Out of Town - Washington Capitals Stanley Cup Champions! Edition

[scrubadam]

Why is Pittsburgh adding when Kessel just put up a 34 goal 92 point season and Max is in the last year of his contract?

I am looking at it as a dump from the Pens side. If they are trying to lose salary.

But you are probably right Kessel will cost some good assets to get.

 

[scrubadam]

Yup, thats why hes out of the league at 31 years old.. We knew Eller would at worst stay a third liner. .why not try To see if there is more in him? We all knew Desharnais had To have prime offensive minutes or else he was beyond useless

my point is it it wouldn't have made a difference. Eller getting 50 points riding shot gun with Max still puts the habs in the same position as with DD. A 3rd liner playing as a 1st liner. Except Eller would of signed for 5 Mill instead of 3.5 that MB signed him too.

Outside of this season Eller has always been a sub 30 point guy. He wasn't going to be turned into a 60-70 point C. So having him as a 30-40 point guy making 5 mill or so would put the habs where they are now without a top 6 C.

 

[MaxDummy]

Eller getting 50 points riding shot gun with Max still puts the habs in the same position as with DD

50 points is more Plekanec territory than Desharnais since Eller isn't a liability at everything but posting points like DD is.. Give me the 50 points center with good D and that can play both the PP and PK before Desharnais.

He wasn't going to be turned into a 60-70 point C

I've never said he would've... 40-60 points is 2nd C territory.

Anyway.. Eller HAD 2nd line potential. You can say that IYO he would've failed and I can say he would've thrived but FACT is we will never know since he never got the chance to prove himself there.

 

[LaP]

my point is it it wouldn't have made a difference. Eller getting 50 points riding shot gun with Max still puts the habs in the same position as with DD. A 3rd liner playing as a 1st liner. Except Eller would of signed for 5 Mill instead of 3.5 that MB signed him too.

Outside of this season Eller has always been a sub 30 point guy. He wasn't going to be turned into a 60-70 point C. So having him as a 30-40 point guy making 5 mill or so would put the habs where they are now without a top 6 C.

It kind of would. It would mean our management would actually have a clue what they are doing. I mean after that 60 points season DD was clearly not working anymore. A good management doesn't try to fit a square in a circle for 4 years. A good management try things to find a solution. There's no question that after that 1 point in 19 games stretch to start the 2013-2014 season DD should have been converted into a 3rd line player and either Eller or AG should have been seriously tried as a top 6 center. Not doing that was a sign that our management did not know what they were doing.

 

[scrubadam]

It kind of would. It would mean our management would actually have a clue what they are doing. I mean after that 60 points season DD was clearly not working anymore. A good management doesn't try to fit a square in a circle for 4 years. A good management try things to find a solution. There's no question that after that 1 point in 19 games stretch to start the 2013-2014 season DD should have been converted into a 3rd line player and either Eller or AG should have been seriously tried as a top 6 center. Not doing that was a sign that our management did not know what they were doing.

I don't see it. Lets not forget that those 3 years the habs made an ECF and finished 2nd in the NHL. Are you really telling me that Eller was the difference between habs winning a cup or finishing 1st in the NHL? Thats a huge stretch IMO. After 13 points in the playoffs he followed it up with 3 is that all on MT and DD?

I agree DD should of been moved to the 3rd line, but not to promote Eller to the 1st line, as that would just create the same problem of having a 3rd liner in the chair of a 1st liner.

And one thing to keep in mind is that Max clearly enjoyed playing with DD, and thrived playing with him. His 37 and 39 goals say so. Max's transformation after his season with DD in the AHL says so. Max has credited DD plenty. Max first 30 goal season was with DD. No DD, where does Max goals go? I am not saying DD was the one who made Max score, but notice how Max attitude seems to have changed on and off the ice since his buddy is gone? Notice his goal production has gotten worse since DD is gone. Put Eller with Max and maybe Max pouts and doesnt put up 37 and 39 goals. Then the team is all of a sudden worse off.

AG was given the top 6 reigns, went about PPG until he was injured. Then MT got fired and all of a sudden under CJ AG is playing on the 4th line and never playing C ever again. If AG isn't injured and or MT isn't fired its very possible AG is still playing C today.

 

[Sorinth]

I think if you want an idea of the max potential of Lars Eller, look at Travis Zajac. Zajac early on was pushed into a top six role and pulled off a few good seasons, but eventually it was clear he didn't have the skill to consistently handle top six duties and fell to being a low 40 point centre. Patrik Berglund in St. Louis comes to mind too. He had that hot start rookie year and his 52 point campaign in the top six but otherwise couldn't handle it.

So sure, in hindsight, it would have made more sense to move Desharnais to the wing and try both Galchenyuk and Eller at centre with Plekanec after 12-13 and see how far they could go in scoring roles. But in hindsight it also made sense to realize that Desharnais and Eller were both not good enough to be top six centres, and Plekanec was a 2C bandaid carried by Pacioretty, and that the club needed to go full throttle behind Galchenyuk, and find another centre even if Galchenyuk became a high scoring centre. So even at a best case scenario, maybe Eller plays 2C/3C with Chuck and Plekanec, but it's still not the answer for the club. And when his next contract comes, it still makes sense to move him for draft picks and bring Danault into the 3C role instead.

(And yes, Danault ended up playing 1C, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the wrong move to trade Eller.)

You can't call in hindsight when that's exactly what poster like me were arguing at the time.

But sure maybe if we gave Eller the chance he would have failed. There are certainly valid reasons to think so. And absolutely if it came down to trying to develop Galchenyuk at center or Eller then it should've been Galchenyuk no questions asked. But unless you actually give the player the chance you can never be certain how he would've reacted to that role.

That's why the Karlsson comparison is made, not because Eller might have been a 70 point 1st line center, but because he shows just how much role/opportunity can hide potential. If a 1st line player doesn't look particularly special when used in a defensive 3rd line role, what chance does a 2nd line player have of looking special when used in the same type of role?

 

[MaxDummy]

Are you really telling me that Eller was the difference between habs winning a cup or finishing 1st in the NHL?

No, Nobody ever said that and you know it.

 

[Lshap]

As pointed out Eller went 82 consecutive games and put up 48 points, so to 50 points is based on wishful thinking is nonsense. But I'm fine dropping Eller as a discussing point.

But the meat of the issue is your belief that bad coaching during his early NHL career didn't have impact his career. That's just nonsensical to me. Yes lot's of players get bad coaching, and never get the opportunities, and guess what lot's of players don't reach their potential either. Sure a lot of that was probably misjudged potential, but all of it? Not a chance.

No. The meat of my point is that by the time they get to the NHL, every player has experienced some good and bad development, some good and bad coaches, good and bad usage, etc. Eller's journey has been no worse than most. Is every depth player an untapped 50-60 point player? Obviously not. After a few years the projections and hope and excuses stop, and we accept that a player is what his career says he is.

As to his 48 combined points in 82 games over two seasons, come on -- that's just mashing up numbers that don't belong together. You know very well it doesn't work that way. Eller's best seasons were 30 and 38 points. That's good for a 3C, so why is it necessary to spin that into something it isn't? I'll ask again: Why can't we simply appreciate him for the solid, effective player he is?

 

[scrubadam]

No, Nobody ever said that and you know it.

So what difference would it have made on the TEAM with Eller playing in DD's chair?

Remember this is a team with Eller as 3C and DD with Max won its division twice, finished 2nd in the NHL, and made an ECF. I am only talking about the 12/13/14 season.

In the end habs would be in the same spot with a 3rd C playing as a top 6, but I bet Eller gets a bigger contract than 3.5.

Wherever DD/Eller played it was moving the needle. Now if the habs managed to somehow get a real 1C instead of DD then that would of moved the needle for the habs. But I don't see how playing Eller with Max really changes anything that happend with the habs.

 

[MaxDummy]

Remember this is a team with Eller as 3C and DD with Max won its division twice, finished 2nd in the NHL, and made an ECF. I am only talking about the 12/13/14 season.

Exactly.. The move would have been made to see if Eller had it in him to become that 2C for the future. He was 23.. Anyways I have nothing more to bring to that debate. I've made my points.

What do you think of Ryan Kesler? He had quite a similar pregression as Eller until 24 yo. What if the Canucks never try him as a 2nd C and just say themselves ''Well this guy is a great 3rd line C, we're happy with that and we won't try him higher up in the line up even tho he's progressing every year''

Seems stupid to me but whatev

 

[scrubadam]

Exactly.. The move would have been made to see if Eller had it in him to become that 2C for the future. He was 23.. Anyways I have nothing more to bring to that debate. I've made my points.

What do you think of Ryan Kesler? He had quite a similar pregression as Eller until 24 yo. What if the Canucks never try him as a 2nd C and just say themselves ''Well this guy is a great 3rd line C, we're happy with that and we won't try him higher up in the line up even tho he's progressing every year''

Seems stupid to me but whatev

Well I just don't think Eller is as good as Kesler.

I guess thats where we will disagree, you see more potential in Eller than I do. To me he is a very solid 3rd line guy who if given more time here would of just been a taller DD. So he somehow manages to get a 50 point season and then when Max stops wanting to play with him he goes back to his 25-3o points and now we have a 3rd liner as the habs top C.

And Eller got to play in the top 6(not at C) with AG at C and he didn't set the world on fire. His whole career he has been 25 point guy except for this season where he had a career year.

I guess agree to disagree at this point. No one should look down on Eller. Becoming a solid 3rd C in the NHL, and making 3.5 for 8 years is a great accomplishment. He even outlasted his nemesis in DD in the NHL and will make more money than him. Not very draft pick that his hyped will turn into a 60 point center.

 

[MaxDummy]

Max stops wanting to play with him he goes back to his 25-3o points

Max is really a shitbag in your eyes then. Every time I saw Eller play with Pacioretty they were good together.

 

[Sorinth]

No. The meat of my point is that by the time they get to the NHL, every player has experienced some good and bad development, some good and bad coaches, good and bad usage, etc. Eller's journey has been no worse than most. Is every depth player an untapped 50-60 point player? Obviously not. After a few years the projections and hope and excuses stop, and we accept that a player is what his career says he is.

Development doesn't stop when they make the NHL, or even a few years later. I mean seriously, after a few years Karlsson had a career high of 25 points. If he never got his chance with Vegas and was stuck as 3rd line center on Columbus what do you think happens? You think he still scores 40 goals and gets 78 points? Of course not, he maybe hits 40 points, and if the coach continues to bury him he'll get demoralized and not produce much until he finds a coach to believe in him and finds a way to believe in himself again.

This idea that whatever a player ends up producing was his destiny and that nothing a team/coach does would limit that is beyond dumb.

As to his 48 combined points in 82 games over two seasons, come on -- that's just mashing up numbers that don't belong together. You know very well it doesn't work that way. Eller's best seasons were 30 and 38 points. That's good for a 3C, so why is it necessary to spin that into something it isn't? I'll ask again: Why can't we simply appreciate him for the solid, effective player he is?

If 82 consecutive games isn't enough because it's over 2 seasons, how bout a 175 game stretch from 19/01/2013 to 03/01/2015 he put up 84 points which is 39 point pace? I don't know many guys who are used exclusively on the third 3rd line in a mostly defensive role that put up close to 40 points. And if they do, then I sure as hell will say they have top-6 potential.

Anyone who puts up 30-40 points from the third line, especially if they have minimal PP time has the potential to be a top six player. If given the opportunity some will become top-6 players, and others won't But if they never get that opportunity then they'll never put up top-6 numbers. It's almost impossible to produce at a top-6 pace if you aren't given a top-6 role.

The reason people can't simply appreciate him as a solid third line center is that he could've been so much more then that had we developed him properly. Just like people aren't going to appreciate Galchenyuk for being a 50 point winger when the potential to be so much more was so obviously there but was actively ignored by management.

 

[DAChampion]

Max is really a ****bag in your eyes then. Every time I saw Eller play with Pacioretty they were good together.

Which was always very brief. The issue is that they would score goals together, which enraged Therrien and caused him to break them apart. It sounds absurd but that's how it was.

 

[scrubadam]

Max is really a ****bag in your eyes then. Every time I saw Eller play with Pacioretty they were good together.

To me Max attitude changes when he doesn't play with DD. Personally I think he was pouting and being a baby this season and his play sucked and I think a small part of it is that his buddy isn't on the team anymore.

 

[DAChampion]

This idea that whatever a player ends up producing was his destiny and that nothing a team/coach does would limit that is beyond dumb.

It's a strange coping method that is being relied upon by the Bergevin defenders.

"It doesn't matter if the AHL and NHL coaches are bad -- coaching doesn't matter !! Development doesn't exist, it's all about intrinsic talent !! Good players find a way to win !!"

Be sure that they are only advocating this out of defense. There's no major fanbase anywhere that argued that coaching that doesn't matter and that development doesn't matter. It's absurd.

 

[DAChampion]

To me Max attitude changes when he doesn't play with DD. Personally I think he was pouting and being a baby this season and his play sucked and I think a small part of it is that his buddy isn't on the team anymore.

Pacioretty is an aging player, he also cannot be relied upon to do everything himself. If he has guys like Radulov, Eller, or Desharnais on his line then that's good enough. But, if he only has Danault, elderly Plekanec, or Droin, then he won't be as effective. He's not a superstar.

 

[DAChampion]

If 82 consecutive games isn't enough because it's over 2 seasons, how bout a 175 game stretch from 19/01/2013 to 03/01/2015 he put up 84 points which is 39 point pace? I don't know many guys who are used exclusively on the third 3rd line in a mostly defensive role that put up close to 40 points. And if they do, then I sure as hell will say they have top-6 potential.

Anyone who puts up 30-40 points from the third line, especially if they have minimal PP time has the potential to be a top six player. If given the opportunity some will become top-6 players, and others won't But if they never get that opportunity then they'll never put up top-6 numbers. It's almost impossible to produce at a top-6 pace if you aren't given a top-6 role.

The reason people can't simply appreciate him as a solid third line center is that he could've been so much more then that had we developed him properly. Just like people aren't going to appreciate Galchenyuk for being a 50 point winger when the potential to be so much more was so obviously there but was actively ignored by management.

A further issue with the Eller skeptics is that many of them remember his cold stretches. You'll remember that they perseverated on his cold stretches every time that they happened, but they never paid attention to why they happened.

The cold stretches were usually imposed by Therrien. If Eller got hot (by playing with Galchenyuk, or Pacioretty, or whoever), Therrien would shift him to playing 12 minutes a game on lines with Rene Bourque and Brandon Prust. Therrien would also have Eller come onto the ice whenever Desharnais lost the puck in the offensive zone, Eller would have to chase the opposing offense. This was sure to undermine any player's offense, and in fact it did.

 

[Adam Michaels]

Bob Hartley heading to the KHL. Named head coach of Avangard Omsk. I know the tweet is in Russian, but I clicked on translate tweet.



He will also continue on as Latvia's national team coach:

 

[OldCraig71]

I think that we can all agree that the Habs missing this year's playoffs is not Bergevin's fault.

The Habs had a really weak draft in 2008.

;-)

 

[OldCraig71]

A further issue with the Eller skeptics is that many of them remember his cold stretches. You'll remember that they perseverated on his cold stretches every time that they happened, but they never paid attention to why they happened.

The cold stretches were usually imposed by Therrien. If Eller got hot (by playing with Galchenyuk, or Pacioretty, or whoever), Therrien would shift him to playing 12 minutes a game on lines with Rene Bourque and Brandon Prust. Therrien would also have Eller come onto the ice whenever Desharnais lost the puck in the offensive zone, Eller would have to chase the opposing offense. This was sure to undermine any player's offense, and in fact it did.

Boom!! This occurred in every single game, Therrien or any coach for that matter can have a very large say in what any player produces. It has been said that Torterella was not a fan of Karlsson and he never really got his shot with Columbus but look at the guy now. Is Eller on the same level as him, no he isn't but lets not forget his time here with Therrien and say it had no effect on the player he became.

 

[Lshap]

Development doesn't stop when they make the NHL, or even a few years later. I mean seriously, after a few years Karlsson had a career high of 25 points. If he never got his chance with Vegas and was stuck as 3rd line center on Columbus what do you think happens? You think he still scores 40 goals and gets 78 points? Of course not, he maybe hits 40 points, and if the coach continues to bury him he'll get demoralized and not produce much until he finds a coach to believe in him and finds a way to believe in himself again.

This idea that whatever a player ends up producing was his destiny and that nothing a team/coach does would limit that is beyond dumb.
If 82 consecutive games isn't enough because it's over 2 seasons, how bout a 175 game stretch from 19/01/2013 to 03/01/2015 he put up 84 points which is 39 point pace? I don't know many guys who are used exclusively on the third 3rd line in a mostly defensive role that put up close to 40 points. And if they do, then I sure as hell will say they have top-6 potential.

Anyone who puts up 30-40 points from the third line, especially if they have minimal PP time has the potential to be a top six player. If given the opportunity some will become top-6 players, and others won't But if they never get that opportunity then they'll never put up top-6 numbers. It's almost impossible to produce at a top-6 pace if you aren't given a top-6 role.

The reason people can't simply appreciate him as a solid third line center is that he could've been so much more then that had we developed him properly. Just like people aren't going to appreciate Galchenyuk for being a 50 point winger when the potential to be so much more was so obviously there but was actively ignored by management.

What's 'dumb' is clinging to some imaginary potential when eight full seasons of actual results say otherwise. Eller isn't a rookie; in fact, he isn't even 25 like Karlsson. He's turning 30 next season. He is now being used in the best possible role on the best possible team. You want to see his untapped potential? This is it. His confidence has improved and performance has become stronger, but he's still mostly the same guy he always was. Creative storylines and excuses don't make him a top-six forward. The only thing that makes him a top-six forward is putting up consistent top-six production. Until that happens in real life he isn't one. This 'could've/should've/would've' storyline is tiresome.

Eller isn't a victim. He's not some delicate kitten who was damaged beyond repair by Therrien. This is who he is. As I've repeatedly said: If he explodes with 50/60 points I'll cheer for the guy. I have nothing invested in this argument except a fair reporting of what he's done in real life.

 

[JuicyHam]

Bob Hartley heading to the KHL. Named head coach of Avangard Omsk. I know the tweet is in Russian, but I clicked on translate tweet.



He will also continue on as Latvia's national team coach:

He's been able to win everywhere he goes so it'd be cool if he could win in the KHL

 

[Sorinth]

What's 'dumb' is clinging to some imaginary potential when eight full seasons of actual results say otherwise. Eller isn't a rookie; in fact, he isn't even 25 like Karlsson. He's turning 30 next season. He is now being used in the best possible role on the best possible team. You want to see his untapped potential? This is it. His confidence has improved and performance has become stronger, but he's still mostly the same guy he always was. Creative storylines and excuses don't make him a top-six forward. The only thing that makes him a top-six forward is putting up consistent top-six production. Until that happens in real life he isn't one. This 'could've/should've/would've' storyline is tiresome.

Eller isn't a victim. He's not some delicate kitten who was damaged beyond repair by Therrien. This is who he is. As I've repeatedly said: If he explodes with 50/60 points I'll cheer for the guy. I have nothing invested in this argument except a fair reporting of what he's done in real life.

How many players can you name that put up top-6 production without top-6 ice time?

 

[Lshap]

How many players can you name that put up top-6 production without top-6 ice time?

Every single bottom-six player is in the exact same boat. Are they all potential top-six forwards?