Penguins moving to Quebec ???

[discostu]

Some form of subsidization would be required in most NHL markets, espeically those in the US if a new arena is funded. Obviously they are exceptions. I just don't see how this is something new, it's happened lots of other places, and in many other sports when new arenas are being built.

As far as the other sports being subsidized, my point was this. You say that all NFL teams would be turning a profit if public funding was taken away. That may be true, but I guess what I was trying to say is this, even if a team could build an arena completley on it's own profits and revenue's if state/local money is there I can gurantee is most cases the team would use that to help defray some of the costs of building a new stadium/arena rather than paying for the whole thing themselves.

No one will ever turn down free money, so yes, I agree with you on that point.

I think I just brought it up because when people say that Pittsburgh can support an NHL franchise, they don't qualify that statement. The truth is, Pittsburgh can support a franchise if they get a little help from the tax payer.

I support Pittsburgh keeping its franchise, as, I think stability is a good thing in the league, and I have my doubts that any of the prospective sights are much better. If the local government finds a solution that works for them that can keep the team there, more power to them. I just don't think people should hype the market of Pittsburgh to being more than it actually is.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I just don't think people should hype the market of Pittsburgh to being more than it actually is.

does it cause you personal distress?

the only thing the market of pittsburgh can do is go to the games, which they have done pretty well for being a lottery team since 2001-02, averaging 14,520 since then. the pens have also been one of the best US teams in terms of TV viewership for over a decade now. no one is claiming them to be montreal or toronto, but the pittsburgh hockey market is very good. if the pens were a good team, the questions of market viability would not even be there.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

A couple of points:

1) The Pens had a lousy, lousy lease. Courtesy of Mr. Baldwin. Classic line my pockets now, and the team is screwed for decades after I am gone. I truly believe that the Pens can make money in the igloo if it came to it with an adequate lease. Not enough to spend to the top of the Cap, but enough to ice a team.

2) That is not the issue. The issue is that a deal as good as Pittsburgh currenly has offered to the Pens is on the table at least one other place, KC, and likely others. That is the sole issue, will Pittsburgh match. They have.

 

[discostu]

does it cause you personal distress?

No, but I do get confused when people tell me that I'm not saying is nothing new and is completely obvious, yet at the same time tell me that I am wrong.

 

[hockeydadx2*]

Gotta nail down the new building, but with a typical lease (one like the Steelers and Pirates have) they'll rake it in. I would be willing to bet that under those circumstances they will out-profit most of the Canadian teams. It will take some time to prove that, but I'm willing to bet.

Right now that lease is horrible. They pay rent, and essentially only get profit from the tickets themselves. That is it. Thanks, Howard Baldwin.

 

[kdb209]

Look at Ottawa. Banks lent Bryden and his group 100's of millions of dollars to build the Corel Centre and then it went bankrupt and the lenders got a fraction of the money lent out back. That kind of thing is a precedent for the Pens not getting bank loans to build a new facility without a guy with deep pockets to back it up like say Ted Leonis or Eugene Melynyk. Mario Lemieux doesn't have a billion dollars in assets to back up a $200 million loan.

Of course having a guy with deep pockets to back it up doesn't guarantee anything - look at Portland. Paul Allen, perhaps the richest owner in all professional sports, privately financed the construction of the Rose Garden (through a wholly owned subsidiary Oregon Arena Corp which issued bonds to finance the construction). And guess what - Allen discovered that even with all of the revenue streams from T-Blazers games and other events (concerts, etc), he could not cover the debt payments and still make money. He finally declared bankruptcy to get out from under the construction debt, and control of the Rose Garden passed to the bondholders. Allen's T-Blazers were left just being a tenant in the Rose Garden, with perhaps the worst lease in professional sports - most revenues (luxury boxes, advertising, etc) which had gone to OAC now were transferred to the new ownership group - the T-Blazers now basically just get ticket revenues.

Let this be a cautionary tale to those talking about teams building privately funded arenas and the Rose Garden wasn't even 100% privately funded - the construction was private, but the city of Portland gave the land and improvements.

Its all well and good to say that a team owner should spend his own money to build an arena, but as long at there are other cities with state-of-the-art arenas already build or under construction (Houston, Kansas City, OKC) looking to poach an NHL (or NBA) tream, some forms of public financing will be needed for upgrades of existing arenas, or teams will simply move for a better deal.

 

[skullman80]

Of course having a guy with deep pockets to back it up doesn't guarantee anything - look at Portland. Paul Allen, perhaps the richest owner in all professional sports, privately financed the construction of the Rose Garden (through a wholly owned subsidiary Oregon Arena Corp which issued bonds to finance the construction). And guess what - Allen discovered that even with all of the revenue streams from T-Blazers games and other events (concerts, etc), he could not cover the debt payments and still make money. He finally declared bankruptcy to get out from under the construction debt, and control of the Rose Garden passed to the bondholders. Allen's T-Blazers were left just being a tenant in the Rose Garden, with perhaps the worst lease in professional sports - most revenues (luxury boxes, advertising, etc) which had gone to OAC now were transferred to the new ownership group - the T-Blazers now basically just get ticket revenues.

Let this be a cautionary tale to those talking about teams building privately funded arenas and the Rose Garden wasn't even 100% privately funded - the construction was private, but the city of Portland gave the land and improvements.

Its all well and good to say that a team owner should spend his own money to build an arena, but as long at there are other cities with state-of-the-art arenas already build or under construction (Houston, Kansas City, OKC) looking to poach an NHL (or NBA) tream, some forms of public financing will be needed for upgrades of existing arenas, or teams will simply move for a better deal.

The Pens lease is almost exactly like the T-Blazers in this case. They get nothing but ticket revenue for the most part. No concessions, no parking, nothing from other events...

 

[baston]

Redbull's owner had a huge success last winter with it's Crashed Ice event and fell in love with the city.

He's thinking about buying an nhl team and putting in Quebec City ... Now that's a big name!

Some links (sorry all in french) :
http://www2.canoe.com/sports/nouvelles/f1/archives/2006/06/20060625-070600.html
http://www.quebechebdo.com/article-...hitz-celui-par-qui-le-hockey-reviendrait.html
http://www2.canoe.com/cgi-bin/imprimer.cgi?id=240099

He owns two Formula 1 teams (Torro Rosso, ex-Minardi, and Red Bull, ex-Jaguar), one Nascar team (Toyota-Red Bull Racing), two soccer teams (the New York Red Bulls and another one in Austria) and also owns an hockey team in Austria (Salzbourg's Red Bulls).

He said to "Le Journal de Montreal" : " Since the begginings of Red Bull, our philosophy isn't to be an external sponsor but to integrate ourserves in the sport itself. THis strategy gives better results and that's why we own our own teams in F1, Nascar, Soccer and Hockey."

"For now, NASCAR and the New York Red Bull (soccer) are the only two teams we are planning to own in North America. We launched our product only 1 year ago in Canada and we concentrate on our classical marketing tools and strategies. However, the question on an eventual engagement of Red Bull (to bring an NHL team in Quebec City) is fascinating. We are definitely planning to take an attentive look at it."

The guy didn't want his soccer team to play in Giants Stadium anymore, so he spent 100 millions and built the Red Bull Park.

Dietrich Mateschitz (Redbull's founder/owner) is number 317 in Forbes' 2006 list of the World's richest people with a net worth of 2.4 bil. (was at 1.4 only 2 years ago): http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/DGAD.html

If you wanna compare :
- Mark Cuban (Dallas Mavericks owner) is #428 with 1.8 Bil.
- Guy Laliberte (Cirque du Soleil, from Quebec City) is #562 with 1.4
Bil (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/SY4I.html)
- Leslie Alexander who wants a team in Houston is not on the list (he's worth 80 millions ... ugh : http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2005-salary-owners.htm)
- George Gillett, Habs owner, about 250 millions : http://extras.denverpost.com/business/biz0408b.htm

Sooo, Mateschitz definitely has the money

 

[HandshakeLine]

Redbull's owner had a huge success last winter with it's Crashed Ice event and fell in love with the city.

He's thinking about buying an nhl team and putting in Quebec City ... Now that's a big name!

Some links (sorry all in french) :
http://www2.canoe.com/sports/nouvelles/f1/archives/2006/06/20060625-070600.html
http://www.quebechebdo.com/article-...hitz-celui-par-qui-le-hockey-reviendrait.html
http://www2.canoe.com/cgi-bin/imprimer.cgi?id=240099

He owns two Formula 1 teams (Torro Rosso, ex-Minardi, and Red Bull, ex-Jaguar), one Nascar team (Toyota-Red Bull Racing), two soccer teams (the New York Red Bulls and another one in Austria) and also owns an hockey team in Austria (Salzbourg's Red Bulls).

He said to "Le Journal de Montreal" : " Since the begginings of Red Bull, our philosophy isn't to be an external sponsor but to integrate ourserves in the sport itself. THis strategy gives better results and that's why we own our own teams in F1, Nascar, Soccer and Hockey."

"For now, NASCAR and the New York Red Bull (soccer) are the only two teams we are planning to own in North America. We launched our product only 1 year ago in Canada and we concentrate on our classical marketing tools and strategies. However, the question on an eventual engagement of Red Bull (to bring an NHL team in Quebec City) is fascinating. We are definitely planning to take an attentive look at it."

The guy didn't want his soccer team to play in Giants Stadium anymore, so he spent 100 millions and built the Red Bull Park.

Dietrich Mateschitz (Redbull's founder/owner) is number 317 in Forbes' 2006 list of the World's richest people with a net worth of 2.4 bil. (was at 1.4 only 2 years ago): http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/DGAD.html

If you wanna compare :
- Mark Cuban (Dallas Mavericks owner) is #428 with 1.8 Bil.
- Guy Laliberte (Cirque du Soleil, from Quebec City) is #562 with 1.4
Bil (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/SY4I.html)
- Leslie Alexander who wants a team in Houston is not on the list (he's worth 80 millions ... ugh : http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2005-salary-owners.htm)
- George Gillett, Habs owner, about 250 millions : http://extras.denverpost.com/business/biz0408b.htm

Sooo, Mateschitz definitely has the money

He has the money, but he's too late to the party. He's not getting the Penguins-- the franchise will be sold next week and the final bids are all in. There's only one ownership group who's professed any intention to move to Canada, and that would be the group who wants to relocate the team to Hamilton. Sorry, Quebec.

 

[baston]

I do not want the Penguins to move out of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is a great sports city, filled with hard working blue collar guys that are passionnate about their teams. Goooooo Steelers

Honestly, I can sympatize with Pittsburgh ... the team has support from the population, but they could move because the state doesn't want to spend for a new arena ...

Getting tons of first picks and watching a young team having awful seasons, knowing that 1 day, they'll win a couple of stanley cup together ... in another city.

Sounds like 1995 all over again

The Penguins needs to stay in Pensylvania.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I do not want the Penguins to move out of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is a great sports city, filled with hard working blue collar guys that are passionnate about their teams. Goooooo Steelers

Honestly, I can sympatize with Pittsburgh ... the team has support from the population, but they could move because the state doesn't want to spend for a new arena ...

Getting tons of first picks and watching a young team having awful seasons, knowing that 1 day, they'll win a couple of stanley cup together ... in another city.

Sounds like 1995 all over again

The Penguins needs to stay in Pensylvania.

I know. I was just pointing out that there's no way the Pens relocate to Quebec. I still hope Quebec gets a team, because, honestly, it's just not the same without a Habs-Quebec rivalry. I want to see another Good Friday Massacre.

 

[Poignant Discussion*]

The funny thing is that if Pittsburgh didn't currently have a team, that would be the one market that everyone would point to as the perfect fit for an NHL franchise if they would just build a new arena. It's large when compared to such locations as Kansas City, Portland, and OKC. Football is king by a huge margin, but there is some hockey. Natural rivalries with Philly, Buffalo, and Columbus. No NBA team to compete against. No major NCAA hockey programs.

When you factor in that there actually is a team in Pittsburgh, and it's a team with a rich history......I really hope they can get something done.

I will take Pittsburgh over Houston any day when it comes to the NHL. The only major market that I really feel is being neglected, and would potentially bring more to the NHL than Pittsburgh, with a team of Crosby and Malkin, technically already has a team named the Blackhawks

Oh give me a break. How many times has this team came close to folding....hell in the 80's they actually had the doors padlocked. Pitsburgh has been a disgrace to the NHL and if they lose thier team the fans and the former owners who ran this team into the ground have noone to blame but themselves. This market has in over 40 years proven they can only draw sellouts when they have a superstar on their team and or are winning.

Lets look at some figures shall we

7407,6008,6998, 9671,9634,11195,10159,11224,11455,10040,10548,11430,10653 10335,11299,8408,6839,10018,12576,14965,15166,15734,16018,15927,15993, 16105,16714,16108,16239,16691,15069,14825,15444,16336,14895,14749

The team has averaged about 11,000 fans per game since they were granted a team and thats just a disgrace. And you can't use the "it's the arena's fault" since it was a newer building when they were attracting 7000 fans a game. Thier cross state rivals averaged 17,000 per game most of the time. The NHL has been more than generous giving this team chance after chance, eventually people are going to figure out that Pittsburgh is a football town since the same damned thing is happening with the Pirates in a NEW building

 

[skullman80]

Oh give me a break. How many times has this team came close to folding....hell in the 80's they actually had the doors padlocked. Pitsburgh has been a disgrace to the NHL and if they lose thier team the fans and the former owners who ran this team into the ground have noone to blame but themselves. This market has in over 40 years proven they can only draw sellouts when they have a superstar on their team and or are winning.

Lets look at some figures shall we

7407,6008,6998, 9671,9634,11195,10159,11224,11455,10040,10548,11430,10653 10335,11299,8408,6839,10018,12576,14965,15166,15734,16018,15927,15993, 16105,16714,16108,16239,16691,15069,14825,15444,16336,14895,14749

The team has averaged about 11,000 fans per game since they were granted a team and thats just a disgrace. And you can't use the "it's the arena's fault" since it was a newer building when they were attracting 7000 fans a game. Thier cross state rivals averaged 17,000 per game most of the time. The NHL has been more than generous giving this team chance after chance, eventually people are going to figure out that Pittsburgh is a football town since the same damned thing is happening with the Pirates in a NEW building

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Oh give me a break. How many times has this team came close to folding....hell in the 80's they actually had the doors padlocked. Pitsburgh has been a disgrace to the NHL and if they lose thier team the fans and the former owners who ran this team into the ground have noone to blame but themselves. This market has in over 40 years proven they can only draw sellouts when they have a superstar on their team and or are winning.

Lets look at some figures shall we

7407,6008,6998, 9671,9634,11195,10159,11224,11455,10040,10548,11430,10653 10335,11299,8408,6839,10018,12576,14965,15166,15734,16018,15927,15993, 16105,16714,16108,16239,16691,15069,14825,15444,16336,14895,14749

The team has averaged about 11,000 fans per game since they were granted a team and thats just a disgrace. And you can't use the "it's the arena's fault" since it was a newer building when they were attracting 7000 fans a game. Thier cross state rivals averaged 17,000 per game most of the time. The NHL has been more than generous giving this team chance after chance, eventually people are going to figure out that Pittsburgh is a football town since the same damned thing is happening with the Pirates in a NEW building

Please.

a) What does attendence figures from 40 years ago matter to the issue of the current hockey market in Pittsburgh? Hockey has grown and evolved by leaps and bounds in Pittsburgh, from youth hockey to the high schools, etc, etc.

b) Holy misleading stats. Hockey was an entirely different market in the sixties and attendence figures were much lower across the board than today.

c) Totally misleading as to WHY the Pens went bankrupt. If you really want to know why read this. But I highly doubt that you will. So many at HF have a rabidly anti-Pens agenda it is sickening. And heaven knows, do not let facts get in the way of it:

Cook: Baldwin's zeal led Penguins, NHL to ruin

Monday, February 17, 2003

The voice on the telephone was quiet, sad. "You're going to carve me up again, aren't you?" Howard Baldwin asked from Los Angeles.

Well, yeah.

Is anyone more responsible for the dire financial straits of not just the Penguins, but the entire NHL?

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/columnists/20030217cook0217p1.asp

d) For all you who hate us, well get used to us. The Pens seem more likely to stay than not and we are taking names. It will make the taste all the sweeter when eventually the shoe is on the other foot and we are running the score up on your pride and joy.

 

[Pens1566]

Oh give me a break. How many times has this team came close to folding....hell in the 80's they actually had the doors padlocked. Pitsburgh has been a disgrace to the NHL and if they lose thier team the fans and the former owners who ran this team into the ground have noone to blame but themselves. This market has in over 40 years proven they can only draw sellouts when they have a superstar on their team and or are winning.

Lets look at some figures shall we

7407,6008,6998, 9671,9634,11195,10159,11224,11455,10040,10548,11430,10653 10335,11299,8408,6839,10018,12576,14965,15166,15734,16018,15927,15993, 16105,16714,16108,16239,16691,15069,14825,15444,16336,14895,14749

The team has averaged about 11,000 fans per game since they were granted a team and thats just a disgrace. And you can't use the "it's the arena's fault" since it was a newer building when they were attracting 7000 fans a game. Thier cross state rivals averaged 17,000 per game most of the time. The NHL has been more than generous giving this team chance after chance, eventually people are going to figure out that Pittsburgh is a football town since the same damned thing is happening with the Pirates in a NEW building

Well since you put it that way, move the pens to toronto!!! Fold them now.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Oh give me a break. How many times has this team came close to folding....hell in the 80's they actually had the doors padlocked. Pitsburgh has been a disgrace to the NHL and if they lose thier team the fans and the former owners who ran this team into the ground have noone to blame but themselves. This market has in over 40 years proven they can only draw sellouts when they have a superstar on their team and or are winning.

The Blues were halfway to Saskatoon in 1983 before the league stepped in and nixed the move, and then two groups wanting to buy the Blues got into a fight over who really owned the team and the Blues weren't allowed to sit at the 1983 draft as a result.

The franchise has shuffled through at least 3 ownership groups who've run up huge debts owning the team, handicapping the club's ability to take care of normal business and forcing the team to move talented players for much less than market value because of ownership's order to slash expenses. Heck, under Harry Ornest the Blues didn't have 10 full-time employees outside of the coaching staff.

I don't hear anyone talking about how bad a hockey market St. Louis is in spite of all of that.

If you swap "Minnesota" for "Pittsburgh" in your discussion of the Penguins' woes and how the city can't support a hockey team, you have a pretty soft look at what happened with the North Stars from 1967-1993; the situation there was much worse, except that the team didn't go into bankruptcy. They just merged with the Cleveland Barons and continued to struggle.

And I don't recall people saying that Minneapolis-St. Paul was a horrible hockey market in 1995.

But you brought up the 80s: that was a period of time when the steel industry absolutely collapsed, causing many people in Pittsburgh to fall on hard times. Even the Steelers weren't packing the fans in during this stretch. So I'd expect attendance to have struggled, considering most people in Pittsburgh were more worried about putting food on the table and keeping the lights on at home than loading up the station wagon with the kids and going to see a hockey game.

As I always say, perspective. It's important to put things in the proper perspective.

 

[Wetcoaster]

I do not want the Penguins to move out of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is a great sports city, filled with hard working blue collar guys that are passionnate about their teams. Goooooo Steelers

Which is precisely NOT the market that the NHL targets.

 

[jcrangerno1]

That should be fun...

The Devils new arena in Newark is currently under construction. It is ahead of schedule, and it will be ready for the start of the 2007-08 season.

Here is a 24 hour elapsed-time camera.

Putting an arena in the middle of one of the WORST crime areas in NJ. That will sure draw in the fans from the swamp!! What will the next promo be - tip of the detectives to the nearest crack addict and get a 2nd ticket at 1/2 price

 

[WesMantooth]

7407,6008,6998, 9671,9634,11195,10159,11224,11455,10040,10548,11430,10653 10335,11299,8408,6839,10018,12576,14965,15166,15734,16018,15927,15993, 16105,16714,16108,16239,16691,15069,14825,15444,16336,14895,14749

If you notice, the past 17 seasons are all within the range of 14,749 and 16,691. With an AVERAGE of 15,705. Holy *****, how many NHL franchises would drool over those numbers??

I think I just brought it up because when people say that Pittsburgh can support an NHL franchise, they don't qualify that statement. The truth is, Pittsburgh can support a franchise if they get a little help from the tax payer.

Average attendance of 15,705 over the past 17 seasons not only qualifies the statement, it quantifies the statement. With this level of fan support, all you can hope for is that the team owners can keep the franchise afloat with smart financial decisions. Unfortunately for Pittsburgh, we got stuck with Howard Baldwin's deal and Mellon Arena. With the salary cap in place, the new arena on the way with a new lease, the Pens will become an NHL powerhouse and will stay that way for decades.

KC, Houston, Las Vegas, Hamilton, Quebec City, Winnipeg... Sorry, but please give up on your Sidney Crosby dreams now before you set yourself up for even more disappointment.

 

[Northern Dancer]

To much emphasis on attendance here. Attendance was not a problem in Quebec City and Winnipeg. The cost of the tickets is important, corporate sponsorship is important, TV revenue is important, luxury boxes is important. A team with a pay-roll of 42 million has to generate 1 million in PROFIT (not revenue) every home game just to pay the players on the ice.

 

[Gillies9]

The problem with the Igloo/the Pens' finances is simple:

No luxury boxes.

 

[skullman80]

The problem with the Igloo/the Pens' finances is simple:

No luxury boxes.

That is part of the problem, but the bigger problem is the lease that the Pens have. They get pretty much nothing as far as revenues go from Concessions/Parking/ or any other events. They get revenue from hockey tickets...that's about it.

 

[blackhawksmaniac]

Id rather see the Pens move to winnipeg rather than QC

 

[skullman80]

Id rather see the Pens move to winnipeg rather than QC

How bout the Pens just stay right here

 

[baston]

Id rather see the Pens move to winnipeg rather than QC

Why?