Value of: OTT/Montreal

[Mackiaveli]

If Karlsson does get traded we need a young #1 center coming back.

In what world does a team trade an ELC #1 center for a player who they get a year of at worst, and have to pay $11,000,000 + a season at best?

Patrick, Hischier, Strome, Barzal, Marner --- all of those players are more valuable on their current contracts than Erik is on his.

Erik Karlsson to Columbus ... Zach Werenski + 1st rd pick 18 to Ottawa

Columbus would be punch drunk to accept that trade.

 

[Habs10025]

In what world does a team trade an ELC #1 center for a player who they get a year of at worst, and have to pay $11,000,000 + a season at best?

Patrick, Hischier, Strome, Barzal, Marner --- all of those players are more valuable on their current contracts than Erik is on his.



Columbus would be punch drunk to accept that trade.

Great

 

[Stuzchuk]

if Karlsson it will be rebuild time in OTT, rethink your proposal and post it again with very good young pieces

 

[Aspirine]

No one will ever take Weber. He's tied to our ankle for a long time. Thanks alot Bergevin.

 

[ole ole]

Cheaper and significantly worse defenseman. Don’t give me that “he actually defends” crap, Weber really isn’t all that great. People need to stop equating physicality with good defensive play.

We could easily get a better deal elsewhere.

But we all know Karlsson at best is average defensively. Defensively Weber is > Karlsson without question.

 

[Spazkat]

It's not about making up for the Subban-Weber trade. It's about Ottawa trading for a cheaper, long-term option with all the uncertainty regarding Karlsson.

LOL you make it sound like being tied to Weber and his 8 million dollar cap hit until he's 40 is a good thing and not a boat anchor. No one is taking that contract off your hands without a huge plus to offset it, whereas teams will be lining up to outbid each other for the opportunity to pay EK his 12M plus

 

[ole ole]

LOL you make it sound like being tied to Weber and his 8 million dollar cap hit until he's 40 is a good thing and not a boat anchor. No one is taking that contract off your hands without a huge plus to offset it, whereas teams will be lining up to outbid each other for the opportunity to pay EK his 12M plus

We all know one team that won't be lining up to pay him 12 mil.

 

[Hostile Offer]

LOL you make it sound like being tied to Weber and his 8 million dollar cap hit until he's 40 is a good thing and not a boat anchor. No one is taking that contract off your hands without a huge plus to offset it, whereas teams will be lining up to outbid each other for the opportunity to pay EK his 12M plus

In actual salary it's much, much cheaper than that and there's also a chance of him retiring when the salary drops a lot (from 6M to 3M to 1M when he's 38 or 39 or so IIRC) so you'll get rid of the contract if Weber chooses not to play it out. He will be overpaid eventually, especially in cap hit, for sure but the contract really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

 

[Mackiaveli]

if Karlsson it will be rebuild time in OTT, rethink your proposal and post it again with very good young pieces

You realize you just traded huge future pieces for Duchene, right? This team isn't about to go into a rebuild; they are struggling enough as it is to fill seats. Think a bit less about hockey value and more about ownership value for a minute here. That's the definition of a 1 step forward, three steps backwards decision.

LOL you make it sound like being tied to Weber and his 8 million dollar cap hit until he's 40 is a good thing and not a boat anchor. No one is taking that contract off your hands

Refer to what I just said to the other poster. It's less about the actual implications on the ice, and more about the financial implications for the franchise. Weber is getting paid half of that in actual salary. Ottawa never spends to the cap, and Weber's contract is perfect for an organization like the Senators. What he takes up on Salary Cap versus what he ACTUALLY gets paid is the problem --- They can afford to give Erik 11m for CAP SPACE, they just can't afford it in regards to finances. Trading for a bunch of futures is a step backwards for the franchise that just traded great pieces for Duchene. Weber is likely one of the best pieces that meets the organizations needs (Replacement for E.K, good/signed for 3-4 years/low actual salary) and it comes with draft picks so that they can hopefully help replenish the barn.

 

[rent free]

I think a karlsson for Weber trade would be fair 1:1. Even though karlsson is the better player, he will be a free agent in 2019 whereas weber will be under contract until 2026. His actual salary is going down and will be 3 million in 2022 and 1 million in 2026 which is great for a cap team. Also the cap might be like 95 million by then so 7 million will be like nothing.

 

[72hockey guy]

In actual salary it's much, much cheaper than that and there's also a chance of him retiring when the salary drops a lot (from 6M to 3M to 1M when he's 38 or 39 or so IIRC) so you'll get rid of the contract if Weber chooses not to play it out. He will be overpaid eventually, especially in cap hit, for sure but the contract really isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

in tems of todays NHL actual salary isnt as important as cap hit however, fortunately montreal isnt stuck with any recapture penalties. but they are stuck with the cap hit

 

[72hockey guy]

I think a karlsson for Weber trade would be fair 1:1. Even though karlsson is the better player, he will be a free agent in 2019 whereas weber will be under contract until 2026. His actual salary is going down and will be 3 million in 2022 and 1 million in 2026 which is great for a cap team. Also the cap might be like 95 million by then so 7 million will be like nothing.

that is wrong, the cap hit will still be 7.5M it might be great for a cash strapped team who needs to get to the cap floor, but thats not good for a cap team

 

[Spazkat]

Refer to what I just said to the other poster. It's less about the actual implications on the ice, and more about the financial implications for the franchise. Weber is getting paid half of that in actual salary. Ottawa never spends to the cap, and Weber's contract is perfect for an organization like the Senators. What he takes up on Salary Cap versus what he ACTUALLY gets paid is the problem --- They can afford to give Erik 11m for CAP SPACE, they just can't afford it in regards to finances. Trading for a bunch of futures is a step backwards for the franchise that just traded great pieces for Duchene. Weber is likely one of the best pieces that meets the organizations needs (Replacement for E.K, good/signed for 3-4 years/low actual salary) and it comes with draft picks so that they can hopefully help replenish the barn.

There are a few faulty assumptions in this.
1) Ottawa is having no problem reaching the cap floor... you may have them confused with Arizona. This means that while they *could* take on Weber's contract, they have no actual need to and there is no real benefit and multiple negatives for them for doing so.

2) There is a huge difference between not being able to afford the highest paid defenseman in the league and resorting taking on bad contracts just to save cash and ice a team. They seemed perfectly willing to re-sign him when they thought he would take a bit of a hometown discount. It's reasonable to infer from this that they would be good with paying something in the 8-8.5M range. There are a ton of very good options younger than Weber in that price range that teams would be glad to exchange for EK.

3) You're completely overlooking the fact that the Weber contract extends until he 40. That's a huge component of what makes that contract such an albatross.

 

[David Suzuki]

Cheaper and significantly worse defenseman. Don’t give me that “he actually defends” crap, Weber really isn’t all that great. People need to stop equating physicality with good defensive play.

We could easily get a better deal elsewhere.

Amazing you have an account and here and don't watch hockey just incredible commitment.

 

[David Suzuki]

Erik Karlsson to Columbus ... Zach Werenski + 1st rd pick 18 to Ottawa

Zero chance Columbus does that

Trade a young top 2 D and a first in a deep draft for a guy with one year of control left after this?

 

[rent free]

that is wrong, the cap hit will still be 7.5M it might be great for a cash strapped team who needs to get to the cap floor, but thats not good for a cap team

yah thats what i meant

 

[Bileur]

Amazing you have an account and here and don't watch hockey just incredible commitment.

I can’t even respond to this since you didn’t make it clear which part of my post you disagree with. I presume it’s with the part about physicality and defensive play because the vast majority of fans now understand that Karlsson is a much better defenseman than Weber.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Shea weber has 8 years left on his deal. His cap hit is nearly 8 million. His actual cost over those 8 years is 30 million. That's less than 4 million per year in actual spending

Your owner is cheap. He isn't at the bottom of nhl cap expenditure like he was a few years ago but he does care about how much he spends on his team.

Shea Weber at less than 4 million may look very tempting to him. Mind you there would have to be players and picks added to Weber but as a basis for a trade it could work

In a equal and fair nhl Ottawa keeps Karlsson, every team spends the same budget, travel time is the same for every team, and each nhl team has their players taxed at the same amount. It isn't though.

You're being disingenuous about Weber's remaining salary. Yes, he's owed an average of 4 million dollars per season, but how likely is he to stick around and grind out 82 NHL games a season+potentially playoffs for 1M per during the last 3 years of his deal, or even for 3M per?

Weber makes 6M per season for the next 4 years. Which for what he brings, isn't a huge discount.

Here's the problem though. Weber is not in Karlsson's league in terms of being a top 5-10 D in the league, and will only decline further. So proposing that the Senators would be happy to pay a declining Weber 6M instead of paying Karlsson franchise money isn't really the same equivalent.

 

[Hockey down under]

You're being disingenuous about Weber's remaining salary. Yes, he's owed an average of 4 million dollars per season, but how likely is he to stick around and grind out 82 NHL games a season+potentially playoffs for 1M per during the last 3 years of his deal, or even for 3M per?

Weber makes 6M per season for the next 4 years. Which for what he brings, isn't a huge discount.

Here's the problem though. Weber is not in Karlsson's league in terms of being a top 5-10 D in the league, and will only decline further. So proposing that the Senators would be happy to pay a declining Weber 6M instead of paying Karlsson franchise money isn't really the same equivalent.

Ahh there's no denying the plus attached to Weber would have to be significant.

I'm not saying it would be a smart move to trade off the best defensemen in the league. It's simply something I can see happening. The owner of Ottawa is wrongfully getting involved in transactions the club makes. Turris said management wanted to sign him but Melnyk decided against it.

If the owner is getting involved and has a previous history of being a cheapskate, then a Weber ++ for Karlsson is possible imo.

For what it's worth Weber has 16 points in 24 games so far this year. He's also played 78-79 games the last 4 years. He's definitely going to decline but even at the end of his contract he'll likely still at the very least be a serviceable bottom pairing defensemen unless injuries pile up.

Chara's 40 years old and still gets used as a top pairing D. Obviously Chara>Weber but if Weber stays healthy he could remain good for many years still

 

[50 in 07]

Ahh there's no denying the plus attached to Weber would have to be significant.

I'm not saying it would be a smart move to trade off the best defensemen in the league. It's simply something I can see happening. The owner of Ottawa is wrongfully getting involved in transactions the club makes. Turris said management wanted to sign him but Melnyk decided against it.

If the owner is getting involved and has a previous history of being a cheapskate, then a Weber ++ for Karlsson is possible imo.

For what it's worth Weber has 16 points in 24 games so far this year. He's also played 78-79 games the last 4 years. He's definitely going to decline but even at the end of his contract he'll likely still at the very least be a serviceable bottom pairing defensemen unless injuries pile up.

Chara's 40 years old and still gets used as a top pairing D. Obviously Chara>Weber but if Weber stays healthy he could remain good for many years still

Okay so at that point you're talking about having traded Karlsson, generally regarded by most as the #1 D in the league and #3 player in the world, for a top 4 D declining to bottom pairing.

Money aside you see how that just makes literally no sense for Ottawa? Saying Weber++ for Karlsson implies Weber would be the center piece and most valuable asset in the package. Said trade would already be atrocious now, and would only continue to get worse as Weber declined.

 

[Hockey down under]

Okay so at that point you're talking about having traded Karlsson, generally regarded by most as the #1 D in the league and #3 player in the world, for a top 4 D declining to bottom pairing.

Money aside you see how that just makes literally no sense for Ottawa? Saying Weber++ for Karlsson implies Weber would be the center piece and most valuable asset in the package. Said trade would already be atrocious now, and would only continue to get worse as Weber declined.

OK I guess I didn't put down enough pluses to get my point across. Karlsson is the #1 dman in my books. The add to Weber would have to be enormous to peek the interest of Ottawa.

That said I think you are under selling Weber. Calling him a top 4D declining to bottom pairing his harsh. 16 points in 25 games on a team that's having trouble scoring is pretty good and worthy of being called a 1D. Watching the Canadiens while he's been hurt, you can tell how much they rely on him back there. They haven't looked the same with him out.

As I said before, if it wasn't for Melnyk there would no chance the team considers giving up Karlsson. It is for that reason alone I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Karlsson is moved

 

[Mackiaveli]

Karlsson is a much better defenseman than Weber.

I've read some wrong stuff in my lifetime, but that's ULTRA wrong.

I am a huge fan of Subban, to the point where I bought a Subban Nashville jersey the day he was traded. Subban was always defensively better than Erik, and Weber is significantly better in his own end than Subban was.

I get the joy of watching the Habs forwards make Erik look like a bottom pairing D-Man quite regularly. I don't want to say he's BRUTAL in his own end, but he does some pretty stupid stuff. Offensively, and for transitions, he is the best d-man in the League with Doughty being a close second. But in his own end, it's not there.

being a top 5-10 D in the league

In order

Doughty
Burns
Hedman
EK
Subban
Pietrangelo
Weber
Josi
Keith
Letang
OEL
McDonagh

At worst, Weber is a top 10 D-Man

would already be atrocious now

You're not getting a huge package for a year and a half of a player. If E.K was signed, or an RFA, his value would be insane --- but he's not.

 

[Not Jared Cowen]

I've read some wrong stuff in my lifetime, but that's ULTRA wrong.

I am a huge fan of Subban, to the point where I bought a Subban Nashville jersey the day he was traded. Subban was always defensively better than Erik, and Weber is significantly better in his own end than Subban was.

I get the joy of watching the Habs forwards make Erik look like a bottom pairing D-Man quite regularly. I don't want to say he's BRUTAL in his own end, but he does some pretty stupid stuff. Offensively, and for transitions, he is the best d-man in the League with Doughty being a close second. But in his own end, it's not there.



In order

Doughty
Burns
Hedman
EK
Subban
Pietrangelo
Weber
Josi
Keith
Letang
OEL
McDonagh

At worst, Weber is a top 10 D-Man



You're not getting a huge package for a year and a half of a player. If E.K was signed, or an RFA, his value would be insane --- but he's not.

You're not going to find many people that agree Weber is better than Josi or Keith.

Also, giving a team two cup runs with the best defenseman in the league who just last year carried a very mediocre supporting cast to within one goal from a SCF almost singlehandedly is very, very valuable.

Also lol at any list that's 'in order' and has EK as the FOURTH best defenseman in the league (Burns? Really?). Go home, you're drunk.

 

[Hockey down under]

Truthfully no team will acquire Karlsson with the risk he walks in a year and a half. A trade would have to occur next year.

As for Weber's placing in terms of Dman, I'd put him behind Josi Keith and OEL. I'd have him behind Letang as well but Letang is injured so often it hurts his value. Weber would be somewhere in the top 11-20 Dmen in my opinion

 

[Bileur]

I've read some wrong stuff in my lifetime, but that's ULTRA wrong.

I am a huge fan of Subban, to the point where I bought a Subban Nashville jersey the day he was traded. Subban was always defensively better than Erik, and Weber is significantly better in his own end than Subban was.

I get the joy of watching the Habs forwards make Erik look like a bottom pairing D-Man quite regularly. I don't want to say he's BRUTAL in his own end, but he does some pretty stupid stuff. Offensively, and for transitions, he is the best d-man in the League with Doughty being a close second. But in his own end, it's not there.



In order

Doughty
Burns
Hedman
EK
Subban
Pietrangelo
Weber
Josi
Keith
Letang
OEL
McDonagh

At worst, Weber is a top 10 D-Man



You're not getting a huge package for a year and a half of a player. If E.K was signed, or an RFA, his value would be insane --- but he's not.

That’s funny because watching Habs-Sens games I was much more concerned with PK on the ice than I was with Weber.

Other than the PP we don’t have much to worry about with Shea.

He’s vulnerable, particularly in transition where guys like Dzingel and Hoffman can expose his skating.

Weber is on the decline. I can certainly see an argument that he’s outside he top 10.

Heathy Karlsson is the consensus #1 in the league. If you don’t agree, you’re just wrong.