Patrick Kane subject of police investigation V [READ MOD OP]

[jford]

If he specializes in criminal defense, I seriously doubt he'd take on a civil case afterward. Generally you stick to your specialty.

Also - I loathe the implication that this is done in preparation for a future civil case. It's from a group of ignorant people who don't know the things that rape victims (or alleged victims) are subject to, both from the police and, in the case of someone with the resources of Kane, from the defense counsel.

Getting help from a lawyer should never be used as a way to implicate someone in anything unsavory. More people should get lawyers in this situation to protect themselves and their rights. She is going to be questioned by police over and over - you want a lawyer present with any interaction with the police if possible.

There was no implication that it was unsavory.

And thanks, but I'm not ignorant. Paul Cambria managed to turn up quite a lot of dirt on that cabbie back in 2009 - DUIs, driving without a license, other altercations with patrons - so I'm quite sure the woman in this case, if it proceeds, is looking at much worse.

 

[Invictus12]

You're legally responsible for not having sex with someone who does not consent and/or someone who is too intoxicated to communicate consent.

If she comes up to me, flirts with me give me consent or is actually herself inviting me to bed, I think that would indicate her being able to consent, no?

 

[bdub24]

If she comes up to me, flirts with me give me consent or is actually herself inviting me to bed, I think that would indicate her being able to consent, no?

None of the above has been presented in the complaint of rape filed against Patrick Kane, according to the reports that are available.

 

[AV18]

'No matter how willing they are.' Really?

Okay ladies, how about this.

You all get wasted and then maybe, just maybe, I can suggest to you to buy a can of pepper-spray, take some self-defence classes and not pass out for your own damn protection.'

Since apparently I'm responsible for your actions when you are drunk.

If they are going to be around you, that might not be a bad idea given how fervently you're advocating having sex with drunk women.

Where is the limit of "drunkness" at which a person is or isn't considered able to consent?

If you get drunk and get into a car accident, you are at fault and held responsible. If you get drunk and sleep with someone, you cannot be?

That's a pretty ****ed up way to see things.

There isn't an official limit, which is why this is such a grey area. It would be very hard for a prosecutor to prove it in court so it's unlikely that someone would be charged with rape unless there were corroborating witness statements and maybe blood tests showing the level of intoxication.

 

[pitcher]

Why all the discussion about unable to consent while intoxicated when the alleged victim clearly has accused Kane of overpowering and raping her?

It's a forums... it's made for that, discussions.

And while that is what she accused him of, and might be the truth, there is also a chance that it isn't, and if it's the case, then it will come down to questions like that one.

 

[mdobbs]

If you are sober and the other person is drunk, no matter how willing they are, you are the person in a position of power and could be seen as taking advantage of the person while they are in an altered state. Therefore, you are held responsible.

This is not how the law works.

 

[Invictus12]

None of the above has been presented in the complaint of rape filed against Patrick Kane, according to the reports that are available.

Yeah and we're definitely weren't discussing Kane's case in particular.

 

[AV18]

Why all the discussion about unable to consent while intoxicated when the alleged victim clearly has accused Kane of overpowering and raping her?

Just general questions that have come up in the greater discussion of rape and the legal system.

 

[bdub24]

It's a forums... it's made for that, discussions.

And while that is what she accused him of, and might be the truth, there is also a chance that it isn't, and if it's the case, then it will come down to questions like that one.

Please link to the news source that indicates the woman who filed a criminal complaint against Patrick Kane for raping her included the allegation that both or either of them was drunk.

 

[AV18]

This is not how the law works.

It is in New York.

 

[Invictus12]

If they are going to be around you, that might not be a bad idea given how fervently you're advocating having sex with drunk women.



There isn't an official limit, which is why this is such a grey area. It would be very hard for a prosecutor to prove it in court so it's unlikely that someone would be charged with rape unless there were corroborating witness statements and maybe blood tests showing the level of intoxication.

Oh yes! So me questioning hypocrisy is advocating drunk sex with women, hey?

 

[Rebuilt]

If she comes up to me, flirts with me give me consent or is actually herself inviting me to bed, I think that would indicate her being able to consent, no?

Ifs she is obviously so drunk to not know what she is doing, the police can charge you with rape. Nobody can give consent to sex drunk out of their mind.

 

[bdub24]

Yeah and we're definitely weren't discussing Kane's case in particular.

Did I misread both the title of this thread and the Mods repeated reminders on the topic at hand?

If you want to discuss the broader topic of what rape is/isnt - start a thread and see how many participants you get for your platform.

 

[Invictus12]

Ifs she is obviously so drunk to not know what she is doing, the police can charge you with rape. Nobody can give consent to sex drunk out of their mind.

Okay, and where exactly do we draw the line on the obvious??? She's walking and talking, her speech is blurred? She's capable of flirting and not drooling on you?

 

[bdub24]

Okay, and where exactly do we draw the line on the obvious??? She's walking and talking, her speech is blurred? She's capable of flirting and not drooling on you?

Please link to the news source that indicates the woman who filed a criminal complaint against Patrick Kane for raping her included the allegation that both or either of them was drunk.

 

[Invictus12]

Did I misread both the title of this thread and the Mods repeated reminders on the topic at hand?

If you want to discuss the broader topic of what rape is/isnt - start a thread and see how many participants you get for your platform.

We've been talking general grey areas of rape for day. They haven't seem to have an issue with that. No one here implicated Kane and this woman to be in this situation either so, no one is spreading false rumours it seems.

 

[Invictus12]

Please link to the news source that indicates the woman who filed a criminal complaint against Patrick Kane for raping her included the allegation that both or either of them was drunk.

We're talking grey areas in rape general. Not particularly about Kane.

 

[Felix Unger]

Ifs she is obviously so drunk to not know what she is doing, the police can charge you with rape. Nobody can give consent to sex drunk out of their mind.

In NYS my understanding is that if a person is helpless through intoxication then he/she is incapable of consent. What that means and how one proves it... well, I have no idea. Still, given what has come out so far, I have a hard time seeing what relevance such hypotheticals have. What evidence has been released suggests that the alleged victim was significantly agitated immediately after the incident and proceeded directly to the hospital. That doesn't fit with the actions of a person who is helplessly intoxicated. I've been helplessly intoxicated, and I don't much care to remember it. But It would be extraordinarily difficult to imagine being subjected to a lengthy interview and medical examination while in that state or while recovering from being in that state.

 

[systemsgo]

http://deadspin.com/report-accuser-...source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

I like how they called out Buffalo news for what the bar owner's comments really are.

I don't know what kind of ethics clause is in his contract, but I meant more along the lines of a trade if he's found innocent. Again, it's just speculation but the Hawks brass run a tight ship and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they took whatever measures they had to to ship him off after this.

I would have an immense respect for the Hawks organisation if they did this to be honest. But I also don't expect them to have to do it because it should be the NHL to do it, not the club.

i was going to say that too but i think where he was going with that was: it'd be smart for the NHL to absolve it's member teams of that responsibility--kane or the PA can't come back and smack the team around if something goes awry and Kane has a grievance.

best all around if NHL as a league makes the stand and the Blackhawks issue a joint statement fully supporting the leagues stance.

While that is smart, I still feel like that burden should be on the league. If the league doesn't do anything, the team doesn't *have* to do anything. I mistyped though, it was supposed to be "The Hawks shouldn't be expected to do anything". If the Hawks do something about it, I'd sure as hell respect their management a lot more, but I'm not placing any expectations that they should.

 

[Mr Pipe]

Where is the limit of "drunkness" at which a person is or isn't considered able to consent?

If you get drunk and get into a car accident, you are at fault and held responsible. If you get drunk and sleep with someone, you cannot be?

That's a pretty ****ed up way to see things.

I think driving drunk involves a bit of planning ahead. You go to a bar and get drunk, but you never thought about how you would get home at the end of the night. You were responsible for planning a safe way to get home at the beginning of your night.

I don't think it's a fair analogy to compare rape to drunk driving for that reason.

 

[Rangediddy]

Pretty sure a woman can give all the signs that she's wanting to have sex, but at ANY moment before or during, she decides she doesn't want to (ie: says "stop"), it can become rape. If he did anything to force her to continue even mid act, he'd be in trouble.

 

[bdub24]

We're talking grey areas in rape general. Not particularly about Kane.

I guess I am just against the allegations against Kane being lost in the noise of the wider discussion.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just be forewarned - in Part 6 of this topic, we will no longer allow postings that are clearly irrelevant to the information that has come out from official sources in the Kane case. We know enough now to curb the wild speculation.

And if this thread goes completely off the rails, we may start Part 6 early.

 

[AV18]

In NYS my understanding is that if a person is helpless through intoxication then he/she is incapable of consent. What that means and how one proves it... well, I have no idea. Still, given what has come out so far, I have a hard time seeing what relevance such hypotheticals have. What evidence has been released suggests that the alleged victim was significantly agitated immediately after the incident and proceeded directly to the hospital. That doesn't fit with the actions of a person who is helplessly intoxicated. I've been helplessly intoxicated, and I don't much care to remember it. But It would be extraordinarily difficult to imagine being subjected to a lengthy interview and medical examination while in that state or while recovering from being in that state.

For at least the medical part, the rape kit won't be started until the victim is able to legally consent to treatment. If the victim is intoxicated, the hospital will wait until he or she is sober enough to give consent.

 

[pitcher]

I like how they called out Buffalo news for what the bar owner's comments really are.

Really are? Who are you what do you know about the situation that allows you to claim that it really was it?