Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part IX: The Precursor [Mod warning in OP]

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

Pretty much all of these Laine thread.

No-one asked to put Laine into position where his personal stats got pumped up in expence of the team success.

Quite the contrary. When you utilize your best cannon properly, team will benefit most. Playing Ehlers and Laine (and Little) together serves no-ones interests at least unless Scheifele is in the middle of them as that is the only proven combination where Laine and Ehlers have been productive together.

Someone said he should go to the KHL if he continues to not play on the top line with Scheifele.

Fact of the matter is, Laine's not the best forward on this team, not even close really. I'll give him the best goal scorer but there is a lot more to hockey than that.

I've already agreed multiple times that LLE wasn't working as a line, no need to re hash that.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

And Connor has also played on the 4th line for extended periods.

And how many points has he put up when playing on the 4th line?

 

[Psych0dad]

You're kidding--he's a good goal scorer??? I never for a million years......

But seriously...it's not about his 5v5 offensive production, which is nothing special (lower P/60 than Connor, Perreault and close to Armia). It's about offensive ability vs defensive liability...and for my money, I would take any of the aforementioned 3 players above him 5v5.

Sincerely hope that changes in time.

[/QUOTE]

Then you ignore reality. Simple as that. Wheeler and Connor have been more of a defensive liability, it's actually very clear from both stats and eye test.

 

[Psych0dad]

Someone said he should go to the KHL if he continues to not play on the top line with Scheifele.

Fact of the matter is, Laine's not the best forward on this team, not even close really. I'll give him the best goal scorer but there is a lot more to hockey than that.

I've already agreed multiple times that LLE wasn't working as a line, no need to re hash that.

Scheif and Perreault are currently better forwards.

Not for long but hey, kid is 19.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Laine will have 90 points and lead the league in scoring next year.
Wheeler will take a secondary role I'm not worried.
Did the Jets waste Laine this year? Yes but I don't care if they win the cup. Laine is a superstar and will be one for the next twenty years. But as wheeler runs this team csw is a better fit than lsw. So win the cup this year let Wheeler go and let the team become Laine's

 

[Psych0dad]

Correction-he's the best PP goal scorer and will be kept on the PP, no doubt. Until his metrics improve 5v5 perhaps he needs to be developed like any other mere mortal 19 year old NHLer.

No one is crucifying anyone, least of all Patrick. He's a phenomenal 19 year old sniper. But, he is as yet incomplete as a player. That's all. The critique of...irrationally-exuberant posts claiming he other than that is what has led us down this bumpy road.

It's neither. Maurice tends to protect his players and emphasize the positive. If anything, this should dispell the notion that Laine is in his "doghouse". If anything, Patrik has been given too much opportunity in the top 6 relative to his 5v5 game. If he is played lower down in the lineup, perhaps it is to shelter him and allow him to regain confidence. The idea that, in so doing, Maurice, or any Jets coach, would be "punishing", rather than developing, one of their most valuable assets, is silly.

If metrics really do matter, WTF are Wheeler and Connor doing in first?

 

[Psych0dad]

Did the Jets waste Laine this year? Yes but I don't care if they win the cup.

Nobody wins the cup by sabotaging their own chances of winning. Not using your lineup to its full potential is just that. I do care because they won't win this way. Intelligence has to take over the staff first and as we have seen, that's not in the cards.

 

[tacogeoff]

Then you ignore reality. Simple as that. Wheeler and Connor have been more of a defensive liability, it's actually very clear from both stats and eye test.

So IF you want to ignore reality and determine lineups by "feelings" then I think you might just have a job at the Jets coaching staff because they also don't understand anything about analytics or coaching or hockey. Send a resume if you are also one of those people.[/QUOTE]

smh. but here we sit at 33-15-9. they must know something about hockey? no?

A little salty. Don't worry. Laine will shine when the time comes. He is young with a long career ahead of him.

 

[BB88]

Those are definitely realistic numbers. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You'll learn.

And why is it impossible to discuss when other people have differing views? Have you ever lived with other people it's kinda one of the first things you need to learn.

As I said, impossible to have conversations here.

Laine is not the best, or one of the best players in the league, no matter how you like to think so.

 

[Duke749]

Don't you think?

A little too ironic...

It’s really funny how you want other people to be open minded but every time things don’t go great for Laine you revert back to the exact same arguments.

 

[Duke749]

And how many points has he put up when playing on the 4th line?

Not my point. My point is that Connor has played his share of games further down the line up than Laine. Truth is Connor is just further along in his development as opposed to Laine.

 

[ps241]

Sorry I can't follow this thread that closely because of what it's turned into. Every time I drop by I always regret it. We should just move it to the main boards and I wouldn't be tempted to click on it

Yea I think it is more of a main board thread based on the arguments.

 

[DashingDane]

If metrics really do matter, WTF are Wheeler and Connor doing in first?

If we are having an honest conversation about metrics then you also have to look at who they match up against. ELL is mostly playing 3rd lines, CSW not so much....

 

[Psych0dad]

If we are having an honest conversation about metrics then you also have to look at who they match up against. ELL is mostly playing 3rd lines, CSW not so much....

ELL is garbage against anyone offensively but they are better defensively than CSW.

And Laine was doing much better in 1st than in ELL so how does that make sense?

Yes we need an honest conversation and it starts with not making excuses for veterans for their flaws. Laine definitely has things to work on but they are physical things that will sort itself out with time and work. Nothing will fix the hockey IQ issues that some other players have.

 

[Psych0dad]

Not my point. My point is that Connor has played his share of games further down the line up than Laine. Truth is Connor is just further along in his development as opposed to Laine.

What?

Excuse me?

I mean he is of course further in his development because he is older but Laine is head and shoulders ahead as a hockey player already. Laine leads the team in goals. Laine scored 36 last year and just shy of ppg because Maurice killed his calder run with ELL. Two years older Connor played in the AHL.

So ahead in physical development but Laine is a totally different pedigree so he has been ahead of Connor as a player the moment he stepped onto MTS center ice before last season.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

That's what happens when you try to appease everyone and end this stupid argument. It's the same over and over again. Can't we move on to discuss something else? Like if you were Laine what would the most important thing you should work on in the offseason such as his speed.

I'd really like for him to get a figure skating coach like Barkov & Granlund did last summer. Someone needs to hook him up.

https://httpcache0-80682-cachedown9...er Barkovin luistelutreenit_360p_1d1fe9ef.mp4

The video's in Finnish, but it shows a bit of what they did. It's basically lots of edgework training & finding the skaters center of gravity. Barkov praises it highly, says that "he hasn't really felt what good skating feels like before, but now it's starting to feel pretty good"

 

[TheJadePipe]

Laine will have 90 points and lead the league in scoring next year.
Wheeler will take a secondary role I'm not worried.
Did the Jets waste Laine this year? Yes but I don't care if they win the cup. Laine is a superstar and will be one for the next twenty years. But as wheeler runs this team csw is a better fit than lsw. So win the cup this year let Wheeler go and let the team become Laine's

I think the team is Chefs when Wheeler leaves not Laines

 

[Psych0dad]

I think the team is Chefs when Wheeler leaves not Laines

Doesn't matter whose anyone think it is. We can call it Tanevs jets if that makes someone happy.

But without major debilitating injuries Laine will be the MVP of the team very shortly, that much is clear. Chef wasn't an NHL player at Laines age. Chef has entered his prime, Laine is 3 years away from it.

 

[PhilJets]

Why to keep Ehlers and Laine together?

And why to waste not only the best goal scorer of the team but two best goal scorers for the team. Insanity.

2 of the best goal scorer in the league
Anyways the only problem i see is.

Maurice like Connor and Roslo north American game he loves those players so he tends to reward them quicker and longer leash. Laine and Ehlers Euro style. Not so much love
As one said
He tried Laine a few shift when Schiefele and Wheeler was dragging that line down he pulled the plug in a game .
With Roslo or Connor keep them .

The only thing thats keeping Laine and Ehlers above water is their pure skills. Getting all those points.

Yeah Wheeler is far worst that Laine at defensive end. But he shows supposedly hussle. Balls to the wall.
Ive seen blatant mistakes nore often from wheeler that resulted in goals against. And here we are complaining Laine was on the ice for all 3 goals last game.

I learned to come to grip last November that Schiefele and Wheeler are joint to the hip.
So who cares teams winning.

Laine can slot into 4th line score a goal and we will probably have complains about him.

Me im just happy we got Laine and Ehlers.
Without these 2 the team forward group looks average and theres no dynamic.

I think the team is Chefs when Wheeler leaves not Laines

It will be Chef's team but the face of the franchise in the league and Europe will be Laine. It starting already.


Go Laine!!!!
9 goals to reach 70 for career.
11 goals to match last year 36

What the heck! Score 16 more to get to 77!!!!

Make it all in the power play playing in the 4th line 10 minutes a game. 3 of those minutes are pp time. to make everybody happy.

Go Jets Go!!
Win the Cup

 

[hockey god]

ES Points/60

1. Kyle Connor 2.459
2. Mark Scheifele 2.387
3. Mathieu Perreault 2.298
4. Blake Wheeler 2.190
5. Matt Hendricks 2.093
6. Nikolaj Ehlers 2.080
7. Joel Armia 2.028
8. Jack Roslovic 1.992
9. Bryan Little 1.735
10. Patrik Laine 1.717
11. Adam Lowry 1.653
12. Andrew Copp 1.322
13. Marko Dano 1.315
14. Brandon Tanev 1.298
15. Brendan Lemieux 0.898
16. Nic Petan 0.768
17. Shawn Matthias 0.728

+/-

1. Mark Scheifele +10
2. Brandon Tanev +9
3. Andrew Copp +8
4. Blake Wheeler +7
5. Mathieu Perreault +7
6. Joel Armia +5
7. Adam Lowry +4
8. Bryan Little +2
9. Brendan Lemieux +2
10. Kyle Connor +1
11. Nikolaj Ehlers +0
12. Jack Roslovic +0
13. Nic Petan +0
14. Matt Hendricks -1
15. Shawn Matthias -1
16. Marko Dano -3
17. Patrik Laine -5

Defensive zone starts

1. Shawn Matthias 65.2%
2. Brendan Lemieux 64.7%
3. Adam Lowry 60.8%
4. Marko Dano 60.6%
5. Andrew Copp 59.3%
6. Matt Hendricks 58.8%
7. Joel Armia 57.7%
8. Brandon Tanev 58.6%
9. Nic Petan 54.8%
10. Jack Roslovic 48.9%
11. Nikolaj Ehlers 47.7%
12. Mark Scheifele 47.5%
13. Mathieu Perreault 46.9%
14. Bryan Little 46.0%
15. Blake Wheeler 45.3%
16. Kyle Connor 44.8%
17. Patrik Laine 40.7%

Easiest minutes but his ES stats are not very impressive.. 3rd/4th line is the right place for him at the moment. I hope he can improve his ES game in the future and earn his spot in top-6 again. Not easy tho, IMO Ehlers and Armia should be first in line.

 

[BB88]

I'd really like for him to get a figure skating coach like Barkov & Granlund did last summer. Someone needs to hook him up.

https://httpcache0-80682-cachedown9.dna.qbrick.com/80682-cachedown9/ncode/2017-08-18/Aleksander Barkovin luistelutreenit_360p_1d1fe9ef.mp4

The video's in Finnish, but it shows a bit of what they did. It's basically lots of edgework training & finding the skaters center of gravity. Barkov praises it highly, says that "he hasn't really felt what good skating feels like before, but now it's starting to feel pretty good"

It really shows in Barkovs game.

He's turned weakness into a strenght.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

It really shows in Barkovs game.

He's turned weakness into a strenght.

Yeah, watched Florida a bit last week and the guy is flying out there on the ice. Pretty incredible.

 

[BB88]

Yeah, watched Florida a bit last week and the guy is flying out there on the ice. Pretty incredible.

I've been impressed by how he can gain separation against good skater. The 1st steps and quick turns look pretty effortless, skating looks lighter and more energy saving. Which he needs with the minutes he's given at times in Florida.

Then just how it helps him controll the puck/game.

 

[PhilJets]

ES Points/60

1. Kyle Connor 2.459
2. Mark Scheifele 2.387
3. Mathieu Perreault 2.298
4. Blake Wheeler 2.190
5. Matt Hendricks 2.093
6. Nikolaj Ehlers 2.080
7. Joel Armia 2.028
8. Jack Roslovic 1.992
9. Bryan Little 1.735
10. Patrik Laine 1.717
11. Adam Lowry 1.653
12. Andrew Copp 1.322
13. Marko Dano 1.315
14. Brandon Tanev 1.298
15. Brendan Lemieux 0.898
16. Nic Petan 0.768
17. Shawn Matthias 0.728

+/-

1. Mark Scheifele +10
2. Brandon Tanev +9
3. Andrew Copp +8
4. Blake Wheeler +7
5. Mathieu Perreault +7
6. Joel Armia +5
7. Adam Lowry +4
8. Bryan Little +2
9. Brendan Lemieux +2
10. Kyle Connor +1
11. Nikolaj Ehlers +0
12. Jack Roslovic +0
13. Nic Petan +0
14. Matt Hendricks -1
15. Shawn Matthias -1
16. Marko Dano -3
17. Patrik Laine -5

Defensive zone starts

1. Shawn Matthias 65.2%
2. Brendan Lemieux 64.7%
3. Adam Lowry 60.8%
4. Marko Dano 60.6%
5. Andrew Copp 59.3%
6. Matt Hendricks 58.8%
7. Joel Armia 57.7%
8. Brandon Tanev 58.6%
9. Nic Petan 54.8%
10. Jack Roslovic 48.9%
11. Nikolaj Ehlers 47.7%
12. Mark Scheifele 47.5%
13. Mathieu Perreault 46.9%
14. Bryan Little 46.0%
15. Blake Wheeler 45.3%
16. Kyle Connor 44.8%
17. Patrik Laine 40.7%

Easiest minutes but his ES stats are not very impressive.. 3rd/4th line is the right place for him at the moment. I hope he can improve his ES game in the future and earn his spot in top-6 again. Not easy tho, IMO Ehlers and Armia should be first in line.

That is a flawed argument when you got matthias and lemiuex on top of that list.

If Armia should be first in line, then so does Tanev.

I still go for real stats goals assists power play goals short handed goals. The fun stats. Players get paid getting those. Otherwise hockey is no fun see Matthias with his 65% defensive zone starts gets 5m a year

Don't get me wrong those stats mentioned are good complimentary stats. Nice to know. To use and to assist to improve. But it doesnt tell how good or valuable players are.

Half glass full
Maurice is forcing Laine to drive his own line
Which is great and eventually he will come it. The kid talent is to great.
He already forced his way to helping the Jets be a top power play team in the league.

Kid is the youngest player on the team and he has more career goals than many of the Jets playing in Jets uniform.

Give it a break...

Enjoy the ride

Jets are winning

Go Jets Go

 

[Arthur Fonzarelli]

Then you ignore reality. Simple as that. Wheeler and Connor have been more of a defensive liability, it's actually very clear from both stats and eye test.

Wheelers a Hart candidate...that's reality.