Peak/Prime Lemieux vs. Gretzky - Adjusted

[BraveCanadian]

Strange. There goes that theory. I think that Edmonton receiving fewer PPs because they often had the lead is true

I do think there is a tendency by referees to give the underdog more opportunities too.

 

[blogofmike]

Wayne Gretzky was in a good situation to win in Edmonton, but Mario Lemieux was in a pretty good situation to pile up points. Having tons of powerplays (which happened with or without Mario playing) and getting to monopolize that PP time won't hurt your point totals.

It's almost the ideal environment to put up points, even if it's a mediocre environment to win championships (until 1990-91, of course).

Again in Gretzky's best three year stretch (3 200+ years from 84-86, 141 PP points on 906 team PPO), Edmonton saw fewer PPO than Lemieux's Penguins in Lemieux's best two year stretch (367 points in 88 and 89, with 159 PP points on 991 team PPO).

And this was a boost in production solely due to PPO. So long as we're dispelling Lemieux myths about drawing penalties, we can add that Lemieux wasn't any more productive than Gretzky on the PP either. He just had a large volume of PPO.

 

[blogofmike]

Strange. There goes that theory. I think that Edmonton receiving fewer PPs because they often had the lead is true, but I have no idea why Pittsburgh generally received more than most teams if it wasn't due to Lemieux getting fouled.

Look at the division. Patrick teams had high PPO all the time, except NYI.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Wayne Gretzky was in a good situation to win in Edmonton, but Mario Lemieux was in a pretty good situation to pile up points. Having tons of powerplays (which happened with or without Mario playing) and getting to monopolize that PP time won't hurt your point totals.

It's almost the ideal environment to put up points, even if it's a mediocre environment to win championships (until 1990-91, of course).

Again in Gretzky's best three year stretch (3 200+ years from 84-86, 141 PP points on 906 team PPO), Edmonton saw fewer PPO than Lemieux's Penguins in Lemieux's best two year stretch (367 points in 88 and 89, with 159 PP points on 991 team PPO).

And this was a boost in production solely due to PPO. So long as we're dispelling Lemieux myths about drawing penalties, we can add that Lemieux wasn't any more productive than Gretzky on the PP either. He just had a large volume of PPO.

Good point.

I think Lemieux was the best powerplay player ever - in large part due to his complete selection of shots and ability with them, his wing span and ability 1 on 1 down low or off the boards - but he sure got a lot of practice at it, too.

Gretzky was right there, though, how could he not be with that vision and extra ice available?

 

[blogofmike]

Good point.

I think Lemieux was the best powerplay player ever - in large part due to his complete selection of shots and ability with them, his wing span and ability 1 on 1 down low or off the boards - but he sure got a lot of practice at it, too.

Gretzky was right there, though, how could he not be with that vision and extra ice available?

It's a valid opinion to believe that Lemieux was the best PP player. It's a misinterpretation of the facts to believe he was the best by a mile. Large PP point totals are mostly due to higher PP usage (Lemieux's PPGF/tmPPGF is usually very high, even by star centre standards) and a very high number of PPO.

Conversely, Gretzky was more likely to watch a PP from the bench (not a ton, but much more than Lemieux) and his prime was marked by lower PPO, thus explaining why his best PP point totals come in a Los Angeles Kings uniform instead of the stretch where Edmonton hit 25% on the PP every year.

 

[Ogopogo*]

The issue with this (and it's a common one) is that you are adjusting based on league average scoring, while the percentage of offense created by first liners increased dramatically in the early 90s. Sound confusing?

In other words, scoring from depth players plummeted, while scoring from first liners declined but to a lesser extent. So first line players from the 80s will see their scoring numbers "over adjusted" by formulas that are based off the league average.

It's why the alternatives like Vs2 and its derivative VsX were created specifically for first line type players.

1992-93 is the perfect example - more 100 point scorers than any other year in history, yet league average scoring was quite a bit lower than at any point in the 1980s.

Excellent points. Margin of dominance over the league is how you measure between seasons and Gretzky is well above Lemieux when you look at it accurately. Nobody can touch the 1986-87 season where Gretzky won the scoring title by 69%. Lemieux's greatest season saw a 18% margin - not even close to Gretzky. Lemieux isn't even that close to Howe's best season of a 34% margin.

 

[Plural]

Excellent points. Margin of dominance over the league is how you measure between seasons and Gretzky is well above Lemieux when you look at it accurately. Nobody can touch the 1986-87 season where Gretzky won the scoring title by 69%. Lemieux's greatest season saw a 18% margin - not even close to Gretzky. Lemieux isn't even that close to Howe's best season of a 34% margin.

To be fair, Lemieux did face a tough competition in his 199 point year. I would probably exclude Gretzky from that scoring race and look at the lead over Yzerman. Which then becomes 44 points. That is amazing too. But I agree on the ida that Gretzky is ahead of Lemieux in offensive dominance. By a fair margin too.

 

[Ogopogo*]

To be fair, Lemieux did face a tough competition in his 199 point year. I would probably exclude Gretzky from that scoring race and look at the lead over Yzerman. Which then becomes 44 points. That is amazing too. But I agree on the ida that Gretzky is ahead of Lemieux in offensive dominance. By a fair margin too.

Even taking Gretzky out of the mix, Lemieux beat Yzerman by 28%. Gretzky's 69% margin was a season that included Lemieux. Every season has tough competition, Gretzky just made that competition look weak many times because he was so good.

 

[seventieslord]

mergint three gretzky/lemieux coparison threads.

 

[bobholly39]

One thing i've always wondered:

Gretzky vs Lemieux never went "head to head" in a season at their peak did they?

By the time Lemieux reached that "extra level", Gretzky was already on the decline, correct?


I'd have loved to see a peek Gretzky vs peek Lemieux go at it.With the head to head competition and possibility of breaking records, i wonder how many points that adds to their resume. could Gretzky have gone above 215/212? Could Mario have gone above 199?

 

[The Panther]

One thing i've always wondered:

Gretzky vs Lemieux never went "head to head" in a season at their peak did they?

Sure they did. There was only 5 years between them in age. In 1985-86, everyone was already getting hyped on 'Gretzky vs. Lemieux' (though Gretzky beat Lemieux by 74 points) and they only played each other 3 times. By 1987-88, Mario had just about reached Wayne's level. In 1988, Wayne went to L.A., Mario won the scoring title outright (not accounting for Gretzky's missed games the year before) for the first time, but Gretzky was still in the old 'Smythe' division so they still played each other only 3 times a year. They also met at least several times on ice in 1989-90 and 1990-91. After that, we can probably say Gretzky's peak was more-or-less over.

I'd have loved to see a peek Gretzky vs peek Lemieux go at it.

I've said this before -- the real tragedy (no disrespect to the old North Stars) is that L.A. didn't beat Edmonton in 1991. They should have -- they were clearly the better team that season (in goal-differential they were the #1 team in the NHL) -- but they lost partly due to key injuries at the worst possible time and a couple of OT-games that didn't go their way. I think L.A. would have beaten Minnesota in the third round, and then we would have had a Mario/Pens vs. Gretzky/Kings Stanley Cup Final. Too bad it never happened, eh?

 

[bobholly39]

Sure they did. There was only 5 years between them in age. In 1985-86, everyone was already getting hyped on 'Gretzky vs. Lemieux' (though Gretzky beat Lemieux by 74 points) and they only played each other 3 times. By 1987-88, Mario had just about reached Wayne's level. In 1988, Wayne went to L.A., Mario won the scoring title outright (not accounting for Gretzky's missed games the year before) for the first time, but Gretzky was still in the old 'Smythe' division so they still played each other only 3 times a year. They also met at least several times on ice in 1989-90 and 1990-91. After that, we can probably say Gretzky's peak was more-or-less over.

I've said this before -- the real tragedy (no disrespect to the old North Stars) is that L.A. didn't beat Edmonton in 1991. They should have -- they were clearly the better team that season (in goal-differential they were the #1 team in the NHL) -- but they lost partly due to key injuries at the worst possible time and a couple of OT-games that didn't go their way. I think L.A. would have beaten Minnesota in the third round, and then we would have had a Mario/Pens vs. Gretzky/Kings Stanley Cup Final. Too bad it never happened, eh?

The idea of them going head to head in the playoffs does sound amazing.

I was more refering to head to head in thr scoring title race in a season though.

Lemieuxs best seasons he clearly outscored Gretzky and vice versa. Would have been nice to see lemieuxs year of 199 happen the same year as Gretzkys 215: does it cause either/or to even raise their game an extra level to go even above and beyond? That would have been a sight to see

I think that by the time Lemieux started hitting his highest pace Gretzky was already slowing down. And when Gretzky did it - Lemieux hadnt quite reached that height yet as he got off to a slower career start than Gretzky

 

[The Panther]

I see what you mean. I guess the closest we might have come to that was 1987-88 (if Gretzky had been healthy, but then he might have won by 15-18 points) or maybe 1990-91, if Lemieux had been healthy.

A footnote to those peak years is 1996-97, Gretzky's first with New York. There was a point that season, around mid-December if I recall, when Gretzky was leading the NHL in scoring. Obviously, Lemieux heated up (around then, I think), and in the end pipped Wayne by 25 points and won his final scoring title. But I guess the middle of that season was the last time, ever, that the two of them were in the running together.

 

[squaleca]

i sometimes think if wayne avg 300 points a season over 5 straight years it still wouldnt be enough wayne vs mario peak isnt close

 

[squaleca]

and ill argue that wayne had the better supporting overall cast but in terms of lines who wayne played with on the ice vs who mario did ill say mario had the better supporting cast

 

[squaleca]

look at mario's plus minus stats

 

[Eisen]

Is "drawing penalties" a polite way of saying "diving"?

It can also mean that someone shadows you and crosses the line very often.