GDT: Ottawa Senators at Vancouver Canucks - 10PM - TSN5/RDS2 - Putting 2023 in the back of the net. Letting the Goals Rain Down in Rain City Edition

[HF Reader]

DJ wasn't the only problem; he was about 33% of the problem (poor coaching), we also had Dorion at 33% (bad trades and draft picks) and Melnyk at 33% (low budget). Thank goodness we don't have them at the top now.

I too am glad they are gone

I think you agree that the key is what to do now and some of the fix needs to address the players.

We really should move on from the previous regime but to respond to your percentages I assign the largest percentage to Dorion. I know there was more to Melnyk than just money but Dorion's decisions when the money was available were bad (DBC, Dadanov, cap, apparently goalies, retaining DJ) .

 

[Cosmix]

View attachment 795223


Talk about being in synch. Might want to give Jacques and Alfie a minute.

Yes, it is too soon to complain about Martin and Alfi.

The only difference I have seen in team play has been 1 F forechecking in the O zone and the other 2 in the neutral zone with the 2Ds.

The defensive play in our D zone does not seem to have changed. The Fs are coming back into the slot area between the FO circles and watching the puck, not marking a man.

And some players are still leaving the zone early before we have puck possession.

I hope they make those changes soon.

I too am glad they are gone

I think you agree that the key is what to do now and some of the fix needs to address the players.

We really should move on from the previous regime but to respond to your percentages I assign the largest percentage to Dorion. I know there was more to Melnyk than just money but Dorion's decisions when the money was available were bad (DBC, Dadanov, cap, apparently goalies, retaining DJ) .

Yeah. I thought about giving Dorion 50%.

 

[Relapsing]

Whatever they're feeling, these guys need to get over it and show up. They're professionals, and not even that young, by NHL standards.

They have been coddled way too much.

They're basically middle aged at this point in their careers.

I'm especially disappointed in anyone who has parents or relatives that played in the nhl or other pro sports. They should have all the examples and guidance they need to navigate what's happened and get their head straight. I was really hoping big Walt would have had a solid come to Jesus talk with Brady over the break to help him get there. If he did, didn't seem to stick.

At the end of the day, the best coaches in the world can only do so much if guys can't find their way out of the wet paper bag that is their emotional and mental state. The frustrating part as a fan is it really doesn't seem like a herculean effort: show up, do the job, be professional and play for each other. You know, team sport shit that all athletes have to figure out to find success, regardless of what level they play at.

Basically, grow up and do the job you're paid handsomely to do.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Basically saying it's a matter of will. Which is scary. There isn't much you can do to motivate these players when they have these long term deals and the team is pressed against the cap.

You ship someone out and send the message that you either show up and play or we'll find someone else who will.

 

[Cosmix]

I think this is a ridiculous take.

PD did not make all bad trades... he built a team that all the media and most fans fawned over. Some fans cannot see that Ottawa was not on many top players list of teams, and this made the rebuild difficult. This core is good. It can get better. As I said before, we needed another Giroux, but getting that leadership is just not available for this market. (Alfie can fill in a little, but we need that character on the ice).

EM has been gone for eons. Get over it.

DJ helped a lot of the players get moving. Why things have regressed, is a good question. I think, like many do, that DJ couldn't get them to the next level. That's fine. They should have let him go before the season, though because of the delayed ownership change, this didn't happen.

How would you allocate the blame?

Melnyk did set the budget in Dorion's early years as the GM.
Dorion did make some bad trades.
DJ should not have been extended by Dorion.

 

[Relapsing]

Yes, it is too soon to complain about Martin and Alfi.

The only difference I have seen in team play has been 1 F forechecking in the O zone and the other 2 in the neutral zone with the 2Ds.

The defensive play in our D zone does not seem to have changed. The Fs are coming back into the slot area between the FO circles and watching the puck, not marking a man.

And some players are still leaving the zone early before we have puck possession.

I hope they make those changes soon.

Jacques and Alfie are in a position of having to slow drip changes to this roster because they know this team will flounder even more if they do to much too soon.

It's still ultimately on the players to execute on the structure they've been given. No way in hell any coach is still telling players to blow the zone. Or lose themselves in d zone coverage. Or any of the myriad of stupid mistakes that happen every game.

JM and Alfie can and will only be able to do so much with the team as is. I highly doubt at this point that everything that ails these players is coachable.

 

[LiseL]

He probably wishes he was playing with LA right now. Talbot is somehow also having success there after his terrible time with Ottawa. Must be a coincidence.

Or Colorado, or Boston, or Tampa, or Florida, or .....

 

[DrEasy]

You ship someone out and send the message that you either show up and play or we'll find someone else who will.

Is shipping people out really interpreted as a threat to players? Maybe they don't mind being traded.

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Is shipping people out really interpreted as a threat to players? Maybe they don't mind being traded.

Then it's mutually beneficial and there's no problem. It's sink or swim, either show up, or don't and the team will move on until they find someone who will.

 

[UglyPuckling]

The thing is with weak goals being scored almost every game on our goalies that should be saved it deflates our very fragile team. So we don't really know what could have transpired had our goalies not given up those one, two, or even three weak goals on many nights. We almost certainly would have won some of those games. Sometimes a key save at an important juncture of a game rallies a team and they go out and win.
I think another issue with our poor goaltending is that they have lost confidence in the defensemen playing in front of them. Korpi and his dmen often have communication issues.
The small physicality of our dmen make our goalies feel unsafe and unprotected back there which weakens their confidence as goalies. I think they feel like sitting ducks back there in the nets.

Maybe. Hard to tell.

I do agree that the goalies need to be confident of what will happen in front of them so they can make the correct reads and get into position.

 

[LiseL]

I have to think Martin is starting to see a problem he didn't anticiapte and his statement summarizes the problem. If the players don't want to do do what it takes (or think they know better) then there is nothing Martin or anyone else can do to help them.

Usually when a coach doesn't have the room, they get rid of the coach. I don't think that's going to happen here. They need to identify which players refuse to change their ways or are not the right fit and get rid of them. Other teams will accept those players as any team can handle one player who doesn't play the right way. We're stuck with most of the roster not playing the right way. It should be an interesting off-season.

 

[LiseL]

JM seemed resigned to realizing there is only so much he can do. It is becoming clear that although DJ was questionable as a coach he wasn't the only problem.

I see the problem as two-fold:
1. Too many young players on the same roster, some never played in the minors (Brady, Stu). Not enough solid veterans to show them the way.
2. DJ fostered the current culture which now needs to be overhauled.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

How would you allocate the blame?

Melnyk did set the budget in Dorion's early years as the GM.
Dorion did make some bad trades.
DJ should not have been extended by Dorion.

Melnyk years were shoestring until we finished tanking - agreed
I said PD made some bad trades, but he also put togther a good core. MAde some good decisions in the draft. We have some good pieces. There is an issue with goaltending that no one seems to be able to figure out, nor have any media pundits attempted to tackle.
DJ should not have seen 23/24 season. Agreed.
Injuries and goaltending is a major issue, IMHO.

 

[LiseL]

I agree, but I do think that there is a flip side and that is that friends can keep each other accountable in ways that co workers can’t.

If we can get to a place where Stu and Brady are our hardest working players, we’ll be in a good spot. I’m thinking that a guy like Berube coming in to start the summer might make a world of difference.

Let Jacques and Alfie hammer away at fundamentals and some honest assessments, let the team’s new management make some higher picks at the draft, and let the entire group feel the reset in the off season.

Sucks but obviously massive changes are needed still, but we need a nice long stretch of different messaging.


Whaaaaaat???? That song is awesome, as is the movie.

Those are fighting words maaaaaan!

On today's episode of The Drive on TSN, AJ stated that Brady and Stu need to stop pouting lol. AJ then even asked JM about it on his weekly interview segment. He augmented his earlier statement by saying that they were pouting because DJ was gone. JM basically replied there was nothing he could do about that. He didn't dispute they were pouting. It's especially bad when the captain pouts. Difficult to lead by example when he wants to continue playing like he was under DJ. They both need a major attitude adjustment.

 

[LiseL]

When he played in front of a team that wasnt riddled with covid his numbers were good on a worse roster than this one. He is a more talented goalie than anything this team has trotted out there for a long time. He's a way better goalie than Korpisalo.

Gus was always the best this team had, he had the best pedigree, he was the highest pick and he had the best track record. The eye test also matches it, he moves efficiently, tracks the puck really well and is discipline in his style. Ill tell you right now that goal Korpisalo let in against Carolina never goes in on Gus. That hits him in the shoulder every single time. The goal last night that went in on Korpisalo doesnt go in he would have pushed out and been square. Korpisalo folded in the playoffs last year when it mattered. He folds now when the games are tight.

He's not mentally strong, he has talent for sure but the most important part for a goalie is maintaining focus. He's weak in this regard.

"He's not mentally strong, he has talent for sure but the most important part for a goalie is maintaining focus. He's weak in this regard."

Same problem as most of his teammates. He's sometimes weak in his positioning but that could be fixed with the goalie coach. However, the defensive coverage is so bad and inconsistent, it probably keeps him off-balance. The one thing I don't want is for them to call up Sorsberg until the defence (or defensive structure) improves. It could negatively impact his confidence going forward.

 

[UglyPuckling]

We have some good young players. But, I think it's difficult to judge how good they are in comparison to the best teams in the league. Based on history and what has transpired so far, they haven't really achieved much. That is something we do know. How big the upside is and how that compares to the leagues best is more of an unknown.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Pretty sure Daccord went through waivers with the kraken and reported to their farm system. Sens could have easily just claimed him back

Along with another 30 teams who didn't see the need to claim him.

 

[bert]

His response to the question about players being upset that DJ was let go was also... troubling.

He didn't say, "that's not an issue."
He said (essentially), "they haven't won anything in the last 5 years, not even close, and need to get over it."

Leads me to believe that these guys are pouting that their buddy isn't there anymore.

Yikes... Do you have a link?

 

[DylanSensFan]

You know there's an in-between, right?

Matt Duchene was once part of Colorado's "core". So was Tyson Barrie. They traded them both. Then they won the Stanley Cup a few years later.

Nathan McKinnon made Duchene obsolete. Tyson Barrie has been lack lustre for most of the places he has played.

 

[WallyD]

Along with another 30 teams who didn't see the need to claim him.

Isn't (/wasn't) there a rule that states that the team that waived a player cannot reclaim that player for a certain amount of time. Not sure... seem to recall that being an issue.

Edit: did a bit of waivers research. Few points I found (my words / interpretation)...
(1) Before Nov 1st, lowest standing team previous season gets waiver dibs.
(2) After Nov 1st, lowest standing team current season gets dibs.
(3) Claiming team must add player to active roster.
(4) Claiming team may send claimed player down (again same season) but only through the waiver system. Player must first be offered to other original waiver claimants (teams) at original waiver price.
(5) Any team (including original waiving team) may put in claim subject to waiver rules.

 

[Crosside]

Yikes... Do you have a link?

Martin: When you haven't had success, something has to be done

Sens head coach Jacques Martin joins the show for his weekly visit to talk about Ottawa's loss in Vancouver, to look ahead to tomorrow's game in Seattle, and to talk about the changes he's trying to implement

www.tsn.ca

 

[DrEasy]

Isn't (/wasn't) there a rule that states that the team that waived a player cannot reclaim that player for a certain amount of time. Not sure... seem to recall that being an issue.

The Sens didn't waive Daccord though.

 

[bert]

How would you allocate the blame?

Melnyk did set the budget in Dorion's early years as the GM.
Dorion did make some bad trades.
DJ should not have been extended by Dorion.

30% Melnyk, 65 % Dorion, 5% DJ.

The GM built this team and hired the coach and extended him. This is Dorions mess more than anyone. He made the terrible deals, he burned the assets.

 

[bert]

Martin: When you haven't had success, something has to be done

Sens head coach Jacques Martin joins the show for his weekly visit to talk about Ottawa's loss in Vancouver, to look ahead to tomorrow's game in Seattle, and to talk about the changes he's trying to implement

www.tsn.ca

Wow that was refreshing to hear. 100 percent they give up the blue line WAY too much. Has to have better back pressure so they can hold it. Always outnumbered in battles. He was honest in the interview about these players, they need to look in the mirror.

Listened to Gords interview. Just pathetic questions. Asking about puck luck lol. Martin's answer 'that's not something we can control'.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Where you mention our D being under pressure, one thing I took notice of in the first was how hard the Canucks forecheckers were placing pressure on our D. (I assume its a tactic they use often or maybe just to exploit certain teams -- but I admittedly just haven't watched enough Canuck games to notice) Basically they would have F1 go hard at the Sens D with the puck and cause panic. At the same time the F2 would hang back just a little bit or start tracking closer to the passing option (normally the other Sens D) and go hard at them once a pass was attempted. Our D (as do others) often like to pass back and forth and/or eventually regroup behind the net to get more time and space to assess breakout options. Canucks knew that going in and took well advantage. You are correct, our forwards need to come back deep and provide more options when that is happening. By the time they started adjusting it was too late.

That all said, the bounces were exceptionally wild in that first period and definitely not in our favor. Ifs and or buts are candy or nuts, but If the points were covered better, a big save or two were made, maybe another shot block in there and then the comeback isn't exactly insurmountable. Following the first though its hard to say if we adjusted much other than compete a bit harder or if the Canucks just completely took foot off the gas. Probably combination of both.

Someone pointed out earlier that awful goal song. Reminds me of one the Habs used a few years ago. Some kind of annoying and obnoxious sounding. Song has been in my head all day today. If that is what they are going for then I guess it certainly does the job. LOL

That ‘awful goal song’ is called “Don’t You (forget about me)” by Simple Minds, and is the theme song for the movie The Breakfast Club.

The problem isn’t the song, it’s those people who don’t appreciate legendary 80’s music.

Doesn’t help that we had to hear it 6 times during the game though lol!