Proposal: Ottawa - St. Louis

[Colt55]

How is being over the cap not a issue. Either way St. Louis could be in a bad way if everyone is healthy.

Others have suggested trading Bozak, but Bozak is much older at 34 and on a bigger cap hit at 5mil.
Teams that are rebuilding aren’t going to add that kinda hit and age without wanting something else in return that is of some kinda value .

I don’t see how I’m doubling down when St. Louis is over the cap by 3-4mil if everyone is healthy, I’m just having a friendly conversation but your points are noted.

I know the Blues fans wouldn’t like this deal but the reality is the cap could be a big issue to Doug Armstrong if everyone is healthy.
He does have other options which would include waiving decent players if they are over the cap.

Like we said Steen is done. The report already came out. Yes Steen wants to play but he can not pass a physical. Tanks evaluation means nothing he has to be cleared then has a minimum of a month to get in shape.

I get it you see a chance to get a great young top 4 for nothing and are trying hard to justify this awful trade for ott.

 

[DatDude44]

This would make more sense if it were in an attempt to sign pietrangelo, he’s gone due to poor mgmt and now this trade is just dumb for STL

 

[Colt55]

I understand your POV and where your coming from.

Looking at St.Louis’ middle 6, Bozak could probably be had with a pick but that leaves a hole in the middle 6 only for a season but Kyrou or Kostin could probably take his spot since the Blues are set down the middle with Schenn, O’Reilly and Thomas holding down 1,2,3C spots and need wingers like Kyrou and Kostin to step into the lineup.

I was also looking at the Blues on defense and see Dunn as an RFA with competition on the LD with Krug, Scandella and Gunnarsson holding down the left side.
Gunnarsson is a UFA at the end of the 20-21 season so it’s conceivable that Dunn could take Gunnarsson’s spot full time in 21-22 with either Mikkola or Petrunovich as the 7th defenseman on the 21-22 season.

So it’s just a question if another GM would bite on Bozak and a pick and maybe even a small retention on Bozak. St. Louis doesn’t have a 2nd round pick in 2021 so it would have to be 2022 or 2023 2nd if a pick is going with Bozak. I can’t see the Blues letting a 1st go with Bozak unless the trading team is interested in a prospect that’s equivalent of a 2nd round pick in value.

Bozak with 1 mil retention is worth a 2nd or 3rd.

With bozak gone the blues will be fine

Sandford orielly perron
Schwartz Thomas schenn
Kostin sundquist kyrou
Mack barbashev blais

Even if kostin doesn't make it we have plenty of roll players.

 

[TK 421]

So the Blues aren't going to be interested in using Dunn to dump Steen, that whole premise is faulty right off the bat. Steen waited a while after the season ended and then it was reported his injury hadn't made progress through rest alone the way he had hoped. Turns out he's likely to need sx and at his age that could be it for his career. In any case the Blues sure as hell aren't paying to dump his remaining year of contract.

If you want Dunn he's available but it has to make sense for STL. Pure futures works but the Blues would likely prefer a young player(forward preferred but a younger defender still a year or 2 out would also be acceptable). Any return that fits that criteria would be much more likely to be well received than attaching him as the payment to dump Steen.

 

[Colt55]

This would make more sense if it were in an attempt to sign pietrangelo, he’s gone due to poor mgmt and now this trade is just dumb for STL

Agreed

 

[Colt55]

Here is my counter offer.

Ott- logan brown

Stl- Dunn

Thats the only way you get Dunn unless a first is coming back

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If a player is healthy a team cannot keep a healthy player on LTIR.

Bryce Salvador and Lou Lamoriello say hello. So do Marian Hossa and Stan Bowman.

Teams found to have violated the cap face fines of up to $5 million, cancellation of contracts, loss of draft picks, loss of points and/or forfeiture of game(s) determined to have been affected by the violation of the cap.

In theory, all of that is true. I'll be shocked if anyone ever gets found to be over the cap again and gets even a $1 million fine unless it's so incredibly blatant it can't be ignored, because "violating the cap" in the way you describe is a judgment call by the Commissioner and there have been fairly egregious examples of violating the spirit of Article 50 pre-and-post-Kovalchuk that have been ignored over the years.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Like we said Steen is done. The report already came out. Yes Steen wants to play but he can not pass a physical. Tanks evaluation means nothing he has to be cleared then has a minimum of a month to get in shape.

I get it you see a chance to get a great young top 4 for nothing and are trying hard to justify this awful trade for ott.

As far as the rules and how physical’s go if a player doesn’t pass a physical he can be placed LTIR but can a player be re-examined on a weekly or monthly basis if the player deems that they are healthy and wished to be re-examined so they can return to play or once they fail the season opening physical or are they ineligible to play the season placing them on LTIR for the entire season?

I’m not sure of the rules on this but I believe Joffery Lupul went through the same thing in Toronto, where he wanted to play but failed the season opening physical placing him on LTIR for the duration of the season.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

Don't see ay reason why STL would do this.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Bryce Salvador and Lou Lamoriello say hello. So do Marian Hossa and Stan Bowman.


In theory, all of that is true. I'll be shocked if anyone ever gets found to be over the cap again and gets even a $1 million fine unless it's so incredibly blatant it can't be ignored, because "violating the cap" in the way you describe is a judgment call by the Commissioner and there have been fairly egregious examples of violating the spirit of Article 50 pre-and-post-Kovalchuk that have been ignored over the years.

I don’t believe Doug Armstrong would blatantly violate the salary cap rules intentionally nor would any other right minded GM but in the flat cap world salary is tight and a minor penalty would probably be incurred for any team over the salary cap.

 

[67Blues]

Blues have several options ahead of giving Dunn away for used sock tape.

- Gunnarson for a low pick to a team needing a decent LHD to pick up an injury at $1.75m
- Bozak at $1.5m retained for a team needing a good 3C/PK at $3.5m
- Bortuzzo if they deem one of our kids step up for for $1.375m savings

Lots of little pieces that can add up to what Dunn will get which should be a $2.5m bridge deal.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I don’t believe Doug Armstrong would blatantly violate the salary cap rules intentionally nor would any other right minded GM but in the flat cap world salary is tight and a minor penalty would probably be incurred for any team over the salary cap.

One thing to keep in mind is that all transactions have to go through Central Registry, where they're checked for cap compliance. If a team submits a move that would put them out of compliance, the transaction is rejected and they are subject to a (last time I recall seeing it) $25,000 fine. That's why the NHL recommends teams check with Central Registry for compliance before submitting an official transaction.

What you're talking about is a situation where a player who would not qualify to be on LTIR is left there, creating cap space for a team that it would otherwise not have. I agree, Armstrong would never violate the salary cap much less blatantly in that manner. Neither would any other GM. However, the NHL gives considerable leeway on when/if a player qualifies for LTIR and investigations into it are rare with considerable deference given to the team absent ... well, an egregious abuse. That's why I maintain that the Commissioner will never issue a fine for even a borderline situation - it would have to be (1) incredibly over-the-top [say, Uwe Krupp racing on dog sleds while purportedly too hurt to play because of a back injury] and (2) the team would have to be shown to know about it and engaged in attempts to cover it up.

 

[Colt55]

As far as the rules and how physical’s go if a player doesn’t pass a physical he can be placed LTIR but can a player be re-examined on a weekly or monthly basis if the player deems that they are healthy and wished to be re-examined so they can return to play or once they fail the season opening physical or are they ineligible to play the season placing them on LTIR for the entire season?

I’m not sure of the rules on this but I believe Joffery Lupul went through the same thing in Toronto, where he wanted to play but failed the season opening physical placing him on LTIR for the duration of the season.

He hasn't made any progress and the blues beat writer says its unlikely he plays.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Blues have several options ahead of giving Dunn away for used sock tape.

- Gunnarson for a low pick to a team needing a decent LHD to pick up an injury at $1.75m
- Bozak at $1.5m retained for a team needing a good 3C/PK at $3.5m
- Bortuzzo if they deem one of our kids step up for for $1.375m savings

Lots of little pieces that can add up to what Dunn will get which should be a $2.5m bridge deal.

Doug Armstrong does have several options, he doesn’t have to trade away a player for free.
Steen might not return at all according to Blues fans and understand that the deal is a no go from the Blues side and rightfully so.

I see Dunn as being equivalent to a couple of 2nd round picks in different years and Armstrong should do everything he can to avoid trading away a young asset with Stanley Cup playoff experience and a ring to go along with that.

What is Dunn asking for in salary, is it a Devon Toews type of deal 4.1mil x 4 or something less. Players like Dunn, Devon Toews, Weegar, Will Butcher and Marcus Pettersson could probably be used as comparables.

If Armstrong does get Dunn at a higher salary he should look for anything over 3 years to buy out UFA years.

I don’t know how negotiations have gone between Armstrong and Dunn but the higher the asking price the more likely it would be that Dunn could be moved in some sort of deal.

 

[cakeschmammert]

Doug Armstrong does have several options, he doesn’t have to trade away a player for free.
Steen might not return at all according to Blues fans and understand that the deal is a no go from the Blues side and rightfully so.

I see Dunn as being equivalent to a couple of 2nd round picks in different years and Armstrong should do everything he can to avoid trading away a young asset with Stanley Cup playoff experience and a ring to go along with that.

What is Dunn asking for in salary, is it a Devon Toews type of deal 4.1mil x 4 or something less. Players like Dunn, Devon Toews, Weegar, Will Butcher and Marcus Pettersson could probably be used as comparables.

If Armstrong does get Dunn at a higher salary he should look for anything over 3 years to buy out UFA years.

I don’t know how negotiations have gone between Armstrong and Dunn but the higher the asking price the more likely it would be that Dunn could be moved in some sort of deal.

Likely a 2x$3M bridge deal

 

[Colt55]

Doug Armstrong does have several options, he doesn’t have to trade away a player for free.
Steen might not return at all according to Blues fans and understand that the deal is a no go from the Blues side and rightfully so.

I see Dunn as being equivalent to a couple of 2nd round picks in different years and Armstrong should do everything he can to avoid trading away a young asset with Stanley Cup playoff experience and a ring to go along with that.

What is Dunn asking for in salary, is it a Devon Toews type of deal 4.1mil x 4 or something less. Players like Dunn, Devon Toews, Weegar, Will Butcher and Marcus Pettersson could probably be used as comparables.

If Armstrong does get Dunn at a higher salary he should look for anything over 3 years to buy out UFA years.

I don’t know how negotiations have gone between Armstrong and Dunn but the higher the asking price the more likely it would be that Dunn could be moved in some sort of deal.

Dunn is worth a first no lower than 15th + a prospect or a bluchip prospect.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

And why does St. Louis do this?

To re-sign Pietrangelo, if of course Armstrong has purchased a time machine. This idea is least a month too late.

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Dunn is worth a first no lower than 15th + a prospect or a bluchip prospect.

So your saying Dunn is worth a top 15th overall pick in the 1st round + a high level prospect.
I have to disagree especially since Dunn does not have a contract at the moment and his numbers are comparable to Devin Toews who fetched two 2nd rounders.

Maybe Dunn is worth a late 1st but Dunn is not worth a lottery pick, also not sure if your being sarcastic so excuse me if my sarcasm detector isn’t working.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Jaros is worth like...a 6th.

Dunn is probably worth a 1st.

Steen would require a 1st to move but only if the team moving him needed all the salary gone and nothing coming back. If the could retain 30-50% he might only cost a 2nd or a 3rd to move.

If St Louis is moving Dunn AND Steen that clears an awful lot of salary to sign someone.

Really, what St. Louis needs to ask is "Do we want Dunn and Steen or Jros/Wolanin/etc.. + Hoffman."

Because that is what would be happening with all that cap space.

 

[Colt55]

So your saying Dunn is worth a top 15th overall pick in the 1st round + a high level prospect.
I have to disagree especially since Dunn does not have a contract at the moment and his numbers are comparable to Devin Toews who fetched two 2nd rounders.

Maybe Dunn is worth a late 1st but Dunn is not worth a lottery pick, also not sure if your being sarcastic so excuse me if my sarcasm detector isn’t working.

No 15th-31 pick b c level prospect which i assume would be to transfer a contract for the other team and dependent on what pick is traded.
Or
A blue chip prospect.

Why else would blues trade a top 4 lhd offensive dmen with grit. 35 pointer

Teams just don't trade those players

 

[Colt55]

Jaros is worth like...a 6th.

Dunn is probably worth a 1st.

Steen would require a 1st to move but only if the team moving him needed all the salary gone and nothing coming back. If the could retain 30-50% he might only cost a 2nd or a 3rd to move.

If St Louis is moving Dunn AND Steen that clears an awful lot of salary to sign someone.

Really, what St. Louis needs to ask is "Do we want Dunn and Steen or Jros/Wolanin/etc.. + Hoffman."

Because that is what would be happening with all that cap space.

Steen is going on ltir. He is done. Thats 5.75

Why on earth would you trade a talent like Dunn for no reason who is rfa and can be locked up for cheap before his pay me contract.

This makes zero sense

 

[Maurice of Orange]

Steen is going on ltir. He is done. Thats 5.75

Why on earth would you trade a talent like Dunn for no reason who is rfa and can be locked up for cheap before his pay me contract.

This makes zero sense

When Dunn is resigned does that make a prospect like Mikkola or Walman expendable since they would be buried on the depth chart assuming Gunnarsson or Bortuzzo are the 7th defenseman and assuming Petrunovich is #8.

 

[Spektre]

Doug Armstrong does have several options, he doesn’t have to trade away a player for free.
Steen might not return at all according to Blues fans and understand that the deal is a no go from the Blues side and rightfully so.

I see Dunn as being equivalent to a couple of 2nd round picks in different years and Armstrong should do everything he can to avoid trading away a young asset with Stanley Cup playoff experience and a ring to go along with that.

What is Dunn asking for in salary, is it a Devon Toews type of deal 4.1mil x 4 or something less. Players like Dunn, Devon Toews, Weegar, Will Butcher and Marcus Pettersson could probably be used as comparables.

If Armstrong does get Dunn at a higher salary he should look for anything over 3 years to buy out UFA years.

I don’t know how negotiations have gone between Armstrong and Dunn but the higher the asking price the more likely it would be that Dunn could be moved in some sort of deal.

Dunn doesn’t have arbitration rights so he really has no leverage.

 

[Flyer lurker]

Pre A Piet signing maybe. Now no shot.

 

[boots legrand]

Acquires: LW Alex Steen and LD Vince Dunn

Acquires: RD Christian Jaros

St. Louis trades the last year of Steen’s contract (5.75mil x 1) since he’ll probably end up on LTIRetired and trade (RFA) Dunn with Steen as Ottawa is going to want something for Steen’s dumped contract.

Dunn is probably the equivalent of two 2nd’s and seeing as Ottawa has enough 2nd round picks the Sens would probably want a roster player back.

Jaros (RFA) is just a throw in to St. Louis since the Blues would probably recall one of Mikkola, Perunovich or Walman to fill the spot left by Dunn’s departure and keep Jaros in the AHL.

This trade for St.Louis would be for cap space and to open up roster spots for their prospects.