PA's turn to make an offer the NHL cannot refuse..

[Pepper]

Do you have link for these statistics? Also, why did you leave out 2004?

I copy pasted that from my original post from february 8th I think, the link was there.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

They can and will.

I hate to say it, but let year two of the lockout begin.

 

[R0CKET]

I say this is getting us nowhere ..

Lets go back to the Old CBA .. Lets extend it another 6 years and lets play hockey in the fall on time .. That is the next offer the NHLPA should make ..

The Owners have extended it twice .. I say third time is the charm ..

This time the GM's have it figured out and won't make the same mistakes again

Sonds good.

That will spell the end of at least 2 Canadian Clubs, not that a few US teams will be relocated or more likely go under as well.

This is really the thing that I personally find so intersting. The pro-player guys are falling all over themselves to retain a financial armegeddon that would place many Canadian markets in the cross-hairs but I guess it makes no difference?

These stupid players (well at least their leadership) just don't understand that they WERE already way overpaid as it was.

 

[Mess]

Really?

What was the owners starting point in these negotiations? Where are they now?

What was the PA's starting point in these negotiations? Where are they now?

One side is being steadily drawn towards the others postition and we both know which one is moving. Even if Bobby is only changing his stance to avoid impasse, he's come much further than the NHL and has given up on all of the philosophical differences.

Orr is a NHLPA certified agent and a hockey legend. He is openly questioning Goodenow's leadership.

Conway is an NHLPA mouthpeice. He has openly suggested that Goodenow needs replacing.

The well connected McKenzie is suggesting that Goodenow may need to be replaced for a deal to get done. Do you think he made that statement without talking to any players?

Bobby gonna have some splainin' to do, startin' on the 24th.

Yes Really..

First off .. The NHLPA fully realized from the start as did most people that this was going to be a give back negotiation for the good of the game .. You don't offer to give back a 1/4 of your Salary if you don't realize that Salaries have to come down for long term survival.. The question was always how much the NHLPA was going to have to give back .. They were obviously hoping that the NHL would meet them 1/2 way and they would play hockey ..

You have been unable to read any statement made to date without filtering out all the things that didn't fit your stance and take only what serves your own agenda.

Mackenzie article has Zero to do with player reaction and just questions Goodenow's motives .. All of which I might add are logical reasons without talking to anyone - particularly players .. That's your spin again. I have not spoken to any players but could have written the content found in Mackenzie article.

From Bob Mackenzie

There appear to be three possibilities.
Possibility No. 1: Goodenow thinks he can still win this fight, that if he drags this process out long enough, the owners will break and they'll start cannibalizing each other. Goodenow told his players at the outset to be prepared for an 18 to 24-month battle and I'm sure in Goodenow's mind, this is rolling out exactly as predicted. But the questions the players are asking themselves are: Do we have the stomach for this; and, what if Goodenow's wrong? What if the owners don't cave, the same as they didn't cave to save this season? It's a good question to ask.

Possibility No. 2: Goodenow accepts the reality of a cap and some form of linkage, but figures the longer he can stretch out this process, the more likely he will be to extract some favourable considerations, that the players will get their best deal, under the circumstances, later rather than sooner. But what if Goodenow is wrong, that the deal is, as the NHL suggests, only going to get worse with time? That's another good question.

Possibility No. 3: Goodenow has no intention of ever putting his name to a capped and linked deal, not now, not ever, that he would rather stall, grind the league at every turn, get no deal done, maybe even risk losing his job and go out on his shield rather than sign off on this type of deal.
​

All those are his remaining options .. All of which I might add are still possibilities as we do not yet know the ending .. We don't know if possibilities 1 & 2 are still not possible .. In order for this to end one side has to give in .. Do you know 100% who that is ?? As the season draws closer big market teams are going to really start squeezing your boy Gary to accept a deal and not lose another season, particularly if Replacement players is a no go. Who is to say that the NHL Owner's END GAME is not to just push as hard and as long as a certain Date say end of MAY and then they will take the current NHLPA offer on the table at that time, thus the multiple meetings to squeeze out ever last drop out of this and avoid the June and July 1 legal problems that may occur .


Until we know the ending, we are all guessing including Bob Mackenzie .. who is doing nothing more then presenting HYPOTHETICAL .. WHAT IF .. scenarios ..

 

[R0CKET]

Or have you ever asked yourself if its just YOUR perception that is changing and the people doing the negotiating are actually going through the process of collective bargaining, which includes a whole lot of posturing some of it designed for the explicit purpose of blocking or effecting moves by one side or the other ??

Both sides have been very careful when to counter and what offer to counter, and which to reject and offer a new concept on, which to file complaints on and which ones to file recognition applications on with the appropriate LRB. Some moves and concessions made only on paper alone to avoid "Bad Faith" bargaining claims. All strategic moves to effect an IMPASSE CBA situation from their own side of the dispute.

You know YOU'RE the one suggesting that Goodenow be removed alone. All that is all based on Domi and Roenick comments that presented the blanket statement that said BOTH sides MAY need to be replaced if they can't get a deal done, while still firing bitter barbs at Bettman in the process.

Its your perception that you have created in your own head alone that has changed .

More laughable drivel.

First point (and most damning poin to your post) is that to be considered to be actually engaged in negotiations you have to really make offers and counter offers. To my knowledge the PA has made one statement about the next CBA and has neither made ANY additional offers or Countered any made to them. Kinda hard for them to fit into your spin without that don't you think? So your idea about negotiating with counters and so on is pure bunk.

Possibly YOU have some inside knowledge about the REAL double-secret-probation offers or counters that the PA has made but haven't yet been exposed, link? Or possibley that is ONLY your perception?

The Union has yet to even be allowed a vote on any offer made, so we don't know if the majority would accept anything as yet. Don Guido Goodenow running their show.

I'd be willing to bet this...if the PA held a vote to retain or fire Don Goody AT LEAST 51% would vote him off the island, no doubt. On the other hand I'd be surprised if even 10% of the owners would change Bettman.

Goody is there and f;ing it up royally for them now, but the longer he is the longer it will be until these guys see a paycheck from their employers. That is the bottom line and the PA is going to have to accept that they F'd up with Goody & must either make him change or fire him. He has already been forced to change on the now infamous "NO CAP NO WAY NO HOW" pledge, so it is possible for them to get him to move but they had better start doing the end around threats like they did just prior to his reversal cuz it clearly is the only thing that will work to get them back on the ice and get their gravy train paychecks flowing again.

 

[joepeps]

Really?

What was the owners starting point in these negotiations? Where are they now?

What was the PA's starting point in these negotiations? Where are they now?

One side is being steadily drawn towards the others postition and we both know which one is moving. Even if Bobby is only changing his stance to avoid impasse, he's come much further than the NHL and has given up on all of the philosophical differences.

Orr is a NHLPA certified agent and a hockey legend. He is openly questioning Goodenow's leadership.

Conway is an NHLPA mouthpeice. He has openly suggested that Goodenow needs replacing.

The well connected McKenzie is suggesting that Goodenow may need to be replaced for a deal to get done. Do you think he made that statement without talking to any players?

Bobby gonna have some splainin' to do, startin' on the 24th.

You just proved your own point....

Look who has moved all the time.. it's been the PA.. so if this goes to an impasse, no way in hell would the NHL win... They barely moved at all....


Edit: i'm not sure if your for the owners or player..

 

[SENSible1*]

Yes Really..

First off .. The NHLPA fully realized from the start as did most people that this was going to be a give back negotiation for the good of the game .. You don't offer to give back a 1/4 of your Salary if you don't realize that Salaries have to come down for long term survival.. The question was always how much the NHLPA was going to have to give back .. They were obviously hoping that the NHL would meet them 1/2 way and they would play hockey ..

Yes both sides knew this was going to be a giveback deal.

Which side has moved further from their starting point?

Why did Bob take a starting point that far out in left field knowing that "this was going to be a giveback deal?"

Let's pretend that the PA first real offer in Dec was their real starting point.

Which side has moved further from THAT starting point?

You have been unable to read any statement made to date without filtering out all the things that didn't fit your stance and take only what serves your own agenda.

Pot/Kettle You not only are guilty of doing exactly the same thing, but will go to fantastic lengths to create scenario's where the PA has leverage and the owners will cave.

Why is it that the owners keep holding fast and the players keep moving closer to the owners position?

Mackenzie article has Zero to do with player reaction and just questions Goodenow's motives .. All of which I might add are logical reasons without talking to anyone - particularly players .. That's your spin again.

Do you really want to pretend that Bob wasn't putting these scenario's forward because that was the feedback he was getting from some of the players and because he wanted them to take a long hard look at their situation?

All those are his remaining options .. All of which I might add are still possibilities as we do not yet know the ending .. We don't know if possibilities 1 & 2 are not possible .. In order for this to end one side has to give in .. Do you know 100% who that is ?? As the season draws closer big market teams are going to really start squeezing your boy Gary to accept a deal and not lose another season, particularly if Replacement players is an no go. Who is to say that the NHL Owners END GAME is not to just push as hard and as long as a certain Date say end of MAY and then will take the current NHLPA offer in the table at that time, thus the multiple meetings to squeeze out ever last drop.

Until we know the ending, we are all guessing including Bob Mackenzie ..

All guesses up to this point, but it's blatantly clear where the smart money is going.

Hope your around to perform the post-mortem when "one side gives in".

 

[WC Handy*]

They barely moved at all....

That might matter a even little bit if concessions were a factor when determining if an organization negotiated in bad faith. Too bad it's not.

 

[R0CKET]

You just proved your own point....

Look who has moved all the time.. it's been the PA.. so if this goes to an impasse, no way in hell would the NHL win... They barely moved at all....


Edit: i'm not sure if your for the owners or player..

Based on what documented offers?

They have only made ONE?!

So how exactly is that moving to anything?!

I hope you arn't going to try to use the spinmaster's of the PA verbal spewage as some sort of rationale, cuz what they say they will do and what they actually will do starts and stops with formal written offers.

Did I mention that they have only made 1?

For all we know they could have really been in living it up Tahiti for the last 6 months.

 

[CGG]

More laughable drivel.

First point (and most damning poin to your post) is that to be considered to be actually engaged in negotiations you have to really make offers and counter offers. To my knowledge the PA has made one statement about the next CBA and has neither made ANY additional offers or Countered any made to them. Kinda hard for them to fit into your spin without that don't you think? So your idea about negotiating with counters and so on is pure bunk.

Possibly YOU have some inside knowledge about the REAL double-secret-probation offers or counters that the PA has made but haven't yet been exposed, link? Or possibley that is ONLY your perception?

False. You don't have to constantly make offers to be in negotiations, especially if you're recycling the same damn offer. But regardless, it always amazes me that some people managed to completely tune out all offers that ever came from the NHLPA:

(1) Pre-lockout 5% rollback
(2) December 24% rollback -- you refer to this as a statement? It was 200 pages long and detailed EXACT changes clause by clause to the CBA
(3) $52 million salary cap
(4) $49 million salary cap

And those are only the offers and counter-offers that we know about. That isn't double-secret-probation, this is public record.

In addition, what they were working with and being civil about was a rumored $30-$50 million range, also proposed by the players, until Jacobs screamed 54% and threw a hissy fit.

The Union has yet to even be allowed a vote on any offer made, so we don't know if the majority would accept anything as yet. Don Guido Goodenow running their show.

Show me where the owners have had an all-30-teams secret ballot vote on any of the PA's offers. They haven't. Pretty one-sided accusations when your side is equally "guilty" of not voting.

 

[CGG]

Based on what documented offers?

They have only made ONE?!

NO THEY HAVEN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mess]

More laughable drivel.

First point (and most damning poin to your post) is that to be considered to be actually engaged in negotiations you have to really make offers and counter offers. To my knowledge the PA has made one statement about the next CBA and has neither made ANY additional offers or Countered any made to them. Kinda hard for them to fit into your spin without that don't you think? So your idea about negotiating with counters and so on is pure bunk..

See that's your problem .. You need to catch up a bit or you're going to come across like you don't know what you are talking about ..

The NHLPA offered its 24% rollback offer in Dec 2004

It then countered the NHL's "Final Offer" to save the season TWICE in fact .. First at $52 mil and then $49 mil Hard Cap ceilings, both of which the NHL was not interested in perusing further and cancelled the season, and broke off talks..Saying we are starting over from scratch now .. and linkage is back on the table ..

The NHLPA attempted a failed Saturday meeting to un-cancel the season, again the NHL was only interested in its own agenda and was not interested in discussing the issues of a CBA just the Hard Cap number ONLY.

This current round of discussion going on now is also the direct results of Concepts and Idea's that the NHLPA tabled in these negotiations .. A hybrid version of the ideas discussed but not as restrictive as the NHL and avoiding 54% linkage .. The NHL is attempting once again to put a square peg in a round hole by manipulating these ideas into it same old proposal from day one just in a different colour folder.

You can spin it anyway you like but those are facts that can be supported via web links as a result of leaked info .. readily available for the public to read at either

The NHL Site : http://www.nhlcbanews.com/
or
The NHLPA Site : http://www.nhlpa.com/
or
Other media sports sources

 

[R0CKET]

False. You don't have to constantly make offers to be in negotiations, especially if you're recycling the same damn offer. But regardless, it always amazes me that some people managed to completely tune out all offers that ever came from the NHLPA:

(1) Pre-lockout 5% rollback
(2) December 24% rollback -- you refer to this as a statement? It was 200 pages long and detailed EXACT changes clause by clause to the CBA
(3) $52 million salary cap
(4) $49 million salary cap

And those are only the offers and counter-offers that we know about. That isn't double-secret-probation, this is public record.

In addition, what they were working with and being civil about was a rumored $30-$50 million range, also proposed by the players, until Jacobs screamed 54% and threw a hissy fit.



Show me where the owners have had an all-30-teams secret ballot vote on any of the PA's offers. They haven't. Pretty one-sided accusations when your side is equally "guilty" of not voting.

Actually you have something I think would be awesome. Open votes by both A-hole groups to get the real problems out in the open.

But first lets get the real issue put to bed. An open vote on Bettman and Don Goody. That has to be first, Goody knows he's got way more voting lower paid guys who want to get their lives back than he does fat cats. He'd be toast.

I'd be that the owners would agree to hold an open vote on formal written offers and let the PA do the same.

But the central point of this dispute isn't so much about the millions the players are going to wind up getting cuz you can bet it will be plenty.

The real issue is about control of the game by the weasel known as Don Goodenow. That POS will not go away by his own choice, take that one to the bank.

 

[missK]

Do you have link for these statistics? Also, why did you leave out 2004?

Because the Lightning were not in the top 15 in payroll in 2004. I think the team was around number 20 or so.

 

[WC Handy*]

It then countered the NHL's "Final Offer" to save the season TWICE in fact .. First at $52 mil and then $49 mil Hard Cap ceilings, both of which the NHL was not interested in perusing further and cancelled the season, and broke off talks..Saying we are starting over from scratch now .. and linkage is back on the table ..

Funny how you leave out that the NHL also provided the league with two proposals right before the season was cancelled that the NHLPA was not interested in persuing further.

This current round of discussion going on now is also the direct results of Concepts and Idea's that the NHLPA tabled in these negotiations .. A hybrid version of the ideas discussed but not as restrictive as the NHL and avoiding 54% linkage .. The NHL is attempting once again to put a square peg in a round hole by manipulating these ideas into it same old proposal from day one just in a different colour folder.

What the NHL is trying to do is come up with a concept that restricts salaries to an appropriate level and make the NHLPA happy. What the NHLPA is trying to do is to restrict salaries as little as possible.

 

[R0CKET]

See that's your problem .. You need to catch up a bit or you're going to come across like you don't know what you are talking about ..

The NHLPA offered its 24% rollback offer in Dec 2004

It then countered the NHL's "Final Offer" to save the season TWICE in fact .. First at $52 mil and then $49 mil Hard Cap ceilings, both of which the NHL was not interested in perusing further and cancelled the season, and broke off talks..Saying we are starting over from scratch now .. and linkage is back on the table ..

The NHLPA attempted a failed Saturday meeting to un-cancel the season, again the NHL was only interested in its own agenda and was not interested in discussing the issues of a CBA just the Hard Cap number ONLY.

This current round of discussion going on now is also the direct results of Concepts and Idea's that the NHLPA tabled in these negotiations .. A hybrid version of the ideas discussed but not as restrictive as the NHL and avoiding 54% linkage .. The NHL is attempting once again to put a square peg in a round hole by manipulating these ideas into it same old proposal from day one just in a different colour folder.

You can spin it anyway you like but those are facts that can be supported via web links as a result of leaked info .. readily available for the public to read at either

The NHL Site : http://www.nhlcbanews.com/
or
The NHLPA Site : http://www.nhlpa.com/
or
Other media sports sources

What a Mess. The messageless needs some help, so I'm just the guy to do the job.

I actually went to your PA site and looked up the press releases and guess what?

They have made 1 bona-fide written offer since this season should have started with this release label - PLAYERS OFFER MAJOR PLAN TO END OWNERS’ LOCKOUT.

Oh there are plenty of We rejected this and said no to that releases also.

You might be the only guy gulable enough to beleive that they by saying NO they are making a counter offer?

Cuz all they have said is NO and nothing else in writing that we know of.

Oh there was that little BS thing about "NEW" CBA POINTS on 2/15 with the following reply to it from Bettman...If every team spent to the $49 million level you have proposed, total player compensation would exceed what we spent last season and, assuming for discussion purposes, there was no damage to the game, our player compensation costs would exceed 75% of revenues. We cannot afford your proposal. So in a nutshell the PA was still on track discussing a 70% plus revenue deal for their fat a$$es. Hey Mess, the definition of a fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject (well at least that's one definition). Your boy Don Goody looks like a fanatic about keeping the 70% scam together for as long as he can, while not allowing the subject to stray.

To which Don Goody replies calling Bettman a liar (essentially) in a letter...You will receive nothing further from us!

Now that is some fine written bona-fide proposals!! Not.

I see you chickened out though on my previous intivte to provide some secret offer scoop thay you and Goody are keeping to yourselves and Bettman alone?

But that's sort-or what I expected.

 

[joepeps]

Actually you have something I think would be awesome. Open votes by both A-hole groups to get the real problems out in the open.

But first lets get the real issue put to bed. An open vote on Bettman and Don Goody. That has to be first, Goody knows he's got way more voting lower paid guys who want to get their lives back than he does fat cats. He'd be toast.

I'd be that the owners would agree to hold an open vote on formal written offers and let the PA do the same.

But the central point of this dispute isn't so much about the millions the players are going to wind up getting cuz you can bet it will be plenty.

The real issue is about control of the game by the weasel known as Don Goodenow. That POS will not go away by his own choice, take that one to the bank.

It doesn't make sense to have over 900 people vote when the owners can have only 30 people to vote and8 to look into it and 20 to pass?? (correct me.. i'm not 100% sure on the ballots needed) But who in the hell is going to get 900 people to come from around the world to vote???? <--- I like him lol

 

[joepeps]

Oh there was that little BS thing about "NEW" CBA POINTS on 2/15 with the following reply to it from Bettman...If every team spent to the $49 million level you have proposed, total player compensation would exceed what we spent last season and, assuming for discussion purposes, there was no damage to the game, our player compensation costs would exceed 75% of revenues. We cannot afford your proposal. So in a nutshell the PA was still on track discussing a 70% plus revenue deal for their fat a$$es. Hey Mess, the definition of a fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject (well at least that's one definition). Your boy Don Goody looks like a fanatic about keeping the 70% scam together for as long as he can, while not allowing the subject to stray.

That bu ll s h it and you know it.....not every team is giong to spend all 49 million..

How about this...
dam.. what if everyone spent 20 million.. then the players would get no money.. nope can't do the deal.... IT WORKS BOTH WAYS.. ONLY A SUGGESTED FEW UP TO ABOUT 6-8 TEAMS WILL SPEND THE 49.. WHILE OTHER WILL SPEND (and even if theres a hard cap at 39, Nashville and atlanta and such will spend thier 20 mill) LESS MONEY........

and plus... what makes everyone think that a salary cap will help Atlanta nashville and other bring in fans??? lol I don't think so.....

 

[Pepper]

Because the Lightning were not in the top 15 in payroll in 2004. I think the team was around number 20 or so.

I left 2004 out because it was a freak year with teams preparing for the lock-out. Even if we include that year, it's still painful reading to those who claim there's competetive balance in the league.

 

[CGG]

They have made 1 bona-fide written offer since this season should have started with this release label - PLAYERS OFFER MAJOR PLAN TO END OWNERS’ LOCKOUT.

...

Oh there was that little BS thing about "NEW" CBA POINTS on 2/15 with the following reply to it from Bettman...If every team spent to the $49 million level you have proposed, total player compensation would exceed what we spent last season and, assuming for discussion purposes, there was no damage to the game, our player compensation costs would exceed 75% of revenues. We cannot afford your proposal. So in a nutshell the PA was still on track discussing a 70% plus revenue deal for their fat a$$es. Hey Mess, the definition of a fanatic is someone who can't change his mind and won't change the subject (well at least that's one definition). Your boy Don Goody looks like a fanatic about keeping the 70% scam together for as long as he can, while not allowing the subject to stray.

To which Don Goody replies calling Bettman a liar (essentially) in a letter...You will receive nothing further from us!

Do you even believe the stuff you write? Having been proven wrong, you're still fighting this? The NHLPA has only made one bona fide "written" offer? WTF, the rest don't count because they were typed??

How can Bettman reject the PA's $52 million salary cap offer AND the PA's $49 million offer if those offers weren't offers?

And Goodenow didn't call Bettman a liar, he just called him on his BS excuse for not accepting the proposal, and your quote proves it:

If every team spent to the $49 million level you have proposed, total player compensation would exceed what we spent last season and, assuming for discussion purposes, there was no damage to the game, our player compensation costs would exceed 75% of revenues. We cannot afford your proposal.

Pittsburgh spends $22 million without a cap, once a cap is in place and all of their contracts are rolled back 24%, all of a sudden they're going to more than double their payroll to $49 million? What the hell are you thinking?

This is solid proof that people are actually falling for the Bettman Math, muliplying the salary cap by 30 and declaring it too expensive without actually thinking. On top of this, Daly is actually accusing Goodenow of bad things by presenting the NHL's offer as a "worst case scenario" analysis. Oh the hypocrasy.

 

[joepeps]

Do you even believe the stuff you write? Having been proven wrong, you're still fighting this? The NHLPA has only made one bona fide "written" offer? WTF, the rest don't count because they were typed??

How can Bettman reject the PA's $52 million salary cap offer AND the PA's $49 million offer if those offers weren't offers?

And Goodenow didn't call Bettman a liar, he just called him on his BS excuse for not accepting the proposal, and your quote proves it:



Pittsburgh spends $22 million without a cap, once a cap is in place and all of their contracts are rolled back 24%, all of a sudden they're going to more than double their payroll to $49 million? What the hell are you thinking?

This is solid proof that people are actually falling for the Bettman Math, muliplying the salary cap by 30 and declaring it too expensive without actually thinking. On top of this, Daly is actually accusing Goodenow of bad things by presenting the NHL's offer as a "worst case scenario" analysis. Oh the hypocrasy.

Thank you.. someone who thinks clearly... lol... I would understand how people believed Bettmans BS either... a team can't go from 20 mill.. to 49 cap when they could ahve went from 20 to 19083021983012938102 infinate .. without a cap.. does make sense just like Bettmans business skills... what school did he go to????

 

[joepeps]

Thank you.. someone who thinks clearly... lol... I would understand how people believed Bettmans BS either... a team can't go from 20 mill.. to 49 cap when they could ahve went from 20 to 19083021983012938102 infinate .. without a cap.. does make sense just like Bettmans business skills... what school did he go to????

Ps pitts would go from 22 to 17.7.. thats 4.3 mill they saved JUST ON ROLL BACK..........

What the NHL should do it.. have a high cap at 45 low at 25-30, a tax system.. and if individual players salary increase to 100% then they get a 24% roll back again......

 

[CGG]

Thank you.. someone who thinks clearly... lol... I would understand how people believed Bettmans BS either... a team can't go from 20 mill.. to 49 cap when they could ahve went from 20 to 19083021983012938102 infinate .. without a cap.. does make sense just like Bettmans business skills... what school did he go to????

Because caps act like magnets don't you know. No cap, no magnet. But it's an irrefutable law of physics, kinda like the law of gravity, once there's a cap, all teams have to spend to within $0.17 of the cap. I know it's true because Bettman said so.

 

[WC Handy*]

When did Bettman say teams would spend the full amount of the cap?

He didn't. And the fact that you have to make lies up to attack the guy says plenty about you.

 

[R0CKET]

False. You don't have to constantly make offers to be in negotiations, especially if you're recycling the same damn offer. But regardless, it always amazes me that some people managed to completely tune out all offers that ever came from the NHLPA:

(1) Pre-lockout 5% rollback
(2) December 24% rollback -- you refer to this as a statement? It was 200 pages long and detailed EXACT changes clause by clause to the CBA
(3) $52 million salary cap
(4) $49 million salary cap

And those are only the offers and counter-offers that we know about. That isn't double-secret-probation, this is public record.

In addition, what they were working with and being civil about was a rumored $30-$50 million range, also proposed by the players, until Jacobs screamed 54% and threw a hissy fit.



Show me where the owners have had an all-30-teams secret ballot vote on any of the PA's offers. They haven't. Pretty one-sided accusations when your side is equally "guilty" of not voting.

Uh huh...the same PA that SAID "hey Wayne & Mario, please come in here and get this season-saving meeting together for this deal we got here at a price we'll accept" only to have their goons show up at the meeting kick over the table and immediately announce "we aren't even going to talk about the dollar values of the cap until we come to agrrement on these things first"...which basically was a to say that they got up and walked out without ever having to be held to account if their "OFFER" had any merit at all.

But hey, it sounded good (like the PA was making an OFFER) on TV didn't it?

Only a sap would actually take that as an "offer".

That is why is talk is BS (on both sides IMO), let it be put in writing cuz otherwise these weasels plan to pull the old bait & switch anytime you get away from what they want.