are back tracking because you got called out for saying that.

Yes, I said I thought that was widely known that they wanted to stay together. Then you said "nuh uh, no way Sid wanted that!!" and I said it's entirely possible. I wasn't trying to prove that Sid wanted Dupuis on his line, because we have no way of knowing. I'm saying it's entirely possible and saying that you have no clue whether or not that's what Sid wanted.

Basically, I was arguing that you have absolutely no support for any of your definitive claims you were making. I'm not arguing with you about whether he wanted KCD to stay together because neither you or I know, so that's a pointless argument.

I do not believe Sid is a robot, I merely refuse to believe that he would rather play with Pascal Dupuis than Jerome Iginla. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that Sid is so blinded by preference that he prefered to play with a clearly inferior player, hurting himself and the team in the process.

Again, can you read what is written or do you just like to make up your own words? Serious question. I said it's possible that he wanted that. I never said that Sid is "so blinded by preference that he decided to play with a clearly inferior player". I said it's entirely possible that he was comfortable with Dupuis, and since that line was producing, he wanted to keep those 2 his linemates. That's not saying he wanted KCD to stay together, that's saying it's possible that he did.

Just stop. I'm not close-minded because I choose not to believe what you are claiming. What you are claiming just doesn't make sense. You can act like you didn't claim it was Crosby's call to keep K-C-D together, but the reality is that is exactly what you meant with your original post.

No, you are close minded because you're completely dismissing the possibility that Sid wanted to play with Dupuis entirely based on nothing other than your own view of the players. That is extremely close minded. Just like you said, you refuse to believe that he would rather have played with Dupuis than Iginla. That is the definition of close minded. You're dismissing anything that doesn't fit your own opinion as ludicrous. How isn't that close minded?

Yes, I did originally claim he wanted to keep KCD together, because that's what I thought happened. You did nothing to disprove that other than just ranting on how Sid didn't want that because Iginla is better than Dupuis, as if that proves what Sid wanted. Your only argument is that since Iginla was better than Dupuis, Crosby wanted Iginla on his line. That's the only argument you've made and it's completely flawed.

 

[JTG]

I'd like to see Kessel with Geno. I'd like to see Perron with Sid and Hornqvist.

Sid and Kessel just don't look great. It looks ok because they both are really talented, but there is absolutely no chemistry there.

 

[vyktor]

Which is why Colby Armstrong, his best friend and linemate, was never involved in a trade for a far superior player like Marian Hossa. Crosby just couldn't let go so he nixed the deal.

Get your psychology 101 nonsense out of here Mr. Freud.

But Colby is back with the organization, you only strengthen the analysis

 

[cajal]

Looks like the frustration is mounting

Exactly what I was thinking. I think that so many years of effed up decisions by the Pens staff/management/ownership has made many fans (including me) a bit nuts trying to find any logic in those decisions.

What gets lost in the "I'm right, you're wrong" battles on a message board is that most fans are here because they want the team to succeed.

There's occasionally a fan that would prefer the team struggle to prove them right about whatever, but those types are few and far between in my experience.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't think Geno is worse defensively, I think Sid is just worse as a winger (rookie year) which is why he plays C. Faceoffs help I'm sure.

I don't think Geno is getting screwed over by the team either. Wasn't Sid given Hornqvist first to try the first 10 games of the season because Geno was injured to start last season? It's similar to what happened with Neal. After the first 10 games, Hornqvist was switched to Geno's wing for 10 games. It doesn't matter who goes first for 10 games - as long as they both get a fair shot with the wingers.

And some people on here have biases when it comes to either player, just quicker to criticise and slower to find fault with one of 87 or 71. You'll see some people only complain when Kunitz (or random deadweight) is on Sid's line, and some who only do so when he's on Geno's line. Or else, it's complaining once vs. constantly throughout the game. Or argue that Hornqvist was productive on Geno's line last year *until* we got Kessel and suddenly they don't mesh.

I think both Sid and Geno have their preferences of where they like to play and how they like to play and who they play with - all star players do. But I also think they have a lot of mutual respect for each other where they don't do it to actively hurt the other player's game.

Only one guy can be the face of your franchise. One guy can be the captain. That's just reality.

The three biggest wingers ever acquired for this team: Neal, Hossa and Kessel were acquired for Crosby. Crosby had established chemistry with Hornqvist and yet the org wanted Kessel with Crosby first. Crosby is their cash cow and anyone who thinks he will be moved before Malkin, all things being equal, are not living in reality or paying attention. He's the most marketable player in the league, but yet his own org doesn't see him that way? Right....

Not only do we have Crosby fanboys in here trying to deny the org sees Crosby as the face of their franchise, but I personally know a plethora of his fanboys doing the same. Once again, all I can come up with is they believe it creates the perception that Crosby demands these things. The org can make these decisions on their own without Crosby being a demanding, pouty superstar.

Why his fanboys can't discern the difference is a little disturbing.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It really was never about BB's linemates nearly as much as how he was playing and his lack of strength. All the behind the back passes and perimeter play in the world just isn't going to result in production. From what we've seen of him this year, he's simplified his game, gotten to the scoring areas, and trained himself up, and he's been rewarded with some production, albeit in a small sample.

If he can stay healthy, and keeps playing the way he has been, he can be a useful player, and that's great. But the previous version of BB was never going to be of much use, regardless of linemates.

What we're seeing now is healthy Bennett, which is primarily what we saw when Bennett was in the line-up prior to last year. Last year, he was playing with a persistent injury that hampered him, and I think that version has become what some believe Bennett always was before this season's "epiphany".

Bennett, when healthy, was never a Spezza-esque puck management liability. He was arguably the smartest forward on the team in terms of taking what he was given and making safe, creative offensive plays.

I do think he's gotten better about getting to the net this year, though.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I'd like to see Kessel with Geno. I'd like to see Perron with Sid and Hornqvist.

Sid and Kessel just don't look great. It looks ok because they both are really talented, but there is absolutely no chemistry there.

If only everyone in power didn't seem so dead-set against it.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Yes, I said I thought that was widely known that they wanted to stay together. Then you said "nuh uh, no way Sid wanted that!!" and I said it's entirely possible. I wasn't trying to prove that Sid wanted Dupuis on his line, because we have no way of knowing. I'm saying it's entirely possible and saying that you have no clue whether or not that's what Sid wanted.

Basically, I was arguing that you have absolutely no support for any of your definitive claims you were making. I'm not arguing with you about whether he wanted KCD to stay together because neither you or I know, so that's a pointless argument.



Again, can you read what is written or do you just like to make up your own words? Serious question. I said it's possible that he wanted that. I never said that Sid is "so blinded by preference that he decided to play with a clearly inferior player". I said it's entirely possible that he was comfortable with Dupuis, and since that line was producing, he wanted to keep those 2 his linemates. That's not saying he wanted KCD to stay together, that's saying it's possible that he did.



No, you are close minded because you're completely dismissing the possibility that Sid wanted to play with Dupuis entirely based on nothing other than your own view of the players. That is extremely close minded. Just like you said, you refuse to believe that he would rather have played with Dupuis than Iginla. That is the definition of close minded. You're dismissing anything that doesn't fit your own opinion as ludicrous. How isn't that close minded?

Yes, I did originally claim he wanted to keep KCD together, because that's what I thought happened. You did nothing to disprove that other than just ranting on how Sid didn't want that because Iginla is better than Dupuis, as if that proves what Sid wanted. Your only argument is that since Iginla was better than Dupuis, Crosby wanted Iginla on his line. That's the only argument you've made and it's completely flawed.

No such thing was ever widely known. That has always been speculation in order to explain Bylsma/the organization's stupidity. I suppose it's possible that Crosby wanted Dupuis on his line, I just find it tremendously unlikely considering all we've been told about Crosby's personality. He seems to be a guy who wants what's best for the team. I just don't think he would limit his own coach's options so he can play on a line with his buddy.

That's my problem here. You are criticizing me for believing the far more likely explanation that K-C-D stayed together because Bylsma is an idiot.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

But Colby is back with the organization, you only strengthen the analysis

I don't think Colby being brought back to work on the radio pre-game says very much at all. It's not like they signed his as a free agent and put him on Sid's line.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'd like to see Kessel with Geno. I'd like to see Perron with Sid and Hornqvist.

Sid and Kessel just don't look great. It looks ok because they both are really talented, but there is absolutely no chemistry there.

I think it's more about Malkin not clicking with Hornqvist, but ya so far Crosby and Kessel aren't showing much chemistry. It may come though. Maybe you take Kunitz off that line and suddenly they look unstoppable.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think it's more about Malkin not clicking with Hornqvist, but ya so far Crosby and Kessel aren't showing much chemistry. It may come though. Maybe you take Kunitz off that line and suddenly they look unstoppable.

I certainly think having Kessel be the only guy playing like a sniper would help. Someone helping get the puck from the walls would be far more useful than whatever Kunitz is doing.

I still think Kessel and Geno may be better, but right now its hard to say how Sid and Kessel can be with a proper 3rd wheel. 2009-2012 Kunitz would be perfect for that spot, but he's simply not that player anymore, even when he's actually playing well.

 

[IcedCapp]

So many people are concerned with poor, defenceless, mistreated Malkin that they never bothered to ask, answer, or think about one really important question...

Maybe... Just maybe Malkin wanted to play with Hornqvist.

And maybe... Just maybe.... Out of every player on the roster, the organization thinks Malkin is the best option for the spot he's in on the pp.

But I've never talked to Malkin's mom or dad or cousin, so I don't really know what happens in the organization

 

[mpp9]

I think getting Sid and Geno on different sides of the ice on the PP is most important if we want player movement and quick puck movement.

I was at the game, and they definitely had stretches where they looked as good as they ever have.

Kessel will score his goals off rebounds if they keep doing what they did last night.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I certainly think having Kessel be the only guy playing like a sniper would help. Someone helping get the puck from the walls would be far more useful than whatever Kunitz is doing.

I still think Kessel and Geno may be better, but right now its hard to say how Sid and Kessel can be with a proper 3rd wheel. 2009-2012 Kunitz would be perfect for that spot, but he's simply not that player anymore, even when he's actually playing well.

JVR and Bozak weren't exactly board monsters. Some would call them soft I suppose. Kessel mostly generated his own offense. I think he's trying to force Crosby pucks a little as well.

If they both took what the defense was giving them and didn't over complicate things, it would get better. I've seen both guilty of passing to each other on odd man breaks when the blueliner is giving them the shot.

 

[sf expat71]

Which is why Colby Armstrong, his best friend and linemate, was never involved in a trade for a far superior player like Marian Hossa. Crosby just couldn't let go so he nixed the deal.

Get your psychology 101 nonsense out of here Mr. Freud.

I never said Crosby is making any demands. I said the organization favors him. I hope that clears up your confusion.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I guess Malkin can't speak for himself?

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/9121647-74/malkin-plotnikov-doesn#axzz3pAf3t2A6

Big player for us,” Malkin said of Kessel. “I think everyone's excited here. He's a good player. I'm excited to play with him.

Downplaying the idea that Kessel will start with Sidney Crosby, Malkin said it's coach Mike Johnston's call who lines up where.

“He knows what he wants to do,” Malkin said. “I think he'll try different lines.

http://www.thescore.com/news/826388

"Of course I want to play with Phil," Malkin said at Tuesday's NHL-NHLPA media tour in Toronto. If it's Kessel and Crosby, Malkin may "take my time" on line changes, in order to play with the sniper.

 

[Saints11]

Just speculating, because of our junior coach's obsession with line pairs, that he looked at Sid as the passer to Kessel's shooter and Hornqvist as the net-front, rebounder to Geno's shooter.

 

[Ogrezilla]

JVR and Bozak weren't exactly board monsters. Some would call them soft I suppose. Kessel mostly generated his own offense. I think he's trying to force Crosby pucks a little as well.

If they both took what the defense was giving them and didn't over complicate things, it would get better. I've seen both guilty of passing to each other on odd man breaks when the blueliner is giving them the shot.

this is true. They both need to learn how to work off one another (or when to just ignore one another) on the rush.

 

[AR5]

You are only as good as your source. Once again, sorry. I'm pretty sure I know more about Crosby as a person than you based on my conversations with his family members I've met. That doesn't make me an expert on the guy anymore than it makes you an expert on the inner workings of a dysfunctional org.

Any time someone says something you deem as a negative towards Crosby you get all riled up and it's all just keyboard diarrhea from you that makes me roll my eyes.

I followed this team long before Crosby or Malkin arrived. I don't like one more than the other, it makes no sense to me why people become fanboys like you. It's beyond obvious you are a Crosby fanboy, which is fine until you go on a silly know it all diatribes like this. You don't know it all, but pretend you do. It doesn't impress me. It's just white noise on a message board, killing time.

Crosby is the franchise. Yep, it makes good business sense and that is exactly why the org makes decisions with Crosby in mind over Malkin. Why you have trouble dealing with that reality and it gets you all bent is once again your deal, not mine.

You get so bent out of shape you project **** and think I blame Crosby. That's how blind with silly rage you get when you defend Crosby. It's lame.

I mean, IC knows more than you or any of the rest of us do about the Pens. Regardless of how long ago any of us started following the team. He has proven this with his predictions.

So... why are we still discussing this?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I mean, IC knows more than you or any of the rest of us do about the Pens. Regardless of how long ago any of us started following the team. He has proven this with his predictions.

So... why are we still discussing this?

Yohe, DK and Madden don't have sources? Just because people in here, myself included, dislike some of the people on this list, doesn't mean their sources are wrong.

Also, just because someone has a source doesn't make them an expert. You do understand that, I hope?

We don't need sources to tell us Crosby is the face of the franchise and their cash cow. The org decisions have made that quite obvious to anyone willing to pay attention, who isn't blinded by being a Crosby fanboy.