Penguins moving to Quebec ???

[SharksDownUnder]

NHL teams that do *not* have state-of-the-art arenas:

Calgary (built for the '88 Olympics)
Detroit (built in 1979)
Edmonton (built in 1974)
New Jersey (new arena in planning)
NY Islanders (new arena in planning)
NY Rangers (renovated several years back; the place is used just about every day of the year, they don't need one)
Pittsburgh (built in 1961)

All of these arena's are owned by the state... (MSG - is the only exception I think) thus it's the owners that are trying to build these arena's where it makes sense and they can get the zoning to do the development.

 

[JRod1887]

All of these arena's are owned by the state... (MSG - is the only exception I think) thus it's the owners that are trying to build these arena's where it makes sense and they can get the zoning to do the development.

Which is part of what the Penguins' ownership has been trying to get started.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Again, it's something you won't understand unless you've been following the situation from the very beginning. This has been through a lot of political processes, and has gone under tough scrutiny due to its reliance on a casino among other things. And Ed Rendell is a huge pain in the ***.

Exactly. There's more regional politics surrounding this than actual problems regarding Pittsburgh's ability to support a hockey team. It's not something you can just see a few articles in TSN and form an accurate opinion about.

 

[skullman80]

Well something does not add up. If what you say is true then why has it taken so long to build an arena and why has Pittsburgh been in recievership twice and on life support prior to the new CBA. Seems 29 other teams have state-of-the-art arenas. Whoever owns the current Mellon Arena must be absolutely coining it !!!

Because the politicians suck.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Because the politicians suck.

I still don't get it, if an owner walked in, bot the land and built a rink with his own money, the politicians would say no ?

 

[JRod1887]

I still don't get it, if an owner walked in, bot the land and built a rink with his own money, the politicians would say no ?

The process [of coughing up the money to buy the team, then coughing up the money to buy an arena, and meanwhile negotiating with local and statewide officials so that land can be bought and renovated, among other things] is a lot more difficult and complicated than you just made it seem.

 

[skullman80]

I still don't get it, if an owner walked in, bot the land and built a rink with his own money, the politicians would say no ?

I find it pretty rare that an owner just comes in and coughs up 250+ million to build a new arean, ususally if not always there is some state/local money and tax money involved. That's what the problem has been for the longest time, the city states they have had no money.

This arena promise has been going on since 1999 when Mario bought the team, meanwhile both the Pirates and Steelers got new stadiums while the Pens were left out in the cold. Both the Pirates and Steelers stadiums were partially funded by tax payer money.

It's not very often you get a fully funded private arena/stadium, or someone who just wants to come in and throw down that kind of money and buy the land etc...no matter where it is.

Thats where the whole slots license came in, The Pens found a way to get a 290 million arena privately funded at no cost to taxpayers, but there was still a holdup, all because the local politicians and governor want to give a kick back to their buddies and give them the license, that group concidentally has not agreed as of yet to put up any money for an arena.

It's a long tangled mess that has been going on for a long long long time.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

The only thing that Civic Progress (then owners of the St. Louis Blues) got was the deed to the old Kiel Auditorium, and that was in exchange for a promise (still unfulfilled) to renovate the Kiel Opera House. The United Center in Chicago might have been built without government funds, but I can't say for sure on that one.

Otherwise, I think every new pro sports facility built in the last 10-15 years has been funded in part by local and state governments.

 

[skullman80]

The only thing that Civic Progress (then owners of the St. Louis Blues) got was the deed to the old Kiel Auditorium, and that was in exchange for a promise (still unfulfilled) to renovate the Kiel Opera House. The United Center in Chicago might have been built without government funds, but I can't say for sure on that one.

Otherwise, I think every new pro sports facility built in the last 10-15 years has been funded in part by local and state governments.

That's what I was saying. No one just comes in and says "I have 290 million dollars" let me build an arena...

I wish it were that easy, but it's not.

 

[Northern Dancer]

That's what I was saying. No one just comes in and says "I have 290 million dollars" let me build an arena...

I wish it were that easy, but it's not.

All the Canadian teams built there own rinks with no hand-outs, Ottawa even had to build the exit from the highway to get to the building. Do not know about all the U.S. cities but I do know Philly, Boston, Chicago, L.A., to name a few did actually build there own rinks.

 

[kdb209]

The only thing that Civic Progress (then owners of the St. Louis Blues) got was the deed to the old Kiel Auditorium, and that was in exchange for a promise (still unfulfilled) to renovate the Kiel Opera House. The United Center in Chicago might have been built without government funds, but I can't say for sure on that one.

Otherwise, I think every new pro sports facility built in the last 10-15 years has been funded in part by local and state governments.

There are some rare exceptions built with all (or mostly) private funds. The Rose Garden in Portland was largely privately financed by Paul Allen, who finally declared bankruptcy to get out from under construction debt. Pac Bell (no SBC, no AT&T, no <insert next years name hear>) was built entirely with private funds. The Giants now have $25M+/year in debt servicing costs - that's $25M/yr that cannot be spent on a Barry Bonds replacement.

 

[skullman80]

All the Canadian teams built there own rinks with no hand-outs, Ottawa even had to build the exit from the highway to get to the building. Do not know about all the U.S. cities but I do know Philly, Boston, Chicago, L.A., to name a few did actually build there own rinks.

Boston: Primarily from bank financing, Delaware North (25%), City bonds and land (10%) and 2% ticket surcharge.

LA: $58.5 million public money, remainder by the teams.

Philly: Private loans and contribution from Spectacor. City and state made contributions for infrastructure.

Chicago: Private (80% bank loans, 20% from building owners). City contributed some infrastructure costs.

Toronto: Creative Financing -- Which I'm assuming is private funds

Ottawa: Government loan; federal grant; private bank loans; luxury seat sales

Calgary: 100% publicly financed

Atlanta: $213 million
$130.75 million in revenue bonds to be paid from arena revenues; $20 million from Turner Broadcasting; and $62.5 million from 3% car rental tax.

Buffalo: $127.5 million ($72 million from private sources and $55 million from the combined resources of New York State, Erie County, and the City of Buffalo)

Florida: Broward County will finance $184.7 million, 2% tourism tax.

Carolina: $20 million by the Hurricanes, $22 million ($48 million financing by hotel tax) by Wake County and the City of Raleigh, $22 million by NC State, $18 million by State of North Carolina.

So not all of you listed are privately fianced, while some are. Most in the NHL or not. I'm just saying it's not likely for an owner to come to town and just put down 290 million for an arena. Can it happen? Sure....but it's not likely.

Heck most of the newer buildings at least in the states were all publicy financed in someway or another.

 

[Northern Dancer]

Boston: Primarily from bank financing, Delaware North (25%), City bonds and land (10%) and 2% ticket surcharge.

LA: $58.5 million public money, remainder by the teams.

Philly: Private loans and contribution from Spectacor. City and state made contributions for infrastructure.

Chicago: Private (80% bank loans, 20% from building owners). City contributed some infrastructure costs.

Toronto: Creative Financing -- Which I'm assuming is private funds

Ottawa: Government loan; federal grant; private bank loans; luxury seat sales

Calgary: 100% publicly financed

Atlanta: $213 million
$130.75 million in revenue bonds to be paid from arena revenues; $20 million from Turner Broadcasting; and $62.5 million from 3% car rental tax.

Buffalo: $127.5 million ($72 million from private sources and $55 million from the combined resources of New York State, Erie County, and the City of Buffalo)

Florida: Broward County will finance $184.7 million, 2% tourism tax.

Carolina: $20 million by the Hurricanes, $22 million ($48 million financing by hotel tax) by Wake County and the City of Raleigh, $22 million by NC State, $18 million by State of North Carolina.

So not all of you listed are privately fianced, while some are. Most in the NHL or not. I'm just saying it's not likely for an owner to come to town and just put down 290 million for an arena. Can it happen? Sure....but it's not likely.

Heck most of the newer buildings at least in the states were all publicy financed in someway or another.

Your making it sound like bond or bank debt is a hand-out. It is capital.

 

[skullman80]

Your making it sound like bond or bank debt is a hand-out. It is capital.

I was just pointing out that most arenas were not fully privately financed...nothing more nothing less.

Really I don't care how the Pens get an arena built, It just needs done.

 

[DCL72]

Anyway, that doesn't bother me, I'm sure the NHL won't send a team in Quebec. They are not half good fans as they say they are.

If I recall, the problem was never with the fans, but rather lack of premium revenues from luxury boxes and the like. I believe the owner (Aubut?) tried to arrange for the government to build a new arena, but with no luck, and hence, the move to Colorado.

As another posted, minor hockey is drawing huge crowds in Quebec City, so if a new ownership group were able to put together a workable arena, I think Quebec would in fact be a viable market. Definetely more viable than some US markets.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

I've heard there are proposals for a new Madison Square Garden located to the west of the existing one.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

As another posted, minor hockey is drawing huge crowds in Quebec City, so if a new ownership group were able to put together a workable arena, I think Quebec would in fact be a viable market. Definetely more viable than some US markets.

I agree but not more viable than Pittsburgh.

 

[lubomirvaic77]

They won't just go for a strong market, they will go for the STRONGEST market, which sadly isn't either winnipeg or quebec. Las Vegas, Houston and Kansas City are all much stronger areas for an NHL team then quebec and winnipeg.also the taxes in the us are much lower so even if Vegas and quebec drew similar crowds vegas would still make more ( this is thanks to u idiots in ontario electing the freakin liberals so many times) so Canadain hockey fans will just have to be satisfied with the fact that the oilers and ottawa are safe and that we even have 6teams.

 

[HandshakeLine]

They won't just go for a strong market, they will go for the STRONGEST market, which sadly isn't either winnipeg or quebec. Las Vegas, Houston and Kansas City are all much stronger areas for an NHL team then quebec and winnipeg.also the taxes in the us are much lower so even if Vegas and quebec drew similar crowds vegas would still make more ( this is thanks to u idiots in ontario electing the freakin liberals so many times) so Canadain hockey fans will just have to be satisfied with the fact that the oilers and ottawa are safe and that we even have 6teams.

Vegas isn't going to get a team any time soon, I think. There's not enough public support, nor the infastructure necessary for it yet. Plus the mayor of Las Vegas is a total flake, so screw him.

Houston and Kansas City make excellent ideas for expansion teams, but they'd probably be on par with Pittsburgh as locations for a francise and may be hampered by the fact there's no established fanbase.

 

[operasen]

Somehow the Kansas City Penquins just doesn't reach it for me...

 

[Danny__K]

If they can get +12,000 fans for a Junior team, there is no doubt, they can fill a 18,000-19,000 arena for a NHL team of their own .

with junior ticket prices perhaps, with NHL prices? perhaps not,

 

[Danny__K]

All the Canadian teams built there own rinks with no hand-outs, Ottawa even had to build the exit from the highway to get to the building. Do not know about all the U.S. cities but I do know Philly, Boston, Chicago, L.A., to name a few did actually build there own rinks.

pst. I'm pretty sure the flames didn't pay for theirs.

- The Saddledome was completed in 1983 at a cost of about $100 million. The province and the city each contributed $31.5 million, the federal government $29.7 million and the 1988 local Olympic organizing committee provided $5 million.

but then again the flames don't own their building, but lease it.

 

[Vincent_TheGreat]

No team is moving from the US to Canada. The League will not allow it. If the Penguins do in fact move from Pittsburgh they will go to Houston or Kansas City. Personally I think at the end of the day they will stay in Pitt.

Uh yeah they would allow it, and Winnipeg, Quebec City and Hamilton would be well above Kansas and Houston. Get real!

 

[HackandLube]

Vegas isn't going to get a team any time soon, I think. There's not enough public support, nor the infastructure necessary for it yet. Plus the mayor of Las Vegas is a total flake, so screw him.

Houston and Kansas City make excellent ideas for expansion teams, but they'd probably be on par with Pittsburgh as locations for a francise and may be hampered by the fact there's no established fanbase.

The Flames ECHL affiliate is the Las Vegas Wranglers.

They have 12:00 midnight games to accomodate the "night" life schedule of Vegas.

 

[Pens75]

It didn't work, get over it, move the teams from the crappy markets to ones that appreciate hockey. The dogs are bringing down the rest of the league.

Pitts to Quebec city

Another clueless poster, and being from Canada makes it even worse...

- Did you know Pittsburgh was the birthplace of professional hockey?

- Did you know Pittsburgh was the 2nd NHL team in the U.S.?

- Did you know Pittsburgh was in the international pro league when the NHL was an amateur league?

- Did you know Canadian players used to come to Pittsburgh to play because they had the best artifical ice in North America?

- Did you know 40,000 Penguin Fans showed up at the airport at 2:00 AM to greet their team returning home with the Stanley Cup?

I'll bet there is a lot you don't know about Pittsburgh's hockey history, or your own hockey history for that matter, as it would seem. How about a history lesson...

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=198796