Player Discussion: Patrik Laine Part IX: The Precursor [Mod warning in OP]

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TannedBum

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That is a flawed argument when you got matthias and lemiuex on top of that list.

If Armia should be first in line, then so does Tanev.

I still go for real stats goals assists power play goals short handed goals. The fun stats. Players get paid getting those. Otherwise hockey is no fun :) see Matthias with his 65% defensive zone starts gets 5m a year :)

Don't get me wrong those stats mentioned are good complimentary stats. Nice to know. To use and to assist to improve. But it doesnt tell how good or valuable players are.
Truth is sometimes tough to handle. Those stats are very real.

Speaking of flawed argument. Tanev's ES points/60 are BAD compared to Armia's.
 

PhilJets

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I think LAINE is the 4th best JETS player 1st 2 years in the league for both 1.0 and 2.0
Behind Hawerchuk, Selanne, Kovalchuk.

The top 3 - their deployments , they are use as the go to guy when they 1st started unlike Laine now. Even though those guys defensive sides are probably worst than Laine but they piled up the points.

Selanne is my all time favorite Jets, I got hook on NHL because of him. He was 22 years old.
Laine can still catch Kovalchuk.

Unless I'm forgetting someone from Thrashers history?
 
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TheJadePipe

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Mar 8, 2016
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2 of the best goal scorer in the league :)
Anyways the only problem i see is.

Maurice like Connor and Roslo north American game he loves those players so he tends to reward them quicker and longer leash. Laine and Ehlers Euro style. Not so much love :)
As one said
He tried Laine a few shift when Schiefele and Wheeler was dragging that line down he pulled the plug in a game .
With Roslo or Connor keep them .

The only thing thats keeping Laine and Ehlers above water is their pure skills. Getting all those points.

Yeah Wheeler is far worst that Laine at defensive end. But he shows supposedly hussle. Balls to the wall.
Ive seen blatant mistakes nore often from wheeler that resulted in goals against. And here we are complaining Laine was on the ice for all 3 goals last game.

I learned to come to grip last November that Schiefele and Wheeler are joint to the hip.
So who cares teams winning.

Laine can slot into 4th line score a goal and we will probably have complains about him.

Me im just happy we got Laine and Ehlers.
Without these 2 the team forward group looks average and theres no dynamic.




It will be Chef's team but the face of the franchise in the league and Europe will be Laine. It starting already.


Go Laine!!!!
9 goals to reach 70 for career.
11 goals to match last year 36

What the heck! Score 16 more to get to 77!!!!

Make it all in the power play playing in the 4th line 10 minutes a game. 3 of those minutes are pp time. :) to make everybody happy.

Go Jets Go!!
Win the Cup
Face of the franchise in Europe may be Laine, but don’t kid yourself, Chef is the face of the franchise in the League , Winnipeg and North America
 

PhilJets

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Face of the franchise in Europe may be Laine, but don’t kid yourself, Chef is the face of the franchise in the League , Winnipeg and North America
Im not kidding myself.
Check who gets the coverage and write ups.
I don't watch local channels. I watch US channels a lot.

Chef is the Winnipeg Jets future captain as it should be.

See kids who do they know and their favorite .We are talking about 2 different things.
You, saying what the Jets fans see as who is the most valuable. ( and you have a point )
The rest , what it is shaping up to be. Goal scorer.
They sell tickets on the road.

Unless Laine falls of the earth.
 
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hockey god

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Feb 15, 2018
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That is a flawed argument when you got matthias and lemiuex on top of that list.

If Armia should be first in line, then so does Tanev.

I still go for real stats goals assists power play goals short handed goals. The fun stats. Players get paid getting those. Otherwise hockey is no fun :) see Matthias with his 65% defensive zone starts gets 5m a year :)

Don't get me wrong those stats mentioned are good complimentary stats. Nice to know. To use and to assist to improve. But it doesnt tell how good or valuable players are.

Half glass full
Maurice is forcing Laine to drive his own line :)
Which is great and eventually he will come it. The kid talent is to great.
He already forced his way to helping the Jets be a top power play team in the league.

Kid is the youngest player on the team and he has more career goals than many of the Jets playing in Jets uniform.

Give it a break...

Enjoy the ride :)

Jets are winning :)

Go Jets Go
I didn't say that Matthias and Lemieux are the best players because they have the most defensive zone starts. I added that stat to give insights about what kind of ES minutes the Jets forwards are playing. You know this is the way how stats are most valuable for conversation, when you give different relevant stats in full context (Jets forwards).

To make myself more clear: Laine's ES production is not good enough compared to other top-9 Jet forwards and he's not very good in his own end either. The sheltered minutes just makes the difference more clear.
 

Ippenator

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I'd really like for him to get a figure skating coach like Barkov & Granlund did last summer. Someone needs to hook him up.

https://httpcache0-80682-cachedown9.dna.qbrick.com/80682-cachedown9/ncode/2017-08-18/Aleksander Barkovin luistelutreenit_360p_1d1fe9ef.mp4

The video's in Finnish, but it shows a bit of what they did. It's basically lots of edgework training & finding the skaters center of gravity. Barkov praises it highly, says that "he hasn't really felt what good skating feels like before, but now it's starting to feel pretty good"
You are most probably going to be disappointed with this still at least next off season. And most probably even one off season after that. He is going through the exact same development path that Barkov and Granlund did. This means that there will be the work still mostly done with bulking up for more explosiveness to the legs for an off season or two. There is absolutely no use in starting the polishing of the skating with those skating instructors until he is more or less done with the gaining of the explosiveness to his legs, as the co-ordination will be changing after all that much while still actively developing the muscles.

Barkov had his first three off seasons concentrated in this kind of training and Granlund even four off seasons, before they started practicing with the figure skating instructor. Granlund has had now only two off seasons with the figure skating coach and Barkov only one. Barkov had already great results with his skating last season compared to his previous seasons, so honestly some people believing that the skating training changed something amazingly in his skating are simply wrong. It was the consistent muscle training for explosiveness in his legs that still made the difference to his skating. The figure skating training last off season just polished his skating a bit. It seriously will not make as big a difference as some of you seem to think. It was the explosiveness to the muscles that both Barkov and Granlund very much needed, and it took them really at least three off seasons of very hard training to get anywhere with it. Both of them were having pretty bad acceleration until that. It is simply ignorant to expect Laine to really take a very different path than his friend Barkov, whom he talks with a lot about training.

I’m seriously not expecting Laine’s first steps to improve very much until still two seasons of hard off season training. How it could really improve so much quicker than Barkov’s or Granlund’s? Those guys had huge problems with their acceleration and the constant stop and go play that the NHL is about. For Barkov the problems were very visible for his first three seasons and for Granlund even four seasons. Sure they had some development in it even during those years, but it was very small and gradual. There is no shortcut in this, and as Laine’s problem is definitely the same that Barkov and Granlund had, which was the lack of explosiveness in their legs, that needs very much to be fixed with hard training, and will probably take still two off seasons to really start to improve his acceleration.

Just try to have some patience, as no figure skating coaching will at the moment suddenly give any real help to Laine’s skating when the real problem is the lack of explosiveness.
 
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Ippenator

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Truth is sometimes tough to handle. Those stats are very real.

Speaking of flawed argument. Tanev's ES points/60 are BAD compared to Armia's.
Yet he is still the clearly best goalscorer of the whole Jets. And he practically leaves all the other Jets in the dust in goalscoring - Armia gets even extremely creamed in this area. And the last time I checked hockey was still about scoring goals. Just use Laine right with the right linemates and you will get a very good scoring line which can be very good and balanced by other means too. Don’t want to do that for some strange reason? Well, then you get what we have right now in Laine. A guy whom can for sure score goals, but more on the power play, and whom can’t use his strengths still often enough to help his team in winning. To me this kind of usage is simply piss poor coaching. But I guess as long as the wins keep coming even with some luck, everyone here is happy.
 

grieves

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Apr 27, 2016
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ES Points/60

1. Kyle Connor 2.459
2. Mark Scheifele 2.387
3. Mathieu Perreault 2.298
4. Blake Wheeler 2.190
5. Matt Hendricks 2.093
6. Nikolaj Ehlers 2.080
7. Joel Armia 2.028
8. Jack Roslovic 1.992
9. Bryan Little 1.735
10. Patrik Laine 1.717
11. Adam Lowry 1.653
12. Andrew Copp 1.322
13. Marko Dano 1.315
14. Brandon Tanev 1.298
15. Brendan Lemieux 0.898
16. Nic Petan 0.768
17. Shawn Matthias 0.728

+/-

1. Mark Scheifele +10
2. Brandon Tanev +9
3. Andrew Copp +8
4. Blake Wheeler +7
5. Mathieu Perreault +7
6. Joel Armia +5
7. Adam Lowry +4
8. Bryan Little +2
9. Brendan Lemieux +2
10. Kyle Connor +1
11. Nikolaj Ehlers +0
12. Jack Roslovic +0
13. Nic Petan +0
14. Matt Hendricks -1
15. Shawn Matthias -1
16. Marko Dano -3
17. Patrik Laine -5

Defensive zone starts

1. Shawn Matthias 65.2%
2. Brendan Lemieux 64.7%
3. Adam Lowry 60.8%
4. Marko Dano 60.6%
5. Andrew Copp 59.3%
6. Matt Hendricks 58.8%
7. Joel Armia 57.7%
8. Brandon Tanev 58.6%
9. Nic Petan 54.8%
10. Jack Roslovic 48.9%
11. Nikolaj Ehlers 47.7%
12. Mark Scheifele 47.5%
13. Mathieu Perreault 46.9%
14. Bryan Little 46.0%
15. Blake Wheeler 45.3%
16. Kyle Connor 44.8%
17. Patrik Laine 40.7%

Easiest minutes but his ES stats are not very impressive.. 3rd/4th line is the right place for him at the moment. I hope he can improve his ES game in the future and earn his spot in top-6 again. Not easy tho, IMO Ehlers and Armia should be first in line.

This is again stat-watching without context. We need to watch out for it.

Look who is right above Laine's name on that list. Bryan Little. What do they have in common? They are the most affected by being in the offensive black hole that is ELL, and not getting circulated in other lines. They had an equally short stint in other lines when Chef went down, but that was not for long. And of course PLE for a short while in the beginning of the season when Ehlers was in the first line.
 
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Asiantuntija

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This was really good choice to drop Laine down to the 3rd line. Now we are able to see does he have any kind of chemistry with Ehlers. We know that they don't have if Little is on the middle, but it could be totally different story with Copp. Thank you PoMo!!
 

kelsier

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This was really good choice to drop Laine down to the 3rd line. Now we are able to see does he have any kind of chemistry with Ehlers. We know that they don't have if Little is on the middle, but it could be totally different story with Copp. Thank you PoMo!!

Ha, "indeed". The best goal scorer to the 3rd line? Welcome to the Jets!

We already know how it works with Ehlers and we already know how it works with Little. He needed a playmaker and Copp isn't that. Outside of Scheifele, Armia could be an improvement (at least better than most I figure). So could maybe Roslovic, nevermind Wheelers, yet for 'unexplained reason' all are off the table. Why the two Finns have never been even tried out together despite of being in the same team for the past 1,5 seasons is quite something as well. They obviously wanted the team to win while Laine's number kept affordable for the foreseeable future. When keeping these things in mind, so far the results have been quite outstanding. Only with the expense of the humble young man from Finland of course.
 

grieves

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Apr 27, 2016
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Ha, "indeed". The best goal scorer to the 3rd line? Welcome to the Jets!

We already know how it works with Ehlers and we already know how it works with Little. He needed a playmaker and Copp isn't that. Outside of Scheifele, Armia could be an improvement (at least better than most I figure). So could maybe Roslovic, nevermind Wheelers, yet for 'unexplained reason' all are off the table. Why the two Finns have never been even tried out together despite of being in the same team for the past 1,5 seasons is quite something as well. They obviously wanted the team to win while Laine's number kept affordable for the foreseeable future. When keeping these things in mind, so far the results have been quite outstanding. Only with the expense of the humble young man from Finland of course.

Well at least it will be a fresh disappointment. It will take a while until we will want to rip our eyeballs out from watching the same dysfunctional line month after month.

And who knows, maybe they'll figure something out. Chemistry can work in weird ways.
 

Ippenator

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Jan 6, 2016
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This was really good choice to drop Laine down to the 3rd line. Now we are able to see does he have any kind of chemistry with Ehlers. We know that they don't have if Little is on the middle, but it could be totally different story with Copp. Thank you PoMo!!
It wouldn’t honestly need any more of trying if Ehlers and Laine have any chemistry on the ice, as they just don’t have it, at all. Only when they had a playmaking center like Scheifele they could play in the same line pretty ok. But even that line was not clearly as good as Perreault-Scheifele-Laine was.

Ehlers and Laine neither are really playmakers, and they both need one in their line very, very much. Ehlers lacks the vision and the skills to make quick and accurate passes and although Laine has pretty much those skills, he unfortunately lacks the capability to hold on to the puck long enough to be able to do well controlled playmaking. But just simply as they are both right now, they are absolutely Kryptonite to each others, and definitely need to play at least with a playmaking center, if they are on the same line. Preferably though Batman and Robin should play on separate lines.
 
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TiimuSeLaine

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Oct 23, 2016
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I'd really like for him to get a figure skating coach like Barkov & Granlund did last summer. Someone needs to hook him up.

https://httpcache0-80682-cachedown9.dna.qbrick.com/80682-cachedown9/ncode/2017-08-18/Aleksander Barkovin luistelutreenit_360p_1d1fe9ef.mp4

The video's in Finnish, but it shows a bit of what they did. It's basically lots of edgework training & finding the skaters center of gravity. Barkov praises it highly, says that "he hasn't really felt what good skating feels like before, but now it's starting to feel pretty good"

Sasha was a good skater before, but this season he has been noticeably better. It's beautiful to watch really. I hope, and I'd guess, Sasha has mentioned about the training to Laine in between call outs in CoD. I'm sure Laine has a solid game plan in regards what he will be focusing in the off-season, one can't focus on all the aspects in one off-season. It's a process. Last year it was strength (which makes sense considering his age), and I'd venture a guess that this summer (or maybe not in the upcoming, but soon) he focuses on other aspects.
 
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Ippenator

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Sasha was a good skater before, but this season he has been noticeably better. It's beautiful to watch really. I hope, and I'd guess Sasha, has mentioned about the training to Laine in between call outs in CoD. I'm sure Laine has a solid game plan in regards what he will be focusing in the off-season, one can't focus on all the aspect in one off-season. It's a process. Last year it was strength (which makes sense considering his age), and I'd venture a guess that this summer he focuses on other aspects.
Barkov was having still pretty bad first steps until two seasons ago. I have been watching him play for at least 20 games per every season that he has been in the NHL, and I can say that there was the clear visible bigger development in his skating in the beginning of last season. Sure there was smaller gradual development even before that, but the real visible improvement with his first steps came in just for 2016-2017 season. Before that his steps were pretty much what Laine has at the moment.

You don’t improve your explosiveness for clearly better first steps just in one off season. It just does not happen. It didn’t happen with Barkov and it didn’t happen with Granlund, and I’m practically sure that it won’t happen with Laine either. Bulking up the explosive strength to the legs is an important part of improving your skating, so you need to get that foundation done first at the level that will give you even any chance of having explosive steps. They all know how to skate already, so all the skating coaching is still more about polishing the end result and making the skating more economical. This is what Barkov has said even himself for being the main reason for getting the figure skating training.

Laine will for sure start that kind of training at some point, but I just seriously doubt it will happen yet the next off season. Probably the off season after that. Obviously he has still a lot of work to do to gain more explosive power to his legs. The focus in his training was in that in the last off season, but unfortunately he has as much work to do in that aspect, as Barkov and Granlund had too. Still two or three off seasons of very hard work.
 

JetsWillFly4Ever

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Ha, "indeed". The best goal scorer to the 3rd line? Welcome to the Jets!

We already know how it works with Ehlers and we already know how it works with Little. He needed a playmaker and Copp isn't that. Outside of Scheifele, Armia could be an improvement (at least better than most I figure). So could maybe Roslovic, nevermind Wheelers, yet for 'unexplained reason' all are off the table. Why the two Finns have never been even tried out together despite of being in the same team for the past 1,5 seasons is quite something as well. They obviously wanted the team to win while Laine's number kept affordable for the foreseeable future. When keeping these things in mind, so far the results have been quite outstanding. Only with the expense of the humble young man from Finland of course.
This is ridiculous. Maurice is not going; 'alright guys lets figure out a way to win but we're going to have to stop Patty from scoring so many goals'.

The reality is he is just not that good, and the coach isn't going to cater to his every need to pad his stats. Having one line do the vast majority of our scoring got us nowhere last year. Good teams have scoring throughout their lineup, not concentrated on one line.
 
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grieves

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This is ridiculous. Maurice is not going; 'alright guys lets figure out a way to win but we're going to have to stop Patty from scoring so many goals'.

The reality is he is just not that good, and the coach isn't going to cater to his every need to pad his stats. Having one line do the vast majority of our scoring got us nowhere last year. Good teams have scoring throughout their lineup, not concentrated on one line.

That's complete BS. If Wheeler and Connor are good enough for that line, so is Laine.

This argument maybe could have some merit right in the beginning of the season, but Laine has been playing the best hockey of his career last 20 games or so.
 
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Kaako Kappo

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This is ridiculous. Maurice is not going; 'alright guys lets figure out a way to win but we're going to have to stop Patty from scoring so many goals'.

The reality is he is just not that good, and the coach isn't going to cater to his every need to pad his stats. Having one line do the vast majority of our scoring got us nowhere last year. Good teams have scoring throughout their lineup, not concentrated on one line.
19-Year Old NHL Players - Cumulative Regular Season Stats

He's just not that good. Just not that good. Holy f***ing f***.

What's up with this thread and these stupid hot takes? Laine is f***ing metal, and no Roslovic, Kyle Connor or Joel Armia is better than him or will ever be better than him.
 
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JetsWillFly4Ever

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19-Year Old NHL Players - Cumulative Regular Season Stats

He's just not that good. Just not that good. Holy ****ing ****.

What's up with this thread and these stupid hot takes? Laine is ****ing metal, and no Roslovic, Kyle Connor or Joel Armia is better than him or will ever be better than him.
He is at best, our 4th best forward 5v5. Scheif, Wheeler, Perreault are all better, Ehlers and him are close, could argue either way.

I have never once said Connor, Roslovic or Armia are better than him. In fact I was arguing earlier in this thread that they are clearly not.

Not sure why you are posting a 19 year old NHL players stats link, I don't care how old he is when discussing how good he is. He is absolutely amazing for his age, no argument there.

This thread is going nowhere fast. I love Laine and hope he improves his game 5v5, he really needs to if he is going to be considered a superstar or even a star in this league. Right now he is a one trick pony.
 

Kaako Kappo

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He is at best, our 4th best forward 5v5. Scheif, Wheeler, Perreault are all better, Ehlers and him are close, could argue either way.

I have never once said Connor, Roslovic or Armia are better than him. In fact I was arguing earlier in this thread that they are clearly not.

Not sure why you are posting a 19 year old NHL players stats link, I don't care how old he is when discussing how good he is. He is absolutely amazing for his age, no argument there.

This thread is going nowhere fast. I love Laine and hope he improves his game 5v5, he really needs to if he is going to be considered a superstar or even a star in this league. Right now he is a one trick pony.
I am linking it because you're saying Laine is not that good, when he's #22 in ALL TIME 19 YEAR OLD SCORING (Every single player who ever played in the NHL), and will be at around #15 when the season's over. So yes, he literally is that good.
 

grieves

silent prayer
Apr 27, 2016
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He is at best, our 4th best forward 5v5. Scheif, Wheeler, Perreault are all better, Ehlers and him are close, could argue either way.

I have never once said Connor, Roslovic or Armia are better than him. In fact I was arguing earlier in this thread that they are clearly not.

Not sure why you are posting a 19 year old NHL players stats link, I don't care how old he is when discussing how good he is. He is absolutely amazing for his age, no argument there.

This thread is going nowhere fast. I love Laine and hope he improves his game 5v5, he really needs to if he is going to be considered a superstar or even a star in this league. Right now he is a one trick pony.

I don't know. I'd say Laine and Wheeler are quite close. They just have different strengths. For all the amazing stuff Wheeler does, he does some pretty un-amazing stuff too and defensively is quite poor. Offensively he could not reach Laine and Chef even though he does make up for it with his versatility and ability to drive offense. And those penalties on top, whereas Laine is barely ever in the box.

Tough comparison.
 
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