Thunderstruck said:
Yes both sides knew this was going to be a giveback deal..
Okay then why are you so surprized at the results and questioning the fact that concessions are being made by the NHLPA. If we knew it was going to happen and its a self fulfilling prophecy where is the problem ?? Why ask questions that everyone knows the answer to ??
Thunderstruck said:
Which side has moved further from their starting point?.
Right .. Moving the most could also be view as making concessions or better yet negotiating in hopes of getting a deal done .. What is the other sides excuse ??
Had the other side moved, in any attempt to get a fair deal done then we might be watching the Stanley Cup playoffs right now...
Thunderstruck said:
Why did Bob take a starting point that far out in left field knowing that "this was going to be a giveback deal?".
You must be new to the concept of negotiating !!..
What did you expect the NHLPA to do start low give into to everything right off the bat and then slowly start adding things in their favour as things moved along basically like making each offer worse from before ??
I can see where you get that from though. That is the NHL tactic .. Start with a piss poor offer that can't possibly be accepted and call it your "BEST OFFER" and when your opponent will not accept it .. Cross off the words BEST and call it FINAL. Then really show them you mean buisness and cancel the season and refuse to pay them their guaranteed contracts, saving money hand over fist. Then slowly move in the opposite direction in hopes of meeting in the middle blaming your opponent for ALL the damage to the industry, and each time making your next offer lower then the previous one. When even an idiot would not accept this, ask that he be removed and the next idiot inserted in hopes he will.. keep repeating this process until you finally hit that "Sucker that is born every minute" and you get your new CBA..
Thunderstruck said:
Let's pretend that the PA first real offer in Dec was their real starting point. .
Why need to pretend ? .. Join us here in the real world ..
The NHLPA made an official offer to the NHL that could have been accepted or negotiated off of .. The NHL chose to take out the parts it liked and add them to their counter proposal, which was the same as its last.. (not uncommon to your own strategy I might add of filtering out one side of double sided quotes), to best serve your own purpose.
Thunderstruck said:
Which side has moved further from THAT starting point? .
Right .. Answer is obvious NHLPA has moved the most .. NHL has moved very little if anything .. So what is Goodenow doing wrong and Bettman doing so right then if the GOAL is to get a deal done ??
Thunderstruck said:
Pot/Kettle You not only are guilty of doing exactly the same thing, but will go to fantastic lengths to create scenario's where the PA has leverage and the owners will cave. .
You are fine it spin them anyway you want, whatever gets you through the day .. If the NHLPA hires Anti-trust lawyers in reports that say they are looking at challenging the CBA, or makes applications to get union status to prevent replacement players.
The owners caved in the last couple CBA negotiations and TWICE extended the old CBA in the past .. Who is to say 3rd time is not the charm and possible again. ??
Thunderstruck said:
Why is it that the owners keep holding fast and the players keep moving closer to the owners position?.
Simple Answer !!! Union busting .. No attempt at all at a deal on the NHL part .. Simply take a position pre-lockout, hold said position, refuse to give in on any concessions and hope the union and your opponent implodes .. Yup Union busting at its finest ..
Wonder how the NLRB will see it, if even a poster like yourself on a message board can recognize the NHL tactic it ?? Wonder if that is considered "Good Faith" bargaining. Time will tell.
Thunderstruck said:
Do you really want to pretend that Bob wasn't putting these scenario's forward because that was the feedback he was getting from some of the players and because he wanted them to take a long hard look at their situation?.
Options 1 & 2 .. Holding out for the best deal and/or hoping your opponent gives in are NHLPA players demands that they are expecting their leader Goodenow to do .. That's his job that they hired him for in the first place to get them the best deal possible, by whatever bargaining tools available to him.
Option 3 .. Fall on his Shield .. meaning resign rather then sign off on a deal he does not believe is in the best interest of the player he represents .. That is his own option and based on his principles .. Nothing to do with the players either.. He can freely chose that option without a majority player vote to remove him ..
Thunderstruck said:
All guesses up to this point, but it's blatantly clear where the smart money is going.
That was exactly my point all guesses on BOTH SIDES.. You're factoring out smart money again .. Until a deal is signed Both sides can make as many false promises and idle threats and empty concessions they like .. You still have no deal if the sides are $1 or $ 100 Mil apart.. Smart money is on don't count your chickens at this point IMO ..
Thunderstruck said:
Hope your around to perform the post-mortem when "one side gives in".
What post-mortem ?? When EITHER side gives in I win.. As a fan, when hockey returns and I get to watch my team .. Smart people would say post-mortem is now while the industry is in massive decline with possibly irreversible damage being done to the sport, and smeared through the media from BOTH sides..
One side giving in starts recovery and re-birth and the sport returning to the ice .. I would hardly call that Post-mortem ?
I'll leave the Post-mortem speeches to the Pro-owner supporters who yell to see their players return and then realize that this new CBA is not so great, and their favourite players are squeezed out of the game. That Bad GM contracts continue and with a cap it only forces a team to employ more gloried AHLers to compensate and fill out teams. As a result of that, the game itself suffers more on the ice by the weakened watered down product and the gap between the Stars and depth players increases. When a Star player is hurt and his Salary counts against the cap, suddenly the season is over for your team as they summon an AHLer to take his spot. This leads to more clutch and grab and trap systems as now the NHL has created 30 equal Nashville's in the new NHL. Only in NHL would you find a strategy that thnks its a good idea that taking down the strong succesful teams that drive the NHL industry in large markets, is the best way to GROW THE GAME. They can watch the Crosby's and Ovechin's play in Europe as that is where the better money is for entry level contracts. Then realize once and for all that a Hard Cap will not save franchises in non hockey markets and a CBA designed for them, will not better the game but make it worse in the long run.
Once the new CBA is in place Pro-PA supporters will be able to say .. I TOLD YOU SO .. for years to come should the NHL prevail in this battle .. and the results of the predictions of above come true ..