Player Discussion: Patrik Laine - MOD WARNING IN OP

[Ippenator]

Here is article on another big lad who found skating training useful for himself


Noel combines size, strength with improving skating

Oshawa forward reminds scouts of Jets captain Wheeler


The term raw talent can be overused in the NHL scouting fraternity, but it might be the best way to accurately depict right wing Serron Noel of Oshawa of the Ontario Hockey League.

That's because the only specialized training Noel has had since joining Oshawa two seasons ago has been with former figure skater and current skating coach Shelley Kettles at Bell Sensplex in Ottawa.

Noel (6-foot-5, 200 pounds) has the size and strength that NHL teams crave in a blue-chip prospect, but what might surprise some is that his skating is close to being NHL ready.

"I started the skating lessons last summer, twice a week," Noel said. "I found tremendous improvement and feel more stable on my skates compared to last year."

Noel was introduced to Kettles by his longtime minor hockey coach, former NHL defenseman Jason York. Noel considers York his most influential hockey coach.
"He coached me for six years and it was an amazing experience," Noel said. "He kind of took me in when I wasn't a great skater and kept working with me in spring tournaments and summer camps."

"I told him, 'Your kid is going to be one heck of a player when he gets older,'" York said. "You hear the word raw used a lot, but the thing that really intrigues scouts about Serron is the fact the skating lessons have been the only specialized training he's had his entire life. I think (Kettles) tweaked a few things with his skating to help him get on his edges a little better.

Karl Stewart, who evaluates OHL prospects for NHL Central Scouting, has compared Noel to Winnipeg Jets forward Blake Wheeler. Noel is No. 9 in Central Scouting's midterm ranking of North American skaters for the 2018 NHL Draft at American Airlines Center in Dallas on June 22-23.
Wheeler was No. 17 on Central Scouting's final ranking of North American skaters for the 2004 NHL Draft, and was 6-3, 185 pounds at the time.

"I think of Wheeler when I see Noel just because of his size and feet and hands in tight, and when he puts it all together you can't get the puck away from him," Stewart said. "He's a young kid and it's scary to think about the player he'll be when he's fully developed. His skating is as close to NHL ready when he wants to skate. He can drive you wide and get around you, and he's got quick acceleration to separate himself from anyone."

Noel combines size, strength with improving skating

Well, he went after all only on the second round in the draft, so I guess his skating wasn’t yet as impressive as those pep talks makes you easily think of. Definitely not the same class of a talent as Laine. Most probably not even close. Anyway, Laine’s skating was obviously already NHL ready at the same age as Serron’s as he managed to play a great season right away during his rookie season. A player that does not have NHL ready skating does not get to play a full NHL season, even how great shot they would have. This is simply the truth.

I haven’t seen Serron play though, so I can’t really compare his skating to Laine’s. But I doubt there is much difference at this point though. Anyway Laine’s clear weakness is weakish legs with lower amount of fast twitched muscles, so he absolutely needs to train according to that. Someone whose problem is not the same with the legs and acceleration might need to take more lessons for skating technique to get their skating to clearly improve. In Laine’s case he can most probably develop some amount even from technical training at some point. But as that is exactly not his true weakness, he will not get great improvement from it. Some improvement for sure, but not even close to the improvement that he will eventually get from improving the explosiveness in his legs and also stamina training for his legs. So he absolutely needs to maximize his training for the areas of improving leg muscle explosiveness and stamina. When he has done that efficiently enough, I’m sure he will be still be polishing his skating with some extra skating technique training, but that is not even close to as important for him as developing the explosiveness and stamina.

Laine’s biggest problem with his skating is still his stamina. Even bigger problem than his lack of explosiveness. Or in fact his lack of stamina is a big reason for him having problems with his explosiveness. This is something that only a few posters here seem to realize, but at least I have noticed a couple of posters being well aware of the situation with Laine’s skating.

 

[Legend Leinonen]

Ok, I wasn't aware the NHL Draft was a skating race. My bad, sorry.

 

[Legend Leinonen]

Does someone know how much Laine trains with weights during season?

 

[Ippenator]

I translated to English and posted his regular training week from last season already some time ago here. Hopefully it can be still found. I will at least check it from here still.

 

[Ippenator]

Some people here really seriously have completely wrong picture of Laine’s summer training. Here is the weekly schedule from last summer for him in Rautala’s group:

(Rough translations, so sorry for possibly some wrong terms)

Hannu Rautalan valmennusryhmän viikkoaikataulu

Viikonpäivä, aamun/aamupäivän harjoitus + iltapäivän/illan harjoitus
Day of the week, exercising for morning until noon + exercising for the afternoon and the evening

Maanantai: Jalkapäivä, puntti + Aerobia
Monday: Leg exercising day, with weights + Aerobic training

Tiistai: Yläkropan voimaharjoitus + Sulkapalloa tai tennistä
Tuesday: Upper body strength exercising + badminton or tennis

Keskiviikko: Pikavoima- ja nopeusharjoitus vastusvedoilla, aidat ja kuulantyöntö 4 kg kuulalla + liikkuvuusharjoitus
Wednesday: Explosive strength and quickness exercising with resistance, hurdle running and shot put with a 4kg shot + mobility exercising

Torstai: Jalkapäivä, puntti + Tunnin salibandypelit 5vs5 (keskisyke 160–170)
Thursday: Leg exercising day, with weights + one hour of floorball 5 on 5 (average pulse 160-170 per minute)

Perjantai: Määräintervalli, rappujuoksua Kuuvuoren portaissa + Yläkroppa
Friday: HIIT -exercising (I at least think this is what it was), stair running at the stairs of Kuuvuori (a place that has long and steep stairs, probably somewhere around Turku area) + upper body exercising

Lauantai: Palauttava, penkkipunnerrus
Saturday: Recovering exercising, bench presses

Sunnuntai: Lepo
Sunday: Resting

Bumped for the sake of recent discussion.

 

[Whileee]

Here is article on another big lad who found skating training useful for himself


Noel combines size, strength with improving skating

Oshawa forward reminds scouts of Jets captain Wheeler


The term raw talent can be overused in the NHL scouting fraternity, but it might be the best way to accurately depict right wing Serron Noel of Oshawa of the Ontario Hockey League.

That's because the only specialized training Noel has had since joining Oshawa two seasons ago has been with former figure skater and current skating coach Shelley Kettles at Bell Sensplex in Ottawa.

Noel (6-foot-5, 200 pounds) has the size and strength that NHL teams crave in a blue-chip prospect, but what might surprise some is that his skating is close to being NHL ready.

"I started the skating lessons last summer, twice a week," Noel said. "I found tremendous improvement and feel more stable on my skates compared to last year."

Noel was introduced to Kettles by his longtime minor hockey coach, former NHL defenseman Jason York. Noel considers York his most influential hockey coach.
"He coached me for six years and it was an amazing experience," Noel said. "He kind of took me in when I wasn't a great skater and kept working with me in spring tournaments and summer camps."

"I told him, 'Your kid is going to be one heck of a player when he gets older,'" York said. "You hear the word raw used a lot, but the thing that really intrigues scouts about Serron is the fact the skating lessons have been the only specialized training he's had his entire life. I think (Kettles) tweaked a few things with his skating to help him get on his edges a little better.

Karl Stewart, who evaluates OHL prospects for NHL Central Scouting, has compared Noel to Winnipeg Jets forward Blake Wheeler. Noel is No. 9 in Central Scouting's midterm ranking of North American skaters for the 2018 NHL Draft at American Airlines Center in Dallas on June 22-23.
Wheeler was No. 17 on Central Scouting's final ranking of North American skaters for the 2004 NHL Draft, and was 6-3, 185 pounds at the time.

"I think of Wheeler when I see Noel just because of his size and feet and hands in tight, and when he puts it all together you can't get the puck away from him," Stewart said. "He's a young kid and it's scary to think about the player he'll be when he's fully developed. His skating is as close to NHL ready when he wants to skate. He can drive you wide and get around you, and he's got quick acceleration to separate himself from anyone."

Noel combines size, strength with improving skating

There are many examples of hockey players that have commented on the importance of specialized training and practice to improve their skating. Downhill skiers don't just work on strength, they also practice technique. So do cyclists, swimmers, sprinters, etc., etc. I don't know why it seems so controversial. Even Rantanen, who trains with the same trainer as Laine, has said that on-ice training is part of his off-season regimen.

 

[Ippenator]

Does someone know how much Laine trains with weights during season?

Oh, but you probably meant his training during the season and not off season? I don’t know for sure, but I doubt that he is doing at least very much of weight training during the season. Some for sure, but most probably not at last much more than most of his team mates. If someone knows for sure how it is, then please post it here.

 

[Ippenator]

There are many examples of hockey players that have commented on the importance of specialized training and practice to improve their skating. Downhill skiers don't just work on strength, they also practice technique. So do cyclists, swimmers, sprinters, etc., etc. I don't know why it seems so controversial. Even Rantanen, who trains with the same trainer as Laine, has said that on-ice training is part of his off-season regimen.

The difference is that Laine’s clear weakness is with his lack of explosive strength and stamina in his legs. His weakness is NOT his skating technique, it just seriously isn’t. Athletes train clearly the most the areas that they have as their weaknesses, so that is why Laine is not doing too much of skating technique exercises, but concentrating very much on leg explosiveness and stamina.

For Rantanen his leg strength and stamina were never as big weaknesses as they have been for Laine, so he has tried to still focus on those areas with some extra where he has been still able to improve his skating at least a bit more more, which has been with not focusing as thoroughly and as long as Laine in the explosiveness and stamina training. Anyway even Rantanen has not been doing any on the ice exercising until he has been finished with his training with Rautala, in fact there has been very small difference with his and Laine’s training. Laine also did go to the ice just for some times after he had finished his summer with Rautala. He just continues with Rautala a bit longer. Neither did any on ice exercising during the real hard strength and stamina exercises with Rautala during the big part of the whole off season.

 

[Whileee]

The difference is that Laine’s clear weakness is with his lack of explosive strength and stamina in his legs. His weakness is NOT his skating technique, it just seriously isn’t.

For Rantanen his leg strength and stamina were never as big weaknesses as they have been for Laine, so he has tried to still focus on those areas with some extra where he has been still able to improve his skating more, which has been with not focusing as thoroughly and as long as Laine in the explosiveness and stamina training. Anyway even Rantanen has not been doing any on the ice exercising until he has been finished with his training with Rautala, in fact there has been very small difference with his and Laine’s training. Laine also did go to the ice just for some times after he had finished his summer with Rautala. He just continues with Rautala a bit longer. Neither did any on ice exercising during the real hard strength and stamina exercises with Rautala during the big part of the whole off season.

If Laine has enough time to play golf, etc., he also has time to spend on training to improving his skating. That's really the main point. It doesn't need to be one (strength / stamina) or other (skating technique). It can be both. Many NHL players do a lot of the same strength and stamina training as Rautala's, but add skating to their off-season regimen. Laine should do the same, in my opinion.

 

[Ippenator]

If Laine has enough time to play golf, etc., he also has time to spend on training to improving his skating. That's really the main point. It doesn't need to be one (strength / stamina) or other (skating technique). It can be both. Many NHL players to a lot of the same strength and stamina training as Rautala's, but add skating to their off-season regimen. Laine should do the same, in my opinion.

Again and again... This is exactly why Laine doesn’t need to do so much of skating technique training, because it is not his true weakness. He is doing exactly what he needs to do to truly make his skating better, which is improving his explosive leg strength and stamina. If his technique was his big weakness, he would be training more of it. This is the case, even if you can’t see it and believe differently.

 

[ijuka]

Again and again... This is exactly why Laine doesn’t need to do so much of skating technique, because it is not his true weakness.

It can still be improved, and skating does more to improve one's skating technique than running does.

"It's not a problem so it can't be improved" isn't something I can agree with at all. Because Sid's hand-eye coordination is a strength of his, do you think he never practices it? No, the fact that he practices it so, so much all the time is one of the biggest reasons he's so good at it.

 

[Whileee]

Again and again... This is exactly why Laine doesn’t need to do so much of skating technique, because it is not his true weakness. He is doing exactly what he needs to do to truly make his skating better, which is improving his explosive leg strength and stamina. If his technique was his big weakness, he would be training more of it. This is the case, even if you can’t see it and believe differently.

Taylor Hall, Zach Parise, and many others have worked on their skating technique to improve their skating. If they can improve, so can Laine.

Yes. You and I just disagree about how much Laine's skating would improve with improved technique. Since many very good skaters have described persuasively how they were able to improve their technique, I think Laine can also improve his technique and he should work on it.

 

[Tommigun]

If Laine has enough time to play golf, etc., he also has time to spend on training to improving his skating. That's really the main point. It doesn't need to be one (strength / stamina) or other (skating technique). It can be both. Many NHL players do a lot of the same strength and stamina training as Rautala's, but add skating to their off-season regimen. Laine should do the same, in my opinion.

I agree about adding skating, but it’s not bad that Laine has some vacation as well after the grueling grind that is an NHL season. He said in the interview that was linked to that tennis and golf take his mind off hockey, and that is important as well.

 

[BB88]

Bringing McDavid to this discussion as a comparable is in my opinion showing quite a lack of understanding of how skating works for different individuals. First of all McDavid is 10 cm shorter than Laine. Secondly he is a freak of nature whom has an incredible amount of fast twitch muscle cells in his legs naturally.

Do you seriously believe that McDavid is so much better than Laine with his acceleration because of some kind of special skating training? I mean if you seriously believe in that, then you are even more lost in the woods with this than I ever thought of.

I still challenge you to find me a player not named Wheeler with elite class acceleration and 6’4 tall or over. Seriously give me even one name, or even better, give me a list of them. I bet you can’t do it. Even for Barkov, whom is about 4 cm shorter than Laine, and whose skating you seem to admire so much, it took exactly about four years for his hard PHYSICAL TRAINING to pay off in him getting his acceleration to a clearly better level. You had to wait that long with Barkov, but for some strange reason you expect an even clearly bigger player like Laine to get results much quicker with it? Yeah, right.

Oh, and people whom claim that Laine’s skating technique is not good, especially for his size, are absolutely out for lunch in this matter.

I threw out McDavid because your skating comments here are laughable.

Are you seriously telling us that Laine is maxing out his development?
Barkov isn't 4cm shorter, Barkov is something like 191cm himself, and it didn't take 4 years to see development in his skating, if you watched him at all, and he again missed like 4 offseasons in a row due to injuries, and still has been able to develop his skating to a strenght this day, to become a superior skater to the guy who was picked 8th on the same draft and trains under Rautala.

When we others say we want more versatility in his training, you take it as 100% leave off ice training, no we want Laine to have versatile training, which includes skating+ off ice training.

Again explain to me why so many NA players skate during summers, why are they able to improve? Why do NA coaches have their guys skate, why do they hire skating coaches if it's all pointless?

Why is it that Finns seem to be producing high end prospects/players who have skating issues, why is it that Canada/USA are able to develop players who can skate, could it be that they know better?

If Laines skating keeps being heavy he'll hit a fast decline way too soon.

 

[Ippenator]

I threw out McDavid because your skating comments here are laughable.

Are you seriously telling us that Laine is maxing out his development?
Barkov isn't 4cm shorter, Barkov is something like 191cm himself, and it didn't take 4 years to see development in his skating, if you watched him at all, and he again missed like 4 offseasons in a row due to injuries, and still has been able to develop his skating to a strenght this day, to become a superior skater to the guy who was picked 8th on the same draft and trains under Rautala.

When we others say we want more versatility in his training, you take it as 100% leave off ice training, no we want Laine to have versatile training, which includes skating+ off ice training.

Again explain to me why so many NA players skate during summers if it's pointless, why are they able to improve? Why doed Gary Roberts have his guy skate during camps as well, again please read not just skate, but have skating as part of training?

Why is it that Finns seem to be producing high end prospects/players who have skating issues, why is it that Canada/USA is able to develop players who can skate, could it be that they know better?

If Laines skating keeps being heavy he'll hit a fast decline way too soon.

I have explained all these things already many times, but you are unfortunately refusing to understand or accept any of the explanations. Read the articles about Olympic speed skating training and talk more after that. Great speed and acceleration in skating come most of all straight from the natural explosiveness that some have more than others already at birth. That is the most affecting thing for the real speed demons in hockey. Skaters like McDavid, Ehlers, Hall, Selänne and Bure for example are most of all products of their absolutely magnificent genes that gave them already at birth a much, much better foundation for very fast acceleration than players like Laine. Bigger people anyway tend to have less of the fast twitch muscles relative to their body mass in general. And also they just simply have the much bigger natural mass that makes their acceleration naturally harder. Only by hard work they can achieve a level of fast twitch muscles to their legs to truly improve their explosive power that is an absolute necessity to have before anyone can have a truly good acceleration. Technique has a much, much smaller effect in improving the skaters acceleration than improving the explosiveness and stamina of the legs. The people claiming the opposite must have been skipping the physics classes in their studies,
otherwise I can’t explain how this thing isn’t obvious.

But anyway, I was never claiming that Laine can’t get at least at some point some benefit from even polishing his skating technique. But that’s exactly what it would only be - polishing an already fine skating technique. So it will not for sure make a really great difference with his skating.

The skaters mentioned here like Hall, Parise etc. are the ones with naturally much more of explosive muscle cells in their legs, and they were already naturally so good with their acceleration that the only things that they could anymore efficiently improve their skating with, was with still polishing their technique. And first of all - all those guys were only average sized players.

And no, Barkov didn’t have 4 off seasons in a row completely ruined because of injuries, but more like parts of them, at least during two of those off seasons for sure though. Also Barkov showed only about two years ago some real improvement with his first steps. Before that he was pretty much a sluggish skater with his first steps in the way that Laine has been so far. In fact he was a worse skater than Laine as a 19 year old. That I can say for sure. I have been following as intensively both of their careers since their last Liiga seasons. And I have been so far much, much more satisfied with the way Laine has improved as a player when comparing both of their improvement as players and skaters during their first two NHL seasons.

Finnish prospects are simply not as great and explosive skaters lately because they are constantly now 6’3 tall or taller. The North American speedsters are either midgets or just average sized players. You are constantly dismissing this too. Smaller Finnish prospects like Aho or Kapanen are excellent skaters on the other hand.

Oh, and yes, Barkov is 4 cm shorter, as he is 190-191 cm while Laine is 194-195 cm tall.

 

[Ippenator]

Double post. Please delete.

 

[Ippenator]

I threw out McDavid because your skating comments here are laughable.

Are you seriously telling us that Laine is maxing out his development?
Barkov isn't 4cm shorter, Barkov is something like 191cm himself, and it didn't take 4 years to see development in his skating, if you watched him at all, and he again missed like 4 offseasons in a row due to injuries, and still has been able to develop his skating to a strenght this day, to become a superior skater to the guy who was picked 8th on the same draft and trains under Rautala.

When we others say we want more versatility in his training, you take it as 100% leave off ice training, no we want Laine to have versatile training, which includes skating+ off ice training.

Again explain to me why so many NA players skate during summers, why are they able to improve? Why do NA coaches have their guys skate, why do they hire skating coaches if it's all pointless?

Why is it that Finns seem to be producing high end prospects/players who have skating issues, why is it that Canada/USA are able to develop players who can skate, could it be that they know better?

If Laines skating keeps being heavy he'll hit a fast decline way too soon.

Could you btw finally give me the list of all the 6’4 tall or taller players whom are elite skaters in the NHL? I’m still waiting for you to show me how easily and quickly that sized players become very good or even just good skaters. Seems like you are avoiding answering to this.

 

[ffh]

Could you btw finally give me the list of all the 6’4 tall or taller players whom are elite skaters in the NHL? I’m still waiting for you to show me how easily and quickly that sized players become even very good or good skaters. Seems like you are avoiding answering this.

Wheeler is 1 off the top of my head. Elite skater from the day he broke into nhl.

 

[Ippenator]

Wheeler is 1 off the top of my head. Elite skater from the day he broke into nhl.

If you have read my posts on the subject lately, you should have known that he is the exactly only 6’4 or taller elite skater that I have admitted that there has really been in the NHL. I would maybe conditionally count also Mario Lemieux as one, but only at his early prime, and even then he was definitely not as explosive as Wheeler is. But yes Wheeler is definitely that, but any others? One Wheeler and one (conditional) Lemieux makes a darn short list really...

 

[Ippenator]

Wheeler is 1 off the top of my head. Elite skater from the day he broke into nhl.

Good to also remember that Wheeler is exactly one of those freaks of nature whom have had a great amount of those fast twitch muscle cells in his legs from the start. He was always a great skater because he has always had that naturally great acceleration. Sure he has also polished his skating by many means on the way, but he was always a naturally great skater because of his natural ability with the fast twitch muscle cells. Only some rare people are born with that and they are the ones whom are the true elite skaters in the end.

 

[Howard Chuck]

This entire conversation

We need hockey to start already!

 

[Mathil8]

Me and this thread every time I venture over.

 

[scelaton]

I have explained all these things already many times, but you are unfortunately refusing to understand or accept any of the explanations..... The people claiming the opposite must have been skipping the physics classes in their studies...
otherwise I can’t explain how this thing isn’t obvious.....
Finnish prospects are simply not as great and explosive skaters lately because they are constantly now 6’3 tall or taller. The North American speedsters are either midgets or just average sized players. You are constantly dismissing this too. Smaller Finnish prospects like Aho or Kapanen are excellent skaters on the other hand.

I have sat through a lot of physics and biology classes my time, and I am not buying what you are selling. Mass always creates inertia, and muscle mass may or may not produce enough force to counteract it. In most cases, in hockey, it doesn't, which is why the Connors and Ehlers of the world are so quick and lithe.
Big men--Finnish or otherwise, have a lot of mass to move, and there are many different ways to improve their efficiency in acceleration. The first is to limit the additional unnecessary mass gained, which is a real risk for Laine. There is no reason to believe that a 10kg weight gain through intensive weight training will equate to better acceleration and quite the opposite can be the case--just ask Morrissey.
OTOH, almost everything improves with practice, including skating drills designed specifically to improve quickness and agility. To eliminate this from a training regimen seems silly.

 

[Kaako Kappo]

I have sat through a lot of physics and biology classes my time, and I am not buying what you are selling. Mass always creates inertia, and muscle mass may or may not produce enough force to counteract it. In most cases, in hockey, it doesn't, which is why the Connors and Ehlers of the world are so quick and lithe.
Big men--Finnish or otherwise, have a lot of mass to move, and there are many different ways to improve their efficiency in acceleration. The first is to limit the additional unnecessary mass gained, which is a real risk for Laine. There is no reason to believe that a 10kg weight gain through intensive weight training will equate to better acceleration and quite the opposite can be the case--just ask Morrissey.
OTOH, almost everything improves with practice, including skating drills designed specifically to improve quickness and agility. To eliminate this from a training regimen seems silly.

Mcdavid isn't lite thought. He's around the same height as Ehlers but weights 20 lbs more.

 

[BB88]

Could you btw finally give me the list of all the 6’4 tall or taller players whom are elite skaters in the NHL? I’m still waiting for you to show me how easily and quickly that sized players become very good or even just good skaters. Seems like you are avoiding answering to this.

Barkov is 6'3 and he's a damm beast on skates, Blake Wheeler is 6'5, Dougie Hamilton is 6'6, Victor Hedman 6'6, Auston Matthews at 6'3 ain't the worst of skaters, Seth Jones, Darnell Nurse, Noah Hanifin, I'd say this kid Svechnikov can skate, Evgeni Malkin.

From 6'3- for starters, if we go from 6'2- the list is huge.

You've explained absolutely nothing on how avoiding skating in the summers is the best way to go, lot of NA guys disagree with you and they have a lot better track record on developing elite players with elite skating.
But I guess the Finns know the best, Laine, Rantanen, Barkov, Kotkaniemi, after all all of them were known for their skating on draft day.